Run defense is key

It will help when they play base run Defense. Don't you think?

Playing Nickle Defense all the time only invites (suckers) the opponent to run at you, if you want them to do so.

The Pats Coaches WANTED the gullible Jesters to do so. In this case, the Jets were better than expected, practically perfect, with none of the usual turnovers, but still harmlessly. They still outscored them, with a mere 19 minutes of TOP.

Toss in an expected turnover or two, and a expected drive stopping penalty, and the score would not have been as close as it was. More like 27-17.

As a certain Coach observed: "You Play to Win the Game!"

mgteich said:

I don't think that is was a "pretty decent" idea to have ZERO linebackers as backups other than UDFA's who have never played for the team.
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We lost Spikes and Fletcher in the offseason. We added Skinner and Fleming to the Practice Squad to be used when needed. And yes, we had other UDFA's during the offseason.

It was clear to almost everyone that were at least one linebacker short when the 53 was announced. Even if one considers that we play 2 1/2 LB's, we still need backups. We needed (and need), at least ONE linebacker capable of starting to backup all three, plus a 5th LB who was primarily a special teams player, but who has experience and could contribute as needed.
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Last year our starters were Mayo, Hightower and Spikes. Our backups were Collins and Fletcher. We also had our UDFA's on the Practice Squad. Fletcher was there only in case of two injuries. THAT was a "pretty decent" plan. Even then, it was somewhat questionable that a rookie was our primary backup.
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This year, Belichick decided that we didn't need TWO backup linebackers who were ready to start. Belichick decided that we didn't need ONE backup linebacker who was ready to start. Belichick thought that ZERO was enough.
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So here we are. We have 12 defensive backs on the team. We have 2 STO linebackers. We have only one DE backup who is a 6th rounder and has been inactive (sometimes another source of linebacker help).
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Forgive me if I don't think that this is a "decent plan".

Some of us have thought that having ONLY ten defensive backs is a decent plan. The positions were needed, are needed, and will be needed for the defensive front seven. At very least, one of the STO linebackers could be replaced by a position linebacker.

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I spoke solely on the subject of losing Brandon Spikes and the idea of having adequate starters, which was clearly true. They had Mayo, Hightower, and just had spent the first pick of their previous draft on an athletic coverage LB in Collins. Moving on from Spikes was an acceptable choice for many reasons.

All you're doing is trying to put words in my mouth due to your unhappiness with the depth at the position. I did not speak on that subject whatsoever.

PP2 said:

I think flipping Hightower and Collins hurt the run D. Hightower is best in Mayo's mike spot.

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There was no mike we played 34

MassPats38 said:

I left the Bills and Raiders out because their overall performance has not been impressive against other teams. I never claimed they were impressive. The balance of the other teams, as the yards per game ranking show, are not bad running teams by the numbers this season. If the Pats stopped them when other teams could not, then it stands to reason the Pats are not entirely inept in their run defense. 3 stinkers all season, and no consecutive stinkers

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Other teams? So if you're leaving the Bills and Raiders out then we're left with Vikings and Bengals

Vikings have had their highest rush totals vs terrible rush D's. The Saint's give up 112 yards average to RBs and their defense is pretty awful this season all around. The Packers are the last ranked team when it comes to stopping the run. Asiata isn't even the starter for the Vikings anymore.

Bengals - Like I already said ... they fell behind early. Bernard still rushed for 62 on only 13 carries, if the Bengals D would of actually shown up then he probably would of broke 100. It didn't happen, I get that but there are reasons why the Bengals only had 18 total carries.

MassPats38 said:

The point I was making is if these teams are all scrubs with high per game averages, then who are the running juggernauts you fear represent the real deal in the NFL right now? If you dismiss the good showings by the Pats D but not the bad, then the defense always sucks. The 2004 Pats defense, playing under similar pass defense emphasis rules, would apparently suck big time because they gave up about the same rushing yards by the time they reached 6-1, with two games of 200+ yards.

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There are plenty of good RB's in the AFC....

Past teams are exactly that ... the past. It doesn't matter what we did in 2004 with completely different players on our roster/other teams rosters. That was 10 YEARS ago. Pass defense was different in 2004 compared to now as well, and that's pretty obvious.

The fact is we have given up the 2nd most yards to the rush in the entire NFL.

The Vikings aren't a playoff team
The Bills aren't a playoff team
The Raiders aren't a playoff
The Jets aren't a playoff team
Are the Dolphins a playoff team? I don't know, I can't really see them making it in this season.

I'm not dismissing their good games, but it's come against non playoff teams with under average run games, when this team has been tested by good RB's they have been torched. I just need to see a larger body of work with better RB's in those games, we'll see very soon too once this week is over.

MassPats38 said:

Mayo has his critics here, but he sniffs out the ball well. He is a loss, regardless of whether some here want to believe he is not all that impressive. The Pats lost him in a short week, and as pointed out had to play a desperate team that also happens to be its biggest rival. The Jets got plenty of yards between the 20s but could not seal the deal with TDs.

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Mayo is a loss for sure, but this was happening when he wasn't injured. I would of loved to see him vs Forte/Lacy though.

MassPats38 said:

I would agree the Bears will be a bigger indicator of where the defense is, if only for those reasons. The Pats are currently 12th in the NFL in defensive PPG. If the defense were really that lousy against the run, I submit teams would simply run on the defense and the PPG ranking would be substantially worse because yards mean squat if they don't end in points. Much like the transitional offensive line, the defense has to adjust to the loss of Mayo again. Hopefully last year's experience and the presence of Wilfork will make that easier and more effective.

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You're right, yards mean nothing if you can't score but all of the teams we have beat don't have stable run games and are pretty much bad teams outside of the Bengals. The teams who did beat us, it was clear they were going to run over and over and control the clock. No team wants to give the ball back to TB regardless who he has on offense. A lot of people here will take dumps on TB and this offense for not scoring on literally every drive, you're not going to score every drive and when you don't have many drives because you're getting ran on it will get dark real quick. It's not like this film isn't available to all teams, they have major holes and I think in this schedule grind where we will see quality teams, they will TEST the **** out of our run D. Buckle up because we have had a relatively easy start to the season, really good offensive play makers are on the horizon.

Our defense is good at getting turn overs, we NEED to make sure we can stop the run vs balanced teams because I will ALWAYS take my chances with all these non GOATs throwing the ball. It may be a passing league but passing the ball is scary.

The Cowboys go into Seattle, run the ball down their throats while playing keep away and win in the hardest place to win. Just take some time and really think about that

AzPatsFan said:

It will help when they play base run Defense. Don't you think?

Playing Nickle Defense all the time only invites (suckers) the opponent to run at you, if you want them to do so.

The Pats Coaches WANTED the gullible Jesters to do so. In this case, the Jets were better than expected, practically perfect, with none of the usual turnovers, but still harmlessly. They still outscored them, with a mere 19 minutes of TOP.

Toss in an expected turnover or two, and a expected drive stopping penalty, and the score would not have been as close as it was. More like 27-17.

As a certain Coach observed: "You Play to Win the Game!"

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Yup, three teams have been suckers and ran against us for over 190 yards per game. We lost 2 of the games. In the 3rd, we needed to block a field goal to win the game. Personally, I do not expect to win lots more games in which we give up over 190 yards on the ground.

There is nothing wrong with close victories and strange analysis. To suggest that we WANT inept passing teams to run for over 200 yards against us is an especially strange analysis.

Hael said:

I still think a lot of this is coaching. I mean the Oline has mostly gotten it together even though they started about as bad as any unit that i've ever seen. Yet the run defense is still in preseason form, and that has to be a worry even though the talent is there.

Yes, the loss of Siliga is an issue, but as far as I could see the problem (when there was one) was usually in the contain off the edges. Usually reliable Ninkovich/C Jones did a terrible job in run D. Also, V Wilfork was systematically going to the wrong gap it seemed.

That isn't a talent issue. That is either communication, or playcalling.

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We played 2 guys on the DL all night long that we picked up off the street. We had Vince wilfork over the OT playing 5 tech. We played chandler jones at a position he has almost no experience at. Hightower changed positions. A 6th round rookie was a backup dl. An Udfa was the 3rd real LB.
What in the world would you consider a talent issue?

AzPatsFan said:

It will help when they play base run Defense. Don't you think?

Playing Nickle Defense all the time only invites (suckers) the opponent to run at you, if you want them to do so.

The Pats Coaches WANTED the gullible Jesters to do so. In this case, the Jets were better than expected, practically perfect, with none of the usual turnovers, but still harmlessly. They still outscored them, with a mere 19 minutes of TOP.

Toss in an expected turnover or two, and a expected drive stopping penalty, and the score would not have been as close as it was. More like 27-17.

As a certain Coach observed: "You Play to Win the Game!"

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If that was the plan they should burn the plan.

mgteich said:

Yup, three teams have been suckers and ran against us for over 190 yards per game. We lost 2 of the games. In the 3rd, we needed to block a field goal to win the game. Personally, I do not expect to win lots more games in which we give up over 190 yards on the ground.

There is nothing wrong with close victories and strange analysis. To suggest that we WANT inept passing teams to run for over 200 yards against us is an especially strange analysis.

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The difference here is that we were NOT playing Run Defense, and on purpose. Nickle 4-2-5, and Dime 3-2-6, are NOT anti-Run Defenses.

The other Two games we were playing Run Defense, and we were legitimately run on. Two games out of seven being trampled, is not great, don't get me wrong.

This game certainly had the bad rushing stats, but like the Peyton game last season, the Pats coaches invited the run. If you can't stop the other guy, it is just as good, if you can get him to stop himself.

The Pats chalked up two wins employing this strategy. Their record is 5-2 and atop the AFCE.

AzPatsFan said:

The difference here is that we were NOT playing Run Defense, and on purpose. Nickle 4-2-5, and Dime 3-2-6, are NOT anti-Run Defenses.

The other Two games we were playing Run Defense, and we were legitimately run on. Two games out of seven being trampled, is not great, don't get me wrong.

This game certainly had the bad rushing stats, but like the Peyton game last season, the Pats coaches invited the run. If you can't stop the other guy, it is just as good, if you can get him to stop himself.

The Pats chalked up two wins employing this strategy. Their record is 5-2 and atop the AFCE.

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You don't think playing the run and still getting torched is concerning?

Listen, I think we can survive the regular season with this current run D but you don't think it's going to need to tighten up by when playoffs start? Teams are going to be more stable, we cannot continue to get ran on like this and lose the TOP battle this badly.

AndyJohnson said:

We played 2 guys on the DL all night long that we picked up off the street. We had Vince wilfork over the OT playing 5 tech. We played chandler jones at a position he has almost no experience at. Hightower changed positions. A 6th round rookie was a backup dl. An Udfa was the 3rd real LB.
What in the world would you consider a talent issue?

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Andy,

How do you make it VERY ENTICING to Run at the Pats. Play Nickle and Dime Defense exclusively, and don't deviate. Sweeten the pot occasionally, with seemingly strange, seemingly desperation, position moves to keep the Swindle going.

You can't do that to just everyone. But Peyton and Rex are just single-minded, and dumb enough, to fall for it. And keep on falling for it. They did. They lost.

It doesn't mean you had no Defense. It was just unorthodox. Give up 4-8 yard runs. But use the extra Safeties to prevent 10+ yard, long breakthrough runs. Plus you have the appropriate Defense in, to prevent long pass completions too.

Bet that your Offense will still outscore them.

Why resort to this? You very ably documented why. Plus the team was very weary and beat up. They had not had time to re-organize, after the Mayo injury. The weather forecasters predicted a deluge, when Rex was game-planning his very predictable Ground & Pound.

BB "El Matador" was very ecstatic after the game. He just had Rex chase the cape, the whole game, and never saw the hidden sword.

KA- said:

You don't think playing the run and still getting torched is concerning?

Listen, I think we can survive the regular season with this current run D but you don't think it's going to need to tighten up by when playoffs start? Teams are going to be more stable, we cannot continue to get ran on like this and lose the TOP battle this badly.

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How many times do I have to say, the Pats coaches NEVER played the run. You don't play NIckle pass defense against the run, but that is what they did. They wanted it, to burn clock and keep Brady from being killed. The great fear was that Rex would stop and think, and change what he was doing. It never happened.

According to Christopher Price:

---Through the first 7 games this year, the NEP defense has allowed 190+ rushing yards THREE times.

In comparison, the defenses from 2005--2013 only allowed this to happen FIVE times....total.

AzPatsFan said:

How many times do I have to say, the Pats coaches NEVER played the run. You don't play NIckle pass defense against the run, but that is what they did. They wanted it, to burn clock and keep Brady from being killed. The great fear was that Rex would stop and think, and change what he was doing. It never happened.

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AzPatsFan said:

Andy,

How do you make it VERY ENTICING to Run at the Pats. Play Nickle and Dime Defense exclusively, and don't deviate. Sweeten the pot occasionally, with seemingly strange, seemingly desperation, position moves to keep the Swindle going.

You can't do that to just everyone. But Peyton and Rex are just single-minded, and dumb enough, to fall for it. And keep on falling for it. They did. They lost.

It doesn't mean you had no Defense. It was just unorthodox. Give up 4-8 yard runs. But use the extra Safeties to prevent 10+ yard, long breakthrough runs. Plus you have the appropriate Defense in, to prevent long pass completions too.

Bet that your Offense will still outscore them.

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I don't mean this to sound mean or disrespectful since I'm playfully jabbing you and always enjoy your posts, but that dry Arizona air must really be getting to you

According to Wilfork, Hightower, Walker (in some form)--"there were communication issues that are unacceptable. We have to correct them moving forward Sometimes it involved setting the edge, sometimes it was a combination of things."

According to Belichick--"We just didn't do things well. Sometimes it was just technique stuff. We have to coach better as well....all of it. Put it on me."

According to AzPatsFan--"It was a brilliant pre-planned move on the part of Belichick to purposedly bait the Jets into playing to their one and only strength, by allowing them to control the clock ('since the Pats didn't want Brady to get killed by having the ball') and run the ball for 4-8 yds at a time. We knew we'd easily create big touchdown plays on drives of only 3-4 plays, and we knew that we could easily score at will against their excellent defense whenever we wanted with limited time of possession."

AzPatsFan said:

How many times do I have to say, the Pats coaches NEVER played the run. You don't play NIckle pass defense against the run, but that is what they did. They wanted it, to burn clock and keep Brady from being killed. The great fear was that Rex would stop and think, and change what he was doing. It never happened.

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Do you even read what you type?

"The other Two games we were playing Run Defense, and we were legitimately run on."

Yea man, it was a great plan to get doubled on TOP. That's what you aim for when you play football!!!!


The Jets game doesn't even matter much, it was a short week, I'll leave it at that. I have barely even brought it up in this thread.

AzPatsFan said:

Andy,

How do you make it VERY ENTICING to Run at the Pats. Play Nickle and Dime Defense exclusively, and don't deviate. Sweeten the pot occasionally, with seemingly strange, seemingly desperation, position moves to keep the Swindle going.

You can't do that to just everyone. But Peyton and Rex are just single-minded, and dumb enough, to fall for it. And keep on falling for it. They did. They lost.

It doesn't mean you had no Defense. It was just unorthodox. Give up 4-8 yard runs. But use the extra Safeties to prevent 10+ yard, long breakthrough runs. Plus you have the appropriate Defense in, to prevent long pass completions too.

Bet that your Offense will still outscore them.

Why resort to this? You very ably documented why. Plus the team was very weary and beat up. They had not had time to re-organize, after the Mayo injury. The weather forecasters predicted a deluge, when Rex was game-planning his very predictable Ground & Pound.

BB "El Matador" was very ecstatic after the game. He just had Rex chase the cape, the whole game, and never saw the hidden sword.

Click to expand...

First we didn't play nickel and some all day. In fact we played the most run heavy defense we have all season with 3 300 lb dl.
Your entire argument conflicts with the facts.
Yes we did that against Peyton manning last year. It would be silly to do that against geno smith.
Your argument is Rex wanted to run we decided to make it easy for him by over defending the pass and that is smart because we allowed a terrible offense 25 points and had the huge margin of not losing because they missed a last second fg?
This just didn't happen. We tried hard to stop the run and didn't do it very well.

AzPatsFan said:

How many times do I have to say, the Pats coaches NEVER played the run. You don't play NIckle pass defense against the run, but that is what they did. They wanted it, to burn clock and keep Brady from being killed. The great fear was that Rex would stop and think, and change what he was doing. It never happened.

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Do you agree that if your fact that they played nickel all day is wrong your argument is wrong?

Joey007 said:

? Buffalo has one of the most effective rushing attacks in the NFL and we shut it down pretty well. Cincy has a pretty nice running game with Bernard and Hill running the ball and we kept it contained as well.

I think we've shown we can stop the run, it's just about finding consistency.

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Miami ran over us. KC ran over us. Now the Jets. 3 games out of 6... two of them with Mayo. So every other game we can give up 200-ish yards on the ground and that's not a problem?

oldrover said:

Miami ran over us. KC ran over us. Now the Jets. 3 games out of 6... two of them with Mayo. So every other game we can give up 200-ish yards on the ground and that's not a problem?

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It's definitely a problem, yes. But it's not as if we haven't stopped any effective rushing attacks this year. We've shown capability of stopping the run in some games.

AndyJohnson said:

First we didn't play nickel and some all day. In fact we played the most run heavy defense we have all season with 3 300 lb dl.
Your entire argument conflicts with the facts.
Yes we did that against Peyton manning last year. It would be silly to do that against geno smith.
Your argument is Rex wanted to run we decided to make it easy for him by over defending the pass and that is smart because we allowed a terrible offense 25 points and had the huge margin of not losing because they missed a last second fg?
This just didn't happen. We tried hard to stop the run and didn't do it very well.

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As you say, and have said for months (years?), the issue is how many 300 lb players are in the middle.

AZ seems to think that the 5-2, with THREE 300+guys in the middle, 2 LB's and 4 DB's is a nickel package, rather than a 3-4 base package.

AndyJohnson said:

There was no mike we played 34

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The concept of 'mike' has several different applications, not just a 4-3 one. I was referring to the fact that Mayo occupies a specific spot on the field, which I thought Hightower was going to take over, but they elected to put Collins in his spot.

I didn't agree with that decision.