Deontae Skinner

letekro said:

When they showed a quick glimpse of the guy on the ground I thought it was Ninkovich (the beard, maybe). When they came back and I found it was Mayo, I have to confess that I was a bit relieved. I think Mayo is very solid against the Run, but he looks to have lost a step or 3 in coverage.

In today's NFL, a player like Mayo is just not as important as in the past. I think Collins and Hightower will be out there in Nickel and Skinner will be just fine alongside those two in obvious running situations. Of course, Mayo's toughness and leadership will be missed.

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Mayo is also the guy on the field who rallies the D and gets them ready quickly. How many times has the Pats O played against a confused D and had nice gains... Mayo was the guy who avoided this on our D.

He will be missed on the field, and in the lockerroom..

DarrylS said:

Mayo is also the guy on the field who rallies the D and gets them ready quickly. How many times has the Pats O played against a confused D and had nice gains... Mayo was the guy who avoided this on our D.

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Lafell's first TD on Sunday was exactly that. The Bills D was in disarray before the play. He had an easy shot.

BradyFTW! said:

My impression was pretty much the same: that Skinner was the backup OLB and Fleming was the backup ILB. When Fleming was cut for Skinner, it was because Collins wasn't able to play in week 2 (and then Hightower thereafter). With Mayo out now, I'd expect to see them both on the 53.

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You have it backwards. Fleming was a backup OLB (read: not pass rushing OLB like Chandler) and Skinner was a backup MLB. Mayo technically plays weakside OLB and MLB which I expect we will see Skinner play.

Side note: It's incredibly hard to discuss LB positions when your team runs both 3-4 and 4-3 But for the most part, just think of 3-4 ILBs as the Will and Mike in a 4-3.

DarrylS said:

Mayo is also the guy on the field who rallies the D and gets them ready quickly. How many times has the Pats O played against a confused D and had nice gains... Mayo was the guy who avoided this on our D.

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I guess he did not play in the Kansas City game then, because our defense was befuddled from start to finish. Saying he does things on tape that fans don't notice is one thing, but I don't think there is much evidence for the proposition that the D is always on top of things when Mayo is in and discombobulated when he is out. I think there is evidence, however, for the fact that the Patriots defense is quite good when Revis/Talib and Dennard are the top 2 CBs and pretty pedestrian when they are not. Either one of those guys is a bigger loss than Mayo and so is Ninkovich and Jones given they are the only guys on the roster that can even get occasional pressure off the edge.

letekro said:

I guess he did not play in the Kansas City game then, because our defense was befuddled from start to finish. Saying he does things on tape that fans don't notice is one thing, but I don't think there is much evidence for the proposition that the D is always on top of things when Mayo is in and discombobulated when he is out. I think there is evidence, however, for the fact that the Patriots defense is quite good when Revis/Talib and Dennard are the top 2 CBs and pretty pedestrian when they are not. Either one of those guys is a bigger loss than Mayo and so is Ninkovich and Jones given they are the only guys on the roster that can even get occasional pressure off the edge.

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KC destroyed us in the run game. Some of that was Mayo's fault, but most of it fell on Chandler Jones and Hightower.

Interesting that Patricia and BB view Skinner as a high ceiling athletically. Not that pro day numbers are everything, but Skinner's pro day numbers weren't so great:

40 yard dash: 4.7 low, 4.9 high
Vertical Jump: 31 inches
Broad Jump: 117 inches
20-yard shuttle: 4.42 seconds (maybe this is his saving grace athletically?)
3-Cone: 7.18 seconds

Skinner could be considered a larger LB these days, weighing 250lbs. Here's a comparison to Preston Brown, another 250lb LB drafted this year:

40 yard dash: 4.75 low, 4.95 high
Vertical Jump: 33 inches
Broad Jump: 116 inches
20-yard shuttle: 4.26 seconds
3-Cone: 6.98 seconds

And then, just to show how useless stats are, you have a guy like CJ Mosley who is an all out beast and has not that amazing of combine stats considering he weighs 15 pounds less than Skinner and Preston Brown.

40 yard dash: 4.58 low, 4.76 high
Vertical Jump: 35 inches
Broad Jump: 118 inches
20-yard shuttle: 4.40 seconds
3-Cone: 7.30 seconds

I'm going to go sit in the corner and talk myself in circles now, thank you.

Deus Irae said:

You and I define success quite differently nowadays, perhaps. Outside of seeding, I don't really care about the regular season when we're talking about real success. For the Patriots, football is a 3-4 game (post)season, in terms of defining success or failure.

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You are correct.

I define 2014 results as among the best ever by the patriots. Both OC's were awesome.

I understand that for some, all that matters is SB wins. For them, little matters other than what happens on SB Sunday. For them, the perfect season was a failure, not a cause for celebration.

So, yes, I do have different perspectives than some.
====
Perhaps, part of the problem is that I am an old man. So, I disagree in your assessment that for the Patriots, football is a 3-4 game season. Since Belichick and Brady arrived, I suppose I can understand (and disagree with) this view. Some of us remember the Patriots of a prior century.

BradyFTW! said:

My impression was pretty much the same: that Skinner was the backup OLB and Fleming was the backup ILB. When Fleming was cut for Skinner, it was because Collins wasn't able to play in week 2 (and then Hightower thereafter). With Mayo out now, I'd expect to see them both on the 53.

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I believe that Skinner has played only in the base before Mayo's injury. He is not an OLB. The backup OLB is Fleming.

I believe there are two issues.
1) Mayo is very, very talented and cannot be replaced. He makes everyone else better.
2) Hightower now needs to step up his play in the sub packages. While we could afford to sit Hightower before (playing Collins and Mayo), that is no longer possible.

mgteich said:

You are correct.

I define 2014 results as among the best ever by the patriots. Both OC's were awesome.

I understand that for some, all that matters is SB wins. For them, little matters other than what happens on SB Sunday. For them, the perfect season was a failure, not a cause for celebration.

So, yes, I do have different perspectives than some.
====
Perhaps, part of the problem is that I am an old man. So, I disagree in your assessment that for the Patriots, football is a 3-4 game season. Since Belichick and Brady arrived, I suppose I can understand (and disagree with) this view. Some of us remember the Patriots of a prior century.

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Many fans have become entitled. This results in what this board has become.

mgteich said:

I believe that Skinner has played only in the base before Mayo's injury. He is not an OLB. The backup OLB is Fleming.

I believe there are two issues.
1) Mayo is very, very talented and cannot be replaced. He makes everyone else better.
2) Hightower now needs to step up his play in the sub packages. While we could afford to sit Hightower before (playing Collins and Mayo), that is no longer possible.

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Hightower has played every down when healthy.
Early on he took Nink off the field in sub, and later took Collins off the field.
Hightower has been our best player on defense when he has been out there (front 7 at least) including, and maybe especially in sub.

Interesting that the focus is on Hightower's new responsibilities. Maybe Hightower ends up with the green dot and takes over some of Mayo's coaching duties, but ultimately it will be Collins who has to step up and fill in Mayo's playing duties. If Collins can't do that (play the run better), Skinner will see more playing time in the nickel as well.

I envision a collaborative effort between Hightower, McCourty and Wilfork on helping with player alignments, with Collins filling Mayo's positional role.

mgteich said:

You are correct.

I define 2014 results as among the best ever by the patriots. Both OC's were awesome.

I understand that for some, all that matters is SB wins. For them, little matters other than what happens on SB Sunday. For them, the perfect season was a failure, not a cause for celebration.

So, yes, I do have different perspectives than some.
====
Perhaps, part of the problem is that I am an old man. So, I disagree in your assessment that for the Patriots, football is a 3-4 game season. Since Belichick and Brady arrived, I suppose I can understand (and disagree with) this view. Some of us remember the Patriots of a prior century.

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Just some notes on this:

1. I'm one of the staunchest defenders of that 2007 team on this board. I certainly don't consider it a failure.
2. I've been watching the Patriots since the 1970's. I, too, have lived through Ben Dreith, Lisa Olson, Rod Rust, **** McPherson, etc...
3. Football success being measured by a 3-4 game (post)season is common sense at this point in the Brady era. The man's missed the playoffs only once in his entire career.
4. 2014 was a great job by Brady and BB the coach. It was, for the most part, a lousy job by BB the GM.

You're welcome to think that the regular season is super duper important to how we should look at this team's success or failure. In an era where 4 of the last 7 Super Bowl champions have had 10 wins or fewer, and the Patriots have not had fewer than 10 wins in the last 11 seasons, I find that difficult to agree with.

There are several teams with elite quarterbacks.

Brees, Rivers, Manning, Luck.

And there are several teams with franchise quarterbacks.

Why arent these teams winning Superbowls every year?

Why are these teams having problems? Why do some of these teams have big problems? Why are they losing games?

Maybe GMing an NFL team isnt as easy or as black and white or as right and wrong as you like to pretend it is from the Internet.

Belichick isnt a lousy GM. Your problem with him is that he's not perfect... or you.

Another Tennessee player, he is a stud at LB
http://247sports.com/Player/AJ-Johnson-766

I've been a big fan of Mayo since they drafted him, and love what he brings to the team as a mentor, coach, field general, and the confidence of his presence. While he's still good, I think his on the field performance has indeed slipped a bit in the past two years. The team will miss some aspects of his presence, but he wouldn't, and couldn't, make the play below that his younger replacement made. That closing speed caught Orton completely by surprise.

So I'm hoping this new young guy can learn really quickly and surprise the heck out of all of us by playoff time. And that his purported strength in run D means that the opposition faces frequent long distance challenges on second and third down, enabling him to be taken off the field and replaced by a big safety, thus limiting the team's vulnerability to his purported weaknesses.

patsinthesnow said:

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Deus Irae said:

You're welcome to think that the regular season is super duper important to how we should look at this team's success or failure. In an era where 4 of the last 7 Super Bowl champions have had 10 wins or fewer, and the Patriots have not had fewer than 10 wins in the last 11 seasons, I find that difficult to agree with.

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Talk about a misuse of statistics. There are plenty of teams with less than 11 wins each year. The vast majority have zero chance mathematically to win the SB. You take for granted that the Patriots are automatic entrants in the playoffs. That's your choice.

RayClay said:

Talk about a misuse of statistics. There are plenty of teams with less than 11 wins each year. The vast majority have zero chance mathematically to win the SB. You take for granted that the Patriots are automatic entrants in the playoffs. That's your choice.

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There was no misuse of statistics. There does seem to be a failure on your part to understand the obvious, though. Try taking another look, and then try thinking about what I wrote. I hope that brings understanding for you. If not, feel free to PM me rather than cluttering up the board.

Deus Irae said:

There was no misuse of statistics. There does seem to be a failure on your part to understand the obvious, though. Try taking another look, and then try thinking about what I wrote. I hope that brings understanding for you. If not, feel free to PM me rather than cluttering up the board.

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Perhaps I meant you have totally lost a sense of cause and effect. Using a small sample, there are different teams who had less than great records, and didn't consistently prform at the top, who happened to win the super bowl, therefore, the way to win a super bowl is to just squeak by to get in the playoffs one particular year and not have consistently excellent records.

Poor Cassel, he had 11 wins, but wasn't in the one magical year where 9 wins makes the playoffs, because if he had a one off 9 win season, he probably would have won the super bowl.

RayClay said:

Talk about a misuse of statistics. There are plenty of teams with less than 11 wins each year. The vast majority have zero chance mathematically to win the SB. You take for granted that the Patriots are automatic entrants in the playoffs. That's your choice.

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The patriots have won or tied for the division every year since Brady arrived. So, we might excuse those who think that the patriots are strongly favored to make the playoffs.

Personally, I do think that every game is important and that the regular season is important. I think that we should appreciate our successes in the regular season, as well as our post-season successes.

HOWEVER, the goal of the regular season is to reach the second season, as Bill and Bill have taught us.

And yes, sometimes that means playing well enough to make the playoffs as a 9-7 or even 8-8 team, as we were discussing after the KC loss.