Matt Chatham with a nice takedown of the "Pats are too cheap and won't get WEAPONZ" crowd

Deus Irae said:

But he's full of it in the article. The Broncos didn't need a OWR1, because they had one. They didn't need an OWR2, because they had one. They didn't need a TE1, because they thought they had one in Thomas. The problem with Chatham's argument is that it's predicated on nothing beyond "They didn't go out and get what they already had". Unfortunately for that argument:

They needed a TE2 and a slot WR. They went out and got a TE2 that Manning was already familiar and comfortable with, in Tamme. They also went out and got the best slot WR in the game. Then, when Decker's deal was up, and he was going to be signed away to be a WR1 with WR1 money, they needed a replacement receiver. They went out and practically stole the guy they wanted. Sanders was literally in the office in K.C., getting ready to sign a contract, and the Broncos went at him hard enough to convince him to leave that place and sign with them.

Contrast that with NE. NE comes out looking exactly the way people have been painting things. NE tried to sign Sanders to a cheap offer sheet and failed. Then, when Sanders was on the market, they signed Lafell on the comparative cheap, instead, while Denver was the team that ponied up for Sanders. In other words, by choosing Denver, Chatham chose the worst possible comparison, and doomed his article from the start.

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Gotta love Deus' revisionist history.

Joel Dreesen (March 23, 2012) and Jacob Tamme (March 29, 2012) were signed by the Broncos in 2012 to be the top 2 TEs for the team. Julius Thomas was the #3 TE for them. He caught ZERO passes in 2012. For you to claim that the Broncos thought they had a #1 TE in Thomas prior to them signing Dreesen and Tamme is an outright fabrication on your part. If Thomas hadn't shown up in 2013, he was a goner.

A 2.5M offer sheet isn't cheap. It was a 2nd round pick. It also forced the Steelers to make some contract changes to other players and push money into the future they didn't want to have to at the time.

Lafell (March 17th, 2014) was signed by the Patriots AFTER Sanders signed with Denver (March 16, 2014) . The Pats had tried to get him to NE before he went to KC and couldn't. Saying that they chose to sign Lafell over Sanders is another fabrication on your part.

Only your own ignorance and revisionist history dooms Chatham's article from the start. Maybe if you stopped making things up and went with reality, you'd be able to follow well written articles and sound intelligent to other people.

For those thinking the Broncos had some grand and clear vision when they went after Sanders:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ching-underscores-nfls-flawed-approach-to-qbs

... If the Broncos win it all this year, they might want to send something nice to the agents for Brandon LaFell and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. In March, Denver was confident that both would be with them in 2014. In both cases, escalating prices drove them elsewhere. Start with LaFell. TheBroncos felt like they were closing in on a deal a few days into free agency, but as they pushed for a conclusion to talks, LaFell's demands rose. And rose. And so, as sticker shock started to set in, the Denver brass came up with an idea: Why not just look at the No. 1 receiver the coaches had on the free-agent board? That player was Emmanuel Sanders, whom Denver had stacked above LaFell and its own free agent, Eric Decker. Initially, the Broncos thought Sanders would be too pricey. A few calls later, they had him at $15 million over three years, rather than LaFell at slightly less.

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So the Broncos originally dismissed signing Sanders because of the perceived cost. In the popular vernacular, they "cheaped out." Then LaFell got too expensive so they "cheaped out" again. And things worked out with Sanders.

There are a lot of pieces to attaining players, and it's not always in control of the teams involved.

BradyToAmendola said:

No one's saying they've done NOTHING to help Brady. But.. has BB let his ego get in the way of a lot of things that have hurt us? Yep (Deion Branch 06, Welker leaving, Mankins being shipped out 10 days before the season, his refusal to take a WR high in the draft because he believes players like Julio Jones and Jonathan Baldwin are the exact same).

Sorry, but Brady's been carrying this team on his back for years.

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Another one with revisionist history.

Deion Branch - Branch was the one who let ego get in the way. Flat out lied to the Fans and the organization saying that he'd play out his contract right before the draft. Patriots focused on other areas and then Branch decided to hold out.

Welker - Umm, the Pats offered Welker a 2year/16 million extension the year before his contract was up. Welker turned it down. They had discussions. Welker hit the market and Bill moved on. How is that "Bill's ego"?

Mankins - Jury is still out on this one. Mankins wouldn't restructure his deal. Pats felt they needed that restructure due to Mankins fall-off in play (which I felt was minimal in comparison to guys like Wendell)

Julio Jones/ Jonathan Baldwin - You are pretty stupid with this one. He said they were the same talent wise. He never commented on their intelligence. There is a good possibility that he never interviewed Jones because he knew that there was no way he'd fall to the Pats. Furthermore, if you think that the Jones trade hasn't had some negative impact on Atlanta, you clearly missed what happened to them last year.

Uncle Rico said:

For those thinking the Broncos had some grand and clear vision when they went after Sanders:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ching-underscores-nfls-flawed-approach-to-qbs



So the Broncos originally dismissed signing Sanders because of the perceived cost. Then LaFell got too expensive so they in the popular vernacular — "cheaped out." And things worked out with Sanders.

There are a lot of pieces to attaining players, and it's not always in control of the teams involved.

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The Broncos felt like they were closing in on a deal a few days into free agency, but as they pushed for a conclusion to talks, LaFell's demands rose. And rose. And so, as sticker shock started to set in, the Denver brass came up with an idea: Why not just look at the No. 1 receiver the coaches had on the free-agent board? That player was Emmanuel Sanders, whom Denver had stacked above LaFell and its own free agent, Eric Decker. Initially, the Broncos thought Sanders would be too pricey. A few calls later, they had him at $15 million over three years, rather than LaFell at slightly less.

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They grabbed their #1 player, because they were willing to pay the extra money. That's sort of the whole point, in reverse, about the Patriots.

FredFromDartmouth said:

Trying is not good enough. Anyone can make an offer, but don't expect success when when you low-ball the WR and tell him he can play for glory instead of cash. They may have "tried" but not very hard.

Reading Chatham would make you think that the Patriots have done a great job acquiring talent for Brady. They might have tried, but not very hard or very effectively. The WRs suck; they are a joke.

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Whaaaaa???

Create your own agenda somewhere else, I gave you facts you are giving me opinions.

Deus Irae said:

They grabbed their #1 player, because they were willing to pay the extra money. That's sort of the whole point, in reverse, about the Patriots.

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Umm.. No.. they went back to their number 1 player when they realized that he wasn't so far out of their range as they thought. There is a difference. Clearly a nuance lost on you.

Deus Irae said:

They grabbed their #1 player, because they were willing to pay the extra money. That's sort of the whole point, in reverse, about the Patriots.

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All right then Enlighten us. Which receivers have the Patriots had as their number 1?

Once we know who they had as their #1s we can the blame them for not going after them.

Deus Irae said:

They grabbed their #1 player, because they were willing to pay the extra money. That's sort of the whole point, in reverse, about the Patriots.

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They did get the number one receiver in the end. But that wasn't their original plan. Both the original decision not to pursue Sanders and the ultimate decision to go after him were motivated by money, perceived and then real.

Uncle Rico said:

They did get the number one receiver in the end. But that wasn't their original plan. Both the original decision not to pursue Sanders and the ultimate decision to go after him were motivated by money, perceived and then real.

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Belichick has a deliberate system. With few exceptions, he'd rather pay 2 guys $3million each than one guy $6 million. That's not what was in play in Denver. Denver initially thought Sanders would be outside their price range. When they realized he was close enough to Lafell to be in range, they pounced. Contrast that with the Patriots/Welker situation. The Patriots went with the slightly cheaper player, instead of paying Welker a bit more.

Again, Denver spent the extra money to get their guy, and NE let Welker go for a couple million. It's another point that destroys Chatham's article.

Green Bay, with its history of avoiding FA, and the failure to replace an injured TE, would have been a much smarter comparison for Chatham.

And you know I wonder what the critics would have answered to this question if asked at the end of last year.

1.Hire Revis

or

2. Hire Elite receiver

(We couldnt have both 1and 2 without trading/releasing Mankins and Kelley).

Deus Irae said:

Belichick has a deliberate system. With few exceptions, he'd rather pay 2 guys $3million each than one guy $6 million. That's not what was in play in Denver. Denver initially thought Sanders would be outside their price range. When they realized he was close enough to Lafell to be in range, they pounce. Contrast that with the Patriots/Welker situation. The Patriots went with the slightly cheaper player, instead of paying Welker a bit more.

Again, Denver spent the extra money to get their guy, and NE let Welker go for a couple million. It's another point that destroys Chatham's article.

Green Bay, with its history of avoiding FA, and the failure to replace an injured TE, would have been a much smarter comparison for Chatham.

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More Deus revisionist history.

When Welker told the Pats that he was hitting the market, they moved on to their next priority. As they should have. Better to be ensured of getting ONE than getting none. Seems that you have forgotten that the Pats attempted to sign Welker to a much more lucrative extension the year before.

I have to agree that Denver is a bad example, they have much better offensive players than the Patriots do, what difference does it make how/when or how much $ it cost to get them there? So the Patriots aren't cheap but they have somehow ended up with what they currently have.....what does that make them then? It almost would be better if it was because they were cheap.

Deus Irae said:

They grabbed their #1 player, because they were willing to pay the extra money. That's sort of the whole point, in reverse, about the Patriots.

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Huh?!? They grabbed their #1 player because they wanted to go cheap with LaFell and when they found out that the cheap option was going to be really expensive and not much cheaper than their #1 option, they decided to pay the little extra for the #1 option. If they could have gotten LaFell on a value deal, he and not Sanders would be in a Broncos uniform.

And there has never been any evidence the Pats have chosen a slightly cheaper option based on money and not talent. And Welker no matter how you spin it is not an example.

What I find ludicrous is the idea that somehow the staff is slacking

Believe it or not, Denver is trying to do it the easy way

DaBruinz said:

Another one with revisionist history.

Deion Branch - Branch was the one who let ego get in the way. Flat out lied to the Fans and the organization saying that he'd play out his contract right before the draft. Patriots focused on other areas and then Branch decided to hold out.

Welker - Umm, the Pats offered Welker a 2year/16 million extension the year before his contract was up. Welker turned it down. They had discussions. Welker hit the market and Bill moved on. How is that "Bill's ego"?

Mankins - Jury is still out on this one. Mankins wouldn't restructure his deal. Pats felt they needed that restructure due to Mankins fall-off in play (which I felt was minimal in comparison to guys like Wendell)

Julio Jones/ Jonathan Baldwin - You are pretty stupid with this one. He said they were the same talent wise. He never commented on their intelligence. There is a good possibility that he never interviewed Jones because he knew that there was no way he'd fall to the Pats. Furthermore, if you think that the Jones trade hasn't had some negative impact on Atlanta, you clearly missed what happened to them last year.

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Deus, believes the Pats should have offered Welker elite WR money and they insulted him for actually offering him a good market value deal for Welker. He thinks the Pats should overpay for all their players.

And as for Mankins, Deus has already determined it was a disaster trade and nothing can ever change this. If that fourth round pick and Tim Wright turn into HOFers, it will be a disaster trade because Deus deemed it was.

At the end of the day the patriots WR core is trash and the Broncos are elite. Which was the same exact case last year

Uncle Rico said:

I think Chatham pretty much says there's a lot to assess when looking at the Patriots' problems right now:

He's also pretty clear about being a homer when it comes to the Patriots. But I think as a look at one of the trendier and specific questions about the Patriots' strategies, it does make some good points.

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I agree. Here's a bit more from the end of the article:

The Patriots aren’t playing well enough right now on offense, and as I’ve stated in the last several weeks, they’re telling you as much. As a former member of this organization, I’d like to know how this is going to get turned around as much as the next.

That said, there’s a ton of time left in the season—and most importantly, I believe the right people (are) in the room to make use of that time and turn this into a much better group. My biases clearly laid out on the table, I think it's only a matter of time before my friend and former teammate, Tom Brady, figures this problem out and the offense hums again as we're used to.

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It seems more popular on this site to join 'the sky is falling' crowd. I'm kind of surprised since it's the exact kind of behavior that Pats fans often criticize others of doing. As Aaron Rodgers said, 'r-e-l-a-x'! People look really asinine beating up on their own team of choice. Let's let things play out some more. The team deserves it.

Deus Irae said:

In other words, by choosing Denver, Chatham chose the worst possible comparison, and doomed his article from the start.

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He says exactly why he chose Denver:

They’re the most successful—the benchmark.

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That's also why others are doing so.

Keep in mind the Broncos went through a lot of suckage during the Jake Plummer, Jay Cutler, Kyle Orton, and Tim Tebow eras that gave them a lot of high draft picks go through a lot of draft winners and losers and we're mainly seeing the aftermath of that, along with some aggressive free agent contracts being handed out by the Elway management team. Yes, that means WIN NOW in a big way, with all the plusses and minuses that brings. They've sucked throughout most of the Brady era, and are cashing in that suckage for a few years of excitement then a lot of suckage once Womanning retires.

BradyToAmendola said:

No one's saying they've done NOTHING to help Brady. But.. has BB let his ego get in the way of a lot of things that have hurt us? Yep (Deion Branch 06, Welker leaving, Mankins being shipped out 10 days before the season, his refusal to take a WR high in the draft because he believes players like Julio Jones and Jonathan Baldwin are the exact same).

Sorry, but Brady's been carrying this team on his back for years.

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Yes, that's true, but we can't give away top of market deals to all the veterans and still win all but two AFC East championships since 2001. We see Denver's owner passed away this year. It seems to me he decided it was OK to blow the team's fiscal wad before he cashed it in, but there will be a price to pay for it.

Bill Lee said:

He says exactly why he chose Denver:

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I know why he said he chose Denver. My point is that choosing Denver was stupid, because it destroys his argument. He could have chosen a team like Green Bay and had a much better argument. People would have been fine saying "Well, Denver's at the top, and that's just one team". Instead, he went full Millen.

My problem with this article is that it ignores the wider reality - yes, people saying the Pats have been cheap are wrong, but Pats not being cheap =/= they actually got talent.

Whether or not they were cheap about it is frankly irrelevant. Pats receiving corps suck. At least if they were being cheap about it they'd have an excuse.

That said, if AH was still here and Amendola was healthy I'm sure we'd all be singing a different tune.

Deus Irae said:

I know why he said he chose Denver. My point is that choosing Denver was stupid, because it destroys his argument. He could have chosen a team like Green Bay and had a much better argument. People would have been fine saying "Well, Denver's at the top, and that's just one team". Instead, he went full Millen.

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Bill Lee - Please forgive Deus. Anything that he disagrees with is automatically homerish and erroneous. And it will remain that way because once Deus has ordained us with his opinion, it's hard fact that can never be changed despite any proof to the contrary..

Such as Deus' claim that the Broncos felt that Thomas was a #1TE in 2012. Yet they went out and signed 2 guys who immediately became the #1 TE and #2 TE in Tamme and Dreessen and that Thomas didn't have a reception that year.

Or the fact that, even though Saunders was their TOP choice, he wasn't their 1st choice since it turned out they were negotiating with Lafell at the same time the Pats were.. And the fact that the Pats had wanted to get Saunders to New England before he went to KC seems to have no bearing for Deus.. a

So, don't get too frustrated with him.. He's just too full of himself and blocks anyone who has proven him wrong..