Talent Level not the issue

On what planet does Danny Amendola qualify as a "talented WR"?

And isn't he healthy now?

condon84 said:

I agree that we don't have elite outside WRs like those you mentioned, but to make it sound like Brady has no talent to throw to is disingenuous. We have the worse OL in the NFL. That is the issue. Brady is scared sh!t back there and I don't blame him.

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You're right, our o-line is horrible. But having nothing at outside WR even makes it worse as no team respects them and can bring everyone up leaving their corners in single coverage.

Boomer B said:

You're right, our o-line is horrible. But having nothing at outside WR even makes it worse as no team respects them and can bring everyone up leaving their corners in single coverage.

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We can have Dez Bryant on one side, and AJ Green on the other side, it's still gonna be hard as hell the way interior rushers quickly get in Brady's face. Brady literally has no time, especially given how predictable our play calling has been, and refusal to try to establish semblance of a running game.

condon84 said:

I agree that we don't have elite outside WRs like those you mentioned, but to make it sound like Brady has no talent to throw to is disingenuous. We have the worse OL in the NFL. That is the issue. Brady is scared sh!t back there and I don't blame him.

If we do somehow fix our OL and then Brady STILL can't find anyone to throw to other than Edelman, then yeah, it is an issue.

I know I wasn't the only one who saw Dobson starting to look really good prior to getting hurt last year. Or that Amendola looked great even with one hamstring against the Bills.

To say that these guys just dropped off after a year is crazy. The OL in my opinion IS the issue. How can you judge any of our skill players fairly with the way our OL has been playing?

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Amendola is clearly not the player he was before the injury
LaFell is the WR3/WR4 he's always been
Thompkins and Dobson are 2nd year players who did very little as rookies and can't get on the field
Gronk is still a shell of himself
Wright is a WR with the TE title, and he can't block worth a damn
OHOH is ..... OHOH

So, other than Edelman, where are all these weapons?

Deus Irae said:

But you think every one of the 65 players on the Patriots is going to the Hall of Fame...

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DEFENSE - I AGREE
Some want a better front seven than Ninkovich, Wilfork, Jones, Jones. Easley, Mayo, Collins and Hightower (plus Buchanan and Vellano). I think that these 9 are plenty good enough to win. Some want better than Revis, Browner, Dennard, Ryan, Arrington, Butler. McCourty, Chung and Wilson. That may e the best defensive backfield since Law left. So, Belichick has chosen to use more resources on the defense. Perhaps, Belichicks believe that the formula to win is a solid defense, and a great QB with mediocre weapons that will give us a top 5 offense with Brady at QB. That is our formula. No team has done better. Poster are jumping of the bandwagon because we are 2-2. I suspect more will jump off by the time bye comes and we are 5-4 or 4-5.

OFFENSE - I DISAGREE
The OL was good enough for Brady's miracles in 2012. Stork and Fleming help=, but this is a year late. Perhaps this OL will be better next year, but it seems doubtful without at one infusion of top talent. Even if both Stork and Fleming work out, we need an addition OG, and some backups. So, the OL might be enough, but it is my no means top talent.
Our RB's are hardly top talent (Ridley, Vereen, White, Bolden, Devlin). Again, they are OK, and maybe as good as last year, but perhaps not.
Our TE's are fine. We were spoiled when we had a base 2 TE offense. We are back to a 1TE base for which Gronk, Wright and Hooman are fine. And yes, our one starting TE is a top talent.
Our WR's are mediocre at best. Brady can succeed with a mediocre set of receivers. Yes, we can do OK with a slot receiver catching more than anyone else (as we did with Welker and Brown). but that doesn't make Edelman a star. You bolded AMENDOLA. Why? He is the problem, not the solution. If he were truly in the class of Gronk or Edelman, then he would be producing in the slot, and Edelamn would be doing better as a downfield receiver. Dobson and Thompkins may or may not be talented. It seems that Dobson is talented and immature. It is curious that you fail to mention LaFell who is the only reason for hope at the moment. We MAY be much better when Gronk is more healthy with Edelman and LaFell as our primary receivers. BUT FACE SOME REALITY, we need something from Amendola, Dobson and Thompkins, something more than having them being occasionally active on agate day.

BOTTOM LINE
Our defense does have talent. We can do well even with our OL, TE's and RB's. We CANNOT succeed without someONE of the invisible receivers actually being a talent.

Deus Irae said:

Amendola is clearly not the player he was before the injury
LaFell is the WR3/WR4 he's always been
Thompkins and Dobson are 2nd year players who did very little as rookies and can't get on the field
Gronk is still a shell of himself
Wright is a WR with the TE title, and he can't block worth a damn
OHOH is ..... OHOH

So, other than Edelman, where are all these weapons?

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You are judging these players in this current state where it's impossible for them to produce because of our OL.

Like I said, if our OL gets fixed and they still can't produce, then I will hop on the "these guys suck" wagon.

mgteich said:

DEFENSE - I AGREE
Some want a better front seven than Ninkovich, Wilfork, Jones, Jones. Easley, Mayo, Collins and Hightower (plus Buchanan and Vellano). I think that these 9 are plenty good enough to win. Some want better than Revis, Browner, Dennard, Ryan, Arrington, Butler. McCourty, Chung and Wilson. That may e the best defensive backfield since Law left. So, Belichick has chosen to use more resources on the defense. Perhaps, Belichicks believe that the formula to win is a solid defense, and a great QB with mediocre weapons that will give us a top 5 offense with Brady at QB. That is our formula. No team has done better. Poster are jumping of the bandwagon because we are 2-2. I suspect more will jump off by the time bye comes and we are 5-4 or 4-5.

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The thing is, mgteich, they have problems on all 3 levels.

Defensive line - Wilfork is the only one who can stop the run now that Siliga's out, and the so-called pass rushers have been mostly lousy at rushing the passer

Linebackers - There's no depth and Collins doesn't belong starting.

Secondary - S2 is a disaster


And, when you screw over one side of the ball long enough, it eventually bites you in the ass. That's what we're seeing with the offense.

condon84 said:

You are judging these players in this current state where it's impossible for them to produce because of our OL.

Like I said, if our OL gets fixed and they still can't produce, then I will hop on the "these guys suck" wagon.

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Please tell me which weapon(s) I 'judged' incorrectly, regardless of the O-line.

Deus Irae said:

Please tell me which weapon(s) I 'judged' incorrectly, regardless of the O-line.

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How can you fairly judge our receivers given that our OL gives our QB no time to throw accurate balls?

Is it fair to say Brady now sucks too given how he's played so far?

Deus Irae said:

Amendola is clearly not the player he was before the injury
LaFell is the WR3/WR4 he's always been
Thompkins and Dobson are 2nd year players who did very little as rookies and can't get on the field
Gronk is still a shell of himself
Wright is a WR with the TE title, and he can't block worth a damn
OHOH is ..... OHOH

So, other than Edelman, where are all these weapons?

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And with all that said, we can succeed if we can get serious production out of one of Amendola, Thompkins and Dobson.

Let me choose Dobson, since he is the most likely to produce of the three.

TARGETS
WR: Edelman, Dobson, LaFell
TE: Gronkowski, Wright
RB: Vereen (with White as backup)

To me, this an acceptable set of targets for Brady. In a given game, they would get over 90% of the receiving reps. And yes, we need one more receiver who might produce in case of injury.

YES, THESE ARE TWO BIG IF'S
1) Someone must step up to be a downfield receiver.
2) Someome must step up to be an acceptable backup.
Candidates: Amendola, Dobson, Thompkins, Boyce, Tyms, street fa, trade

To me, the crisis is still at WR (as it was to start last year). The OL situation can become acceptable (with better play calling and better play from WR's). The defense needs better coaching and the addition of a starting CB (Browner or Dennard), but that is doable.

condon84 said:

How can you fairly judge our receivers given that our OL gives our QB no time to throw accurate balls?

Is it fair to say Brady now sucks too given how he's played so far?

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Answer the question. Here, I'll break them down to the individuals.

Amendola's a slot guy. He is not supposed to need a lot of time to get open. He's not getting open. Does he look to be the same player he was before the injury?

No need to answer about Gronk, because EVERYONE can see that he's not the Gronk of old.

Do you think LaFell is suddenly more than he was in Carolina?

Have the second year guys been getting on the field and making dozens of catches without us all knowing?

Do you think OHOH has magically transformed into something other than the OHOH we already knew?

Wright is the only unknown here, in terms of being a receiving weapon, and he is as I posted. He's a WR with the TE label, and he's a negative when it comes to blocking.

The OL is a dumpster fire right now
The TEs are a dumpster fire right now
The WRs are a dumpster fire right now

Other than that, Brady's got no worries

When I think of Danny Amendola I think of how he broke the record for the most receptions in a half held by Reggie Wayne a few years ago... or the Buffalo game last season, or flashes vs Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Indianapolis

Additionally, I've seen him make some great plays (especially against SF) during his stint with St.Louis, the guy looked really good and this was with Sam Bradford throwing him the ball.

Thompkin's case was the Tampa game, Atlanta game both where he had two touchdowns and over 100 yards receiving, the brilliant game vs Detroit in the preseason where Chris Houston got abused.. two big plays vs CAR for 30 yards each, nearly scoring on the last one and the great preseasons/training camps that he has had... he has the ability

Aaron Dobson was getting better and better and better as the year progressed... and everyone, just think back to the game he had vs Pittsburgh and you can really see his potential or what he could pan out to be...

Then I say to myself.. we got 3 with Deion Branch, David Givens, David Patten, and Troy Brown.

The last 5 games last season, the only tightend that had more touchdown receptions outside of Tim Wright was Jimmy Graham, and thats with Glennon throwing him the ball, I'm just saying.

Tom Brady looks at his offensive lines and offensive weapons:

NEPettyOfficer72 said:

The last 5 games last season, the only tightend that had more touchdown receptions outside of Tim Wright was Jimmy Graham, and thats with Glennon throwing him the ball, I'm just saying.

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Tim Wright only had 5 TDs all season.

I'm just saying.

Deus Irae said:

Tom Brady looks at his offensive lines and offensive weapons:

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Then he looks back and says to himself "Damn, I got by with David Patten, David Givens, Troy Brown and Deion Branch.. and Christian Fauria and Daniel Graham as tightends, hmmmm"

Deus Irae said:

Tim Wright only had 5 TDs all season.

I'm just saying.

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Thats after he got in his groove the last 5 games, he was just a rookie after all in a BAD offense, I'm just saying

NEPettyOfficer72 said:

Then he looks back and says to himself "Damn, I got by with David Patten, David Givens, Troy Brown and Deion Branch.. and Christian Fauria and Daniel Graham as tightends, hmmmm"

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That lineup would be an enormous upgrade over what's out there right now.

hmmmmm

Deus Irae said:

Answer the question. Here, I'll break them down to the individuals.

Amendola's a slot guy. He is not supposed to need a lot of time to get open. He's not getting open. Does he look to be the same player he was before the injury?

No need to answer about Gronk, because EVERYONE can see that he's not the Gronk of old.

Do you think LaFell is suddenly more than he was in Carolina?

Have the second year guys been getting on the field and making dozens of catches without us all knowing?

Do you think OHOH has magically transformed into something other than the OHOH we already knew?

Wright is the only unknown here, in terms of being a receiving weapon, and he is as I posted. He's a WR with the TE label, and he's a negative when it comes to blocking.

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You may be right. But I'll reserve judgement until our OL can at least give Brady time.

We can bring this thread back up if our OL does get fixed and these weapons still suck.

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