Realistic Additions to Defense

Joker said:

I finally watched the All 22...don't bother unless you're a sucker for punishment. Mangold moved Walker wherever he wanted to all night. Walker never got the gap control he had to, to be effective in any way. Nink also got caught in the line wash over and over exposing the outside to Ivory...on one play, Ivory takes the handoff, runs to the left of center, stops and runs right around right end as Ninko and Walker are both moved to the left. Ghastly stuff. Basic ABC football being played like a semi-pro beer league IMO. I WILL add that the lack of prep and rest factored into this shoddy play. Tired players make mental and physical mistakes. I expect a tighter scheme by the Bears game. If not Forte will run for 150+.

Click to expand...

I thought Wilfork should have been at NT instead of DE.
Ultimately we had almost the entire front 7 playing a different spot than the one they have played most this season so mistakes aren't a surprise to me.

Wasn't so much surprised by the mistakes by Collins and Hightower. Hightower held up on hits he should have made leading to extra yards on runs, more than a few times. I think he read the plays going OOB and didn't finish but the runners consistently turned upfield for extra yards. Collins was getting mashed when he ventured inside. Saw him get taken right off his feet a couple of times. I saw Wilfork playing DE and the Jets ran right at him and went right by him...no idea what THAT defensive call is supposed to be.

Why they decided not to safety blitz Smith more than twice still puzzles me.I firmly believe he was there to be taken all night long. Very timid defensive strategy to play on your home field IMO and I'll tell you why...it takes the crowd out of the game. We WANT to see pressure on 3rd and long against a JAG like Smith...but ,for whatever reason, they were just content to let sit back behind his wall and get comfortable.

Joker said:

Collins was getting mashed when he ventured inside. Saw him get taken right off his feet a couple of times.

Click to expand...

It is unfortunate that it seems to be a fairly common occurrence in his short career here.

With excellent speed and coverage skills, hopefully he can get that worked out and improve as a run stopper.

supafly said:

It is unfortunate that it seems to be a fairly common occurrence in his short career here.

With excellent speed and coverage skills, hopefully he can get that worked out and improve as a run stopper.

Click to expand...

34 ILB taking on OGs in the running game is about the most difficult job in the NFL.
Very few would hold up to the scrutiny of analyzing how many times they were blocked effectively while giving up 50+ lbs.

Joker said:

I finally watched the All 22...don't bother unless you're a sucker for punishment. Mangold moved Walker wherever he wanted to all night. Walker never got the gap control he had to, to be effective in any way. Nink also got caught in the line wash over and over exposing the outside to Ivory...on one play, Ivory takes the handoff, runs to the left of center, stops and runs right around right end as Ninko and Walker are both moved to the left. Ghastly stuff. Basic ABC football being played like a semi-pro beer league IMO. I WILL add that the lack of prep and rest factored into this shoddy play. Tired players make mental and physical mistakes. I expect a tighter scheme by the Bears game. If not Forte will run for 150+.

Click to expand...

If you're an OC for another team and you watch that tape, what's your primary offensive scheme going to be?

Run Run and Run

... well, depending on who you have at QB and WR - but why would you gamble and take a chance with Revis or others in a pretty good secondary when the Pats didn't show they could stop the Jets from running?

I'm sure that's going to be a focus in practice and of the DC - we'll see what they come up with

This thread has had some of the most stupid and unrealistic responses I've ever seen.

Realistic: promote Bequette from the PS. Been in the system 3 and a half years? Time is now.

AndyJohnson said:

Last game our base was 34 with Wilfork walker Chris jones on the line and nink and chandler at OLB with HT and Collins at ilb so skinner was in fact a back up.
Chris white and jagaret Davis are also backups.

Given our issues vs the run so far we may stay big more often in the base more often except when we play passing teams where we may not hardly use a base and play nickel all day.

Click to expand...

BEFORE MAYO'S INJURY
It seems that with Mayo out that we have had a major change of formation. Before, we almost always had 3 LB's on the field in the base: Mayo, Collins and Hightower. When there was an injury, Fleming (Game 1) or Skinner (after Game 1) played in the base.

In the base, we played 4 up front: Ninkovich, Jones and TWO defensive tackles. As we agreed at the time, it made little difference whether we called this a 3-4 or 4-3 since the same personnel were on the field in the base.

AFTER MAYO's INJURY
Now, it seems that we have only 2 LB's in the base or 4 LB's if we count Ninkovich and Jones. But the key is that there are THREE DT's, the essence of a pure 3-4. Easley is the smallest of the wide bodies when he plays.

I understand why we want to have our best 7 on the field. However, it does seem to be more than that. After all, Skinner played all the downs in the base in other games. On Thursday, he was not a starter in the base.

OPEN QUESTION
We have concluded several times that Easley, Walker and Chris Jones are not in their best scheme in the 3-4. Have we changed our minds? Have they gotten more used to the scheme? Obviously, if we continue, the players will need to play much better. But perhaps this is a matter of signal calling and experience.

A COMMENT
Will these players be fresh for the playoffs? The linebackers played ALL the down, except for Jones sitting for 3 plays. Is this sustainable? We have a 4 man DT rotation, with an occasional play from Moore in the sub. Even this seems a bit thin.

BOTTOM LINE
I'm more than fine with the 3-4 if we have the players for it. It seems that some of our DT's are more suited to the 4-3. Also, it seems that Moore will need to play lots more. Finally, it seems that we are back to Ninkovich and Jones playing 100% of the reps. It is difficult to be fresh for the playoffs when that is the case.

AndyJohnson said:

Not against the run.
I think ultimately the best base D whether we call it 34 or 43 to play both the run and pass has Easley Wilfork walker/jones chandler jones nink HT and Collins in the field.
Against a run heavy team you can take Easley out and play both walker and Chris j as we did Thursday. Against a pass heavy team you could take walker/Chris j out, use chandler j/nink as de bring skinner in at ilb and move HT to his WOLB spot tantrum he looked so good at early in the season.

Click to expand...

Until someone other than wilfork learns to play without roller skates on, any current pats DT we send out there including sigla is not going to cut the mustard.

The problems with edge control are troubling and clearly a de problem. Bb should be able to correct that.

AndyJohnson said:

34 ILB taking on OGs in the running game is about the most difficult job in the NFL.
Very few would hold up to the scrutiny of analyzing how many times they were blocked effectively while giving up 50+ lbs.

Click to expand...

There are plenty of LBs who manage just fine.
Giving up 50+lbs can be an advantage when you know how to use it. LBs are supposed to be much more agile than 300+behemoths, they can juke them out of their shoes. Once a fatso commits to one direction, its very hard for him to go another way.
Collins just doesn't have the football instincts to do that. He's a big liability now. Teams will run at him all day. And if you can't stop the run, you're in big trouble in today's NFL.

IMO last game was the first one of "life after Mayo". The D did not look very good, but give it some time they have a few days off and make some adjustments...

Not stopping the run is problematic, but not stopping the pass in this league is more significant..

I see the addition of some linebacker to help this crew, was surprised that James Anderson did not make this team.. but he does not seem to be doing much in Tenn.

This team played 4 games in 18 days... so do not think that Thursday last was a barometer of much..

mgteich said:

BEFORE MAYO'S INJURY
It seems that with Mayo out that we have had a major change of formation. Before, we almost always had 3 LB's on the field in the base: Mayo, Collins and Hightower. When there was an injury, Fleming (Game 1) or Skinner (after Game 1) played in the base.

In the base, we played 4 up front: Ninkovich, Jones and TWO defensive tackles. As we agreed at the time, it made little difference whether we called this a 3-4 or 4-3 since the same personnel were on the field in the base.

AFTER MAYO's INJURY
Now, it seems that we have only 2 LB's in the base or 4 LB's if we count Ninkovich and Jones. But the key is that there are THREE DT's, the essence of a pure 3-4. Easley is the smallest of the wide bodies when he plays.

I understand why we want to have our best 7 on the field. However, it does seem to be more than that. After all, Skinner played all the downs in the base in other games. On Thursday, he was not a starter in the base.

OPEN QUESTION
We have concluded several times that Easley, Walker and Chris Jones are not in their best scheme in the 3-4. Have we changed our minds? Have they gotten more used to the scheme? Obviously, if we continue, the players will need to play much better. But perhaps this is a matter of signal calling and experience.

A COMMENT
Will these players be fresh for the playoffs? The linebackers played ALL the down, except for Jones sitting for 3 plays. Is this sustainable? We have a 4 man DT rotation, with an occasional play from Moore in the sub. Even this seems a bit thin.

BOTTOM LINE
I'm more than fine with the 3-4 if we have the players for it. It seems that some of our DT's are more suited to the 4-3. Also, it seems that Moore will need to play lots more. Finally, it seems that we are back to Ninkovich and Jones playing 100% of the reps. It is difficult to be fresh for the playoffs when that is the case.

Click to expand...

I think you are missing that this is opponent specific.
We have played the "big 34" in every game. Opponent determines how much. If mayo wet not injured we likely would have still played 3 300 lbers vs the jets.
Given the run d struggles we will probably see more of it going forward than we have.

patsderoer said:

There are plenty of LBs who manage just fine.
Giving up 50+lbs can be an advantage when you know how to use it. LBs are supposed to be much more agile than 300+behemoths, they can juke them out of their shoes. Once a fatso commits to one direction, its very hard for him to go another way.
Collins just doesn't have the football instincts to do that. He's a big liability now. Teams will run at him all day. And if you can't stop the run, you're in big trouble in today's NFL.

Click to expand...

Some better than others but all have plays where they are blown up. My point was in response to the poster citing a few plays and as I said you will see that with any 34 ilb.

I know it's easier said than done but an established LB with vet experience that can QB Def callin out formations redirecting positions. Also it'll be hard just comin in learnin a BB's Def schemes expecting to be an immediate impact player but Mayo's absence is obviously a HUGE Loss and it should be addressed.

DarrylS said:

IMO last game was the first one of "life after Mayo". The D did not look very good, but give it some time they have a few days off and make some adjustments...

Not stopping the run is problematic, but not stopping the pass in this league is more significant..

I see the addition of some linebacker to help this crew, was surprised that James Anderson did not make this team.. but he does not seem to be doing much in Tenn.

This team played 4 games in 18 days... so do not think that Thursday last was a barometer of much..

Click to expand...

I think you are taking for granted our run defense in the past 12 years if you think that is true. There is nothing more agonizing than getting beat and never having a chance to get your offense on the field. Even if a team is throwing all over you, passing plays still play the percentages. Running plays are 99.9% to succeed. If a team can run on you at will, you just have to sit back and watch the clock count down helplessly.

JoeSixPat said:

If you're an OC for another team and you watch that tape, what's your primary offensive scheme going to be?

Run Run and Run

... well, depending on who you have at QB and WR - but why would you gamble and take a chance with Revis or others in a pretty good secondary when the Pats didn't show they could stop the Jets from running?

I'm sure that's going to be a focus in practice and of the DC - we'll see what they come up with

Click to expand...

Most good teams are built around a star Qb. They have elite wr's and are more or less finesse teams. The qb's and off. co-ordinators would rather throw the ball. I think we can correct the run defense to the point where it won't be the reason we lose a play-off game.

patsfaninpa said:

Most good teams are built around a star Qb. They have elite wr's and are more or less finesse teams.

Click to expand...

????

That's way off base, IMO.

AndyJohnson said:

Some better than others but all have plays where they are blown up. My point was in response to the poster citing a few plays and as I said you will see that with any 34 ilb.

Click to expand...

to make it worse Collins isn't even really a true 34 ILB. He plays best at OLB.

Open question: Collins and Ninkovich switch places. Collins to 34 OLB and Nink to ILB. Collins brings some athleticism to the pass rush that I think Nink just doesn't have. However, I'm unsure if we want to take Collins coverage abilities away from the middle of the field.

DocHoliday said:

to make it worse Collins isn't even really a true 34 ILB. He plays best at OLB.

Open question: Collins and Ninkovich switch places. Collins to 34 OLB and Nink to ILB. Collins brings some athleticism to the pass rush that I think Nink just doesn't have. However, I'm unsure if we want to take Collins coverage abilities away from the middle of the field.

Click to expand...

You do realize that OLBs also have to play the run, and set the edge? Collins would be even more exposed at OLB than at ILB.

patsderoer said:

You do realize that OLBs also have to play the run, and set the edge? Collins would be even more exposed at OLB than at ILB.

Click to expand...

I don't think his trouble is handling the run. It's running down into the mess of defensive tackles and guards. I don't think he's stout enough to be effective there. At OLB he'll be free to set the edge and stop those outside runs.

mayoclinic said:

????

That's way off base, IMO.

Click to expand...

Our potential playoff opponents are built like that. Denver, Cincy and Indy