20 Sacks 2013 vs 13 sacks 2014

AzPatsFan said:

Belichick set out to upgrade the interior O-line, drafted the talent to do so, has played that talent early, along with a pair of Dante's PS UDFA projects, and the 2014 13 versus 2013 20 sack results speak for themselves. The pass blocking is improved.

Why is it unexpected for Belichick to rebuild on the fly, successfully? He has done so early in the season, repeatedly.

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And yet you've repeatedly stated that you believe that Belichick purposely allowed the Jets to control the game clock/TOP and to run the ball down our throats because he knew that we'd score quickly in "3-4 plays," so that "Brady wouldn't be killed back there?"

Which is it? Do you believe that the OL has improved? Or do you believe that one of the best coaches of all-time would play scared and hope that they could score quickly on very limited opportunities?

We should let it go after you provide an explanation, because we obviously have a difference of opinions on this one.

AndyJohnson said:

How can 7 games compared to 7 games not be a good measurement when you are comparing the first 7 games this year to the first 7 last year?
It's 100% of the information.

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Really, since when do you go purely on statistics? You are arguing that the offense is more productive, I agree. However, I do not agree that tells us this year's line is more effective than last year's. That's a huge leap.

Last season, our offense began in a complete state of disarray without any real reliable weapons. Amendola got injured in the first game of the season, and Brady was left with a group of rookies and Edelman, who had only had 20 catches the year before. Gronkowski - our best offensive player - was not playing. Of the rookies from last year, Thompkins is on the Raiders, Dobson is now inactive in favor of LaFell, and Boyce is on the PS. It was not an NFL ready group.

This season, Gronk is back, and while he is only now back to himself, we've had him the whole year. The offensive production - as it did last year - directly and dramatically correlates to how much he plays. We have Edelman now established as a premiere slot receiver. We have a veteran WR with a camp under his belt.

Our weapons are better, and that's the main reason why our production is better. It does not say that the line play is better than worse, that information is not revealed in your statistics.

shmessy said:

Anyone who cannot see that there has been marked improvement (against 3 VERY good DL's, no less) is simply not watching.

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To take your thought one step further, this is even more impressive considering the fact that it's been done with the likes of backup OL (Devey, Kline, Cannon).

When Stork and Connelly return to health, the continuity should improve even more.

AzPatsFan said:

Why is it unexpected for Belichick to rebuild on the fly, successfully? He has done so early in the season, repeatedly.

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It's not. But Devey & Kline are not the plan, they are not the rebuild. Stork & Fleming are. Devey was a stopgap gone wrong, and he has been truly poor all season. Kline hasn't been good either, and the team never called upon him even in spite of all the other interior struggles. The last two games, we've had to make do with those two guys, but let's not pretend like they are part of the master plan. They are bound for the bench as soon as Stork, Connolly or Fleming are ready.

What's happened is that the offense as a whole has executed better, even though the guard play has continued to be a problem. People look at the increased production and incorrectly assume the line is fixed, when at least two guys who will be starting later in the season are injured right now.

BradyManny said:

I do not agree that tells us this year's line is more effective than last year's. That's a huge leap.

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BradyManny--whether or not you agree specifically on whether or not the line has improved upon 2013's, I think we can all agree that things have looked much improved on the first 3-4 games.

I can respect your opinion that you aren't totally sold on the 2013 vs. 2014 OL comparison and feel as though improved targets/options are a bigger part of the equation.

When Stork/Connelly return, we may see some better proof of progress and continuity as the season moves on, and that may help to sway your opinion.

supafly said:

When Stork/Connelly return, we may see some better proof of progress and continuity as the season moves on, and that may help to sway your opinion.

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My opinion is already swayed on that 5: I have confidence in the Solder-Connolly-Stork-Wendell-Vollmer line - it is going to be a good line. Solder has been playing better, Connolly has never been the problem, neither has Vollmer, Stork has looked good in his limited time, and Wendell has looked good at guard.

That's just not the line we've had out the last two weeks, and people want to forget Devey & Kline are out there.

BradyManny said:

We can have a conversation about it. What do you think the tape has said?

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First neither of us have analyzed and graded the play of the o lineman this year or last so "what the tape says" is a poor question.
Second from that incomplete view it shows what the results and production do, that the OL needs work but it is better than last years was to this point in the season.

BradyManny said:

Really, since when do you go purely on statistics? You are arguing that the offense is more productive, I agree. However, I do not agree that tells us this year's line is more effective than last year's. That's a huge leap.

Last season, our offense began in a complete state of disarray without any real reliable weapons. Amendola got injured in the first game of the season, and Brady was left with a group of rookies and Edelman, who had only had 20 catches the year before. Gronkowski - our best offensive player - was not playing. Of the rookies from last year, Thompkins is on the Raiders, Dobson is now inactive in favor of LaFell, and Boyce is on the PS. It was not an NFL ready group.

This season, Gronk is back, and while he is only now back to himself, we've had him the whole year. The offensive production - as it did last year - directly and dramatically correlates to how much he plays. We have Edelman now established as a premiere slot receiver. We have a veteran WR with a camp under his belt.

Our weapons are better, and that's the main reason why our production is better. It does not say that the line play is better than worse, that information is not revealed in your statistics.

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The protection is better. Edelman is the same guy he was a year ago.
Yes half a gronk is better than no gronk but that is hardly the entire difference. You seem to have forgotten how bad the OL was last sept and October.

BradyManny said:

Really, since when do you go purely on statistics? You are arguing that the offense is more productive, I agree. However, I do not agree that tells us this year's line is more effective than last year's. That's a huge leap.

Last season, our offense began in a complete state of disarray without any real reliable weapons. Amendola got injured in the first game of the season, and Brady was left with a group of rookies and Edelman, who had only had 20 catches the year before. Gronkowski - our best offensive player - was not playing. Of the rookies from last year, Thompkins is on the Raiders, Dobson is now inactive in favor of LaFell, and Boyce is on the PS. It was not an NFL ready group.

This season, Gronk is back, and while he is only now back to himself, we've had him the whole year. The offensive production - as it did last year - directly and dramatically correlates to how much he plays. We have Edelman now established as a premiere slot receiver. We have a veteran WR with a camp under his belt.

Our weapons are better, and that's the main reason why our production is better. It does not say that the line play is better than worse, that information is not revealed in your statistics.

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"Purely stats"? What are you talking about?
It's about what actually happens on the football field. The patriot offense had been better I far than to this point last year. A big part of that is better pass blocking and production on the field shows that.
You sound like you would rather have worse results with a bag full of excuses.

BradyManny said:

It's not. But Devey & Kline are not the plan, they are not the rebuild. Stork & Fleming are. Devey was a stopgap gone wrong, and he has been truly poor all season. Kline hasn't been good either, and the team never called upon him even in spite of all the other interior struggles. The last two games, we've had to make do with those two guys, but let's not pretend like they are part of the master plan. They are bound for the bench as soon as Stork, Connolly or Fleming are ready.

What's happened is that the offense as a whole has executed better, even though the guard play has continued to be a problem. People look at the increased production and incorrectly assume the line is fixed, when at least two guys who will be starting later in the season are injured right now.

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Actually Devey and Kline played pretty well the last two games.

New England Patriots Offense

NFL Team First Downs per Game
2014 - 19.7, 2013 - 23.3

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/first-downs-per-game

NFL Team Yards per Pass Attempt
2014 - 6.7, 2013 - 6.6

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-pass-attempt

NFL Team Yards per Completion
2014 - 10.8, 2013 - 10.9

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-completion

NFL Team Yards per Rush Attempt
2014 - 3.7, 2013 - 4.4

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-rush-attempt

AndyJohnson said:

The protection is better. Edelman is the same guy he was a year ago.
Yes half a gronk is better than no gronk but that is hardly the entire difference. You seem to have forgotten how bad the OL was last sept and October.

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Maybe I am forgetting the OL play last season. But we'll have to agree to disagree on Devey & Kline.

And I think you are underestimating Gronk's impact. We again learn that we're probably a middle of the pack offense without him fully healthy, but a top one with him fully healthy.

AndyJohnson said:

You sound like you would rather have worse results with a bag full of excuses.

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I'd just rather call a spade a spade. The OL unit we have right now has two backups in there, without a lot of experience. The offense has excelled of late thanks to the impact of its star players in Brady & Gronk, as well it should. They are paid to bring up the level of play of the guys around them.

ATippett56 said:

New England Patriots Offense

NFL Team First Downs per Game
2014 - 19.7, 2013 - 23.3

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/first-downs-per-game

NFL Team Yards per Pass Attempt
2014 - 6.7, 2013 - 6.6

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-pass-attempt

NFL Team Yards per Completion
2014 - 10.8, 2013 - 10.9

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-completion

NFL Team Yards per Rush Attempt
2014 - 3.7, 2013 - 4.4

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-rush-attempt

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That doesn't compare the first 7 ges to the first 7 games which was the discussion.

BradyManny said:

I'd just rather call a spade a spade. The OL unit we have right now has two backups in there, without a lot of experience. The offense has excelled of late thanks to the impact of its star players in Brady & Gronk, as well it should. They are paid to bring up the level of play of the guys around them.

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And when the OL sucks they cannot overcome it.
You have a preconceived opinion that you are ignoring the facts because they don't fit it.

BradyManny said:

Maybe I am forgetting the OL play last season. But we'll have to agree to disagree on Devey & Kline.

And I think you are underestimating Gronk's impact. We again learn that we're probably a middle of the pack offense without him fully healthy, but a top one with him fully healthy.

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Then you should go back and watch them play theses at two games without thinking they sucked because you think they suck.

supafly said:

And yet you've repeatedly stated that you believe that Belichick purposely allowed the Jets to control the game clock/TOP and to run the ball down our throats because he knew that we'd score quickly in "3-4 plays," so that "Brady wouldn't be killed back there?"

Which is it? Do you believe that the OL has improved? Or do you believe that one of the best coaches of all-time would play scared and hope that they could score quickly on very limited opportunities?

We should let it go after you provide an explanation, because we obviously have a difference of opinions on this one.

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Yes I said the pass blocking of the starting crew of Solder, Connoly, Stork. Wendell/Flemming, Vollmer is improved; and possibly even on run blocking too.

But that line was unavailable to play against the Jets interior DL. Instead he only had Devey, Wendell and Kline.

The Pats run defense was not directed at stopping the run, and surrendering less than 4.0 YPC. This Defense, less Siliga, and Mayo, but with 5-6 DBs, was instead directed to preventing 10+, very long breakthrough scoring runs.

Plus always being prepared for the long scoring pass, and especially the play action pass, unveiled at a run oriented defense that was unprepared for such plays,

You STILL have not explained why the Pat's coaches played a 2 LB, 5 DB defense exclusively. IMHO, that is the key evidence that all was not what it seemed.

Plus it was NOT the first time that BB has used this strategy. He did it at least twice before. He used it against the Bills in a SuperBowl when he was DC with the Giants; and employed it against Peyton in the second half last season's game at Foxboro. Incidently, "The Swindle" game plan is in the HOF in Canton for that SuperBowl game plan..

BradyManny said:

I'd just rather call a spade a spade. The OL unit we have right now has two backups in there, without a lot of experience. The offense has excelled of late thanks to the impact of its star players in Brady & Gronk, as well it should. They are paid to bring up the level of play of the guys around them.

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The fact that they have been productive with two backups in there actually makes it more impressive, not less. And I think we've already seen how well Brady can play with a legitimate dumpster fire OL.

I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would have a problem with how the OL has played the last three weeks. The only explanation that fits is that they are imagining carry over from the first month, with every perfectly normal mistake being elevated into apocalyptic evidence.

BradyManny said:

It's not. But Devey & Kline are not the plan, they are not the rebuild. Stork & Fleming are. Devey was a stopgap gone wrong, and he has been truly poor all season. Kline hasn't been good either, and the team never called upon him even in spite of all the other interior struggles. The last two games, we've had to make do with those two guys, but let's not pretend like they are part of the master plan. They are bound for the bench as soon as Stork, Connolly or Fleming are ready.

What's happened is that the offense as a whole has executed better, even though the guard play has continued to be a problem. People look at the increased production and incorrectly assume the line is fixed, when at least two guys who will be starting later in the season are injured right now.

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You are absolutely correct about the real rebuilding O-line and what BB had to employ against the Jets. Plus the loss of Mayo and no time to adapt helped force the unorthodox strategy.

That also provides some evidence that BB felt he had had to resort to his old Bag of tricks game plans and Wiles to beat the JESTers.

Fortunately Rex, like Peyton was too short-sighted and dumb, to notice that he was being had. Buffalo the SB favorite probably didn't think it would make a difference, but they too were outscored, while Thurman got his !00+ plus (useless) yards.

AzPatsFan said:

You STILL have not explained why the Pat's coaches played a 2 LB, 5 DB defense exclusively. IMHO, that is the key evidence that all was not what it seemed.

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All you're describing to me is a nickle defense/sub package, and even that was not used nearly as much as it normally is.

As Andy Johnson stated, we were in more pure run defense heavy schemes than at any other game throughout the entire season so far considering that we used subpackages less than most other games.

AzPatsFan said:

Plus it was NOT the first time that BB has used this strategy. He did it at least twice before. He used it against the Bills in a SuperBowl when he was DC with the Giants; and employed it against Peyton in the second half last season's game at Foxboro. Incidently, "The Swindle" game plan is in the HOF in Canton for that SuperBowl game plan..

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I think we've all been over this multiple times now. If you don't understand the difference between these insanely high powered offenses with tons of weapons and the extremely limited offense that the New York Jets deploy, I'm not sure what to tell you...

Allowing the Jets to play to their one and only strength is not only stupid, but it's practically insane. This did not happen anywhere else but your mind.