Wake Up The Dead: Patriots Upstairs (Ernie!!) Misses Another Bad Spot

ThatllMoveTheChains!!! said:

Are you saying there aren't rules about spotting the ball?

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I'm saying the original spot from an on field vantage point is a real time judgment call. Human error can occur in real time.

Having 20+ seconds to rewind video from 3 different angles is a different level of error.

I think that is pretty obvious, no?

shmessy said:

I'm saying the original spot from an on field vantage point is a real time judgment call. Human error can occur in real time.

Having 20+ seconds to rewind video from 3 different angles is a different level of error.

I think that is pretty obvious, no?

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I'm saying that there's more to challenging a play than just deciding the wrong call was made.

rlcarr said:

Just for the record, a "football move" is no longer part of the definition of a reception. In either 2012 or 2013 the rule changed to say that the receiver needed to control and possess the ball long enough to have done a "football move", but does not actually have to do it.

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Everytime they change the rules, they make them more subjective. The league puts too much on the officials plate. Everytime they try to eat it all, they throw everything up.

supafly said:

Yes, the system they currently have in place is not effective enough.

I hate to question much of their successful ways, but they do miss a lot of potential challenges--and tonight's seriously could have bit them in the ass.

I'd like to see another view of that Jets catch on the left sideline during the last drive, but it sure looked like he had his foot on the line when he caught the ball. Like I said, it was enough to where the announcers commented that Belichick may want to challenge.

I think it's an obvious weakness in our game that needs tightening up, especially from someone like BB who is a freak about trying not to repeat mistakes as much as possible.

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Totally agree. It's been a little mystifying that BB and staff aren't on top of these challenges.

Considering it is BB with his insane detail to every advantage, I assumed he had looked at the big picture percentages and decided more is lost than gained by challenging close, judgment type calls over the long haul of a full season. But even that is hard to compute given there can be an autonomous person/people looking at the plays, completely away from the sideline coaching process, who are tasked specifically with being sure before signaling BB (otherwise BB/the coaching staff shouldn't even know they exist).

Since I assume something like that is already in place and it's hard to believe they aren't capable enough to identify these challenge-able calls, I think it must be BB himself opting to ignore the challenge signal from his staff. Why he is doing that? Who knows but I'd bet the mortgage payment that in BB's mind there is more advantage in ignoring it (even if the advantage is minute).

all reviews inside 2 minutes have to come from upstairs...BB doesn't get to throw a red flag


NFL Booth Review
After the two-minute warning, the responsibility of calling reviews shifts from coaches to the replay assistant in the booth. Sometimes those decisions can directly determine the outcome of the game. The replay assistant only has the time between plays to decide whether to order review. Even if a call is not overturned, a decision to review can affect a team's momentum at a critical juncture.

The replay assistant is part of the officiating team. He participates in the review process throughout the game, but can't initiate a review until the two-minute warning has passed. If he then sees a call that appears questionable on replay, he activates a vibrating buzzer worn by the referee.
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/nfl-review-rules3.htm

Joker said:

all reviews inside 2 minutes have to come from upstairs...BB doesn't get to throw a red flag

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No, but as many have pointed out--he should have called for a timeout, in which case they'd have seen the replay and reviewed it. We see it happen in many games.

Allowing the other team to bolt to the LOS on a controversial play that really wasn't a catch is not a good coaching moment, especially when it's on a potentially game winning drive. It's a shame that the refs don't stop it for ANY borderline call, but sometimes they don't have enough time to see it. That's why you use one of your 2 or 3 timeouts.

OK...let's give the win back since you're all so goddamned upset about it...it was all Belechick's fault..

TheBostonStraggler said:

Totally agree. It's been a little mystifying that BB and staff aren't on top of these challenges.

Considering it is BB with his insane detail to every advantage, I assumed he had looked at the big picture percentages and decided more is lost than gained by challenging close, judgment type calls over the long haul of a full season. But even that is hard to compute given there can be an autonomous person/people looking at the plays, completely away from the sideline coaching process, who are tasked specifically with being sure before signaling BB (otherwise BB/the coaching staff shouldn't even know they exist).

Since I assume something like that is already in place and it's hard to believe they aren't capable enough to identify these challenge-able calls, I think it must be BB himself opting to ignore the challenge signal from his staff. Why he is doing that? Who knows but I'd bet the mortgage payment that in BB's mind there is more advantage in ignoring it (even if the advantage is minute).

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I agree with you that Belichick is obviously a man who is going to play the highest percentage, and in many of these cases, he doesn't want to risk losing a timeout. In the first quarter, second quarter, even third quarter--that's fine.

However, when you have 2 or 3 timeouts remaining at the end of the game as the other team is marching down the field to get themselves into a potentially game-winning FG attempt, you take the timeout if all else fails.

He and his staff had to have known that it was a borderline call. Since the Jets player was not in bounds, their drive may very well have been stopped without even getting that FG attempt off--and that is the obvious point. There's nothing to lose. You aren't collecting timeouts to take home with you. We all know that Belichick wants to win and put the team into the best position to win the game, so it's got to be an oversight, or a bad system that they have in place.

Joker said:

OK...let's give the win back since you're all so goddamned upset about it...it was all Belechick's fault..

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No reason to get upset, Joker.

A thread was started about our team's inefficient system on challenges, so that's what we're discussing. Thank God Chris Jones blocked the kick, because there shouldn't have been one in the first place. Unfortunately, we've seen this plenty of times before as well. The system they have in place doesn't seem to be very effective.

I was at the Steeler game in 2011 when Gronk clearly scored with about 4 minutes remaining, and the whole stadium was groaning waiting for him to challenge it as they watched it on the replay. Unfortunately, he never did because he claimed that "he didn't get a good enough look at it." Some wish that there was a more efficient system in place, that's all.

I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning some of the weaknesses the team has, as long as it's in proper context (no chicken little comments, etc).

jeezus krist...WHY is it on Belichick to WASTE a timeout??? The friggin NFL replay assistant is supposed to have the button!!! HE was the one who should have stopped play and done the replay.

supafly said:

I was at the Steeler game in 2011 when Gronk clearly scored with about 4 minutes remaining, and the whole stadium was groaning waiting for him to challenge it as they watched it on the replay. Unfortunately, he never did because he claimed that "he didn't get a good enough look at it." Some wish that there was a more efficient system in place, that's all.

I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning some of the weaknesses the team has, as long as it's in proper context (no chicken little comments, etc).

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uh...that was OUTSIDE of the 2 minute mark....I mean, do I REALLY have to explain this??????

supafly said:

I agree with you that Belichick is obviously a man who is going to play the highest percentage, and in many of these cases, he doesn't want to risk losing a timeout. In the first quarter, second quarter, even third quarter--that's fine.

However, when you have 2 or 3 timeouts remaining at the end of the game as the other team is marching down the field to get themselves into a potentially game-winning FG attempt, you take the timeout if all else fails.

He and his staff had to have known that it was a borderline call. Since the Jets player was not in bounds, their drive may very well have been stopped without even getting that FG attempt off--and that is the obvious point. There's nothing to lose. You aren't collecting timeouts to take home with you. We all know that Belichick wants to win and put the team into the best position to win the game, so it's got to be an oversight, or a bad system that they have in place.

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I agree with your overall belief Sup: if the situation renders timeouts unneeded, why not risk one on a challenge? However, and correct me if I'm wrong, if there is only a few seconds left isn't challenging disallowed? Where all replays are automatic? I've been flying the past few days while simultaneously tying a few on so my chronology on it is a bit fuzzy. Was the one foot out of bounds outside challenge-able or was it within the 'only reviewable if initiated from upstairs' window?

Joker said:

jeezus krist...WHY is it on Belichick to WASTE a timeout??? The friggin NFL replay assistant is supposed to have the button!!! HE was the one who should have stopped play and done the replay.

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It's on Belichick to use one of his 2 or 3 remaining timeouts, because he needs to be prepared for those kinds of situations, just the same as any head coach. If you have timeouts on the very last drive of the game, then what in the world are you saving them for?

We see bad calls/missed calls every single game. It's still the staff's responsibility to give them a longer or better look. This isn't something "new" that every single coach hasn't gone through at some point. In a perfect world, the refs stop the game and review it; however, it happens all the time where they miss the call. One would hope that he learns from this while reviewing the tape.

Joker said:

uh...that was OUTSIDE of the 2 minute mark....I mean, do I REALLY have to explain this??????

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Did anyone say that it wasn't? I said it was at the "4 minute mark." Those were my exact words.

I'm giving another obvious example of the lack of a proper system in place screwing the team, which results in a loss....hence the title of the thread, and reason for comments from posters.

You know damn well that this isn't exactly rocket science, or anything that shouldn't be able to be reasonably discussed. There's been plenty of flaws in this particular area, which is frustrating from someone (Belichick) who supposedly pays so much attention to detail.

Joker said:

jeezus krist...WHY is it on Belichick to WASTE a timeout??? The friggin NFL replay assistant is supposed to have the button!!! HE was the one who should have stopped play and done the replay.

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Well Joker, maybe the NFL had to lay off a big chunk of their replay staff in order to hire more media staff to work on improved press releases, speech writing, and well calculated dog & pony PR moves?

I disagree.Belichick should not have to waste a TO on a play the NFL SAYS they review inside the 2 minute mark. The NFL replay guy should have immediately stopped the game and called a review BECAUSE it was a catch on the sideline. As far as just throwing away a T.O. when the game is still undecided, well, you have your opinion and I have mine.

TheBostonStraggler said:

I agree with your overall belief Sup: if the situation renders timeouts unneeded, why not risk one on a challenge? However, and correct me if I'm wrong, if there is only a few seconds left isn't challenging disallowed? Where all replays are automatic? I've been flying the past few days while simultaneously tying a few on so my chronology on it is a bit fuzzy. Was the one foot out of bounds outside challenge-able or was it within the 'only reviewable if initiated from upstairs' window?

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What we normally see other coaches do around the league in this situation is to take a timeout, TBS.

That allows the replay to be reviewed on-air another 3-4+ times, where someone in the review booth usually buzzes down and notifies the ref.

supafly said:

Did anyone say that it wasn't? I said it was at the "4 minute mark." Those were my exact words.

I'm giving another obvious example of the lack of a proper system in place screwing the team, which results in a loss....hence the title of the thread, and reason for comments from posters.

You know damn well that this isn't exactly rocket science, or anything that shouldn't be able to be reasonably discussed. There's been plenty of flaws in this particular area, which is frustrating from someone (Belichick) who supposedly pays so much attention to detail.

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You misunderstood me...my fault I guess. I KNOW that was on Belichick. I am NOT disputing that. I AM disputing YOUR contention that INSIDE 2 minutes it is his responsibility to waste a TO on a play the NFL says WILL BE REVIEWED 100% of the time. YOU want to fault Belichick on this, I refuse to.

Joker said:

I disagree.Belichick should not have to waste a TO on a play the NFL SAYS they review inside the 2 minute mark. The NFL replay guy should have immediately stopped the game and called a review BECAUSE it was a catch on the sideline.

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We can ***** and moan about the fact that the NFL misses some calls inside of the 2 minute window, but we also see a ton of coaches stop the game to allow them a better look. I don't believe that they are better coaches than Bill Belichick, so obviously they have a better system in place for this specific situation.

The 100 percent main problem was that the Jets rushed to the LOS (which seemed normal due to the clock running down), which did not give anyone a proper view of the play on the replay tape.

Joker said:

As far as just throwing away a T.O. when the game is still undecided, well, you have your opinion and I have mine.

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But it shouldn't be about opinions. I get it that Belichick is going to have the red flag up his ass the entire game, and we as fans, should be okay with that. It's just the way it is, and it's the better way to be in my opinion.

In game changing situations, however, it'd be nice if they had a better system in place that may allow the staff to notify the HC of some obvious calls. Hopefully, it's not some bad luck and not a flaw in their system, but I think it's fair to wonder.

Joker said:

You misunderstood me...my fault I guess. I KNOW that was on Belichick. I am NOT disputing that. I AM disputing YOUR contention that INSIDE 2 minutes it is his responsibility to waste a TO on a play the NFL says WILL BE REVIEWED 100% of the time. YOU want to fault Belichick on this, I refuse to.

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I was just giving another example off the top of my head where it was within a one score game, and the lack of efficient system ("I couldn't see it" is not a good excuse in my opinion. You may feel differently) bit us in the ass.

As far as last night's game, I'm guessing that if Belichick doesn't come away with a lesson learned, he'd have to be a complete moron. Since we know that's far from the case, we can probably assume that it won't happen again, so there's no use going around in circles.

I certainly get what you're saying that it's on the NFL refs. Unfortunately, the NFL refs let us, and all of the other 31 teams down in those kinds of situations all the time. In that particular situation, I don't see what taking a timeout could hurt, but that's just me. I'm just pointing out what the other coaches do to combat their mistakes.