Let's talk defensive line

Deus Irae said:

An other question for BB and this board:

How much of Ninkovich's slow start is because of him being used differently as a result of Collins?

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I think Hightower has had a greater impact on Ninkovich's role than Collins has.

they are inconsistent on defense and I don't think that will change all year I think they will look really good vs a much better the KC 3-0 cincy team at home I see them going 7-1 at home and maybe 3-5 on the road

goheels22002 said:

but I thought Andy Reid and the Chiefs ran a lot of plays for Charles and Davis that were creative in overloading at the point of attack so that the runner was in funnel of blockers to make it hard for the D-linemen to get to the rusher.

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Right or wrong, that's why I feel we were "out-coached"... I felt our D looked confused as if they expected and prepared for something irrelevant, and were unable to adjust.

I'm stuck in NJ, so this is the first Pats game I could see... tough game to watch. Not sure about Nink's slow start, but I felt they targeted the opposite side of the line in the run game... J. Charles just fooled Jones into the wrong gap that one play, taking advantage of the edge... The Chiefs must've saw this as one soft-spot to attack....

Deus, I'm not savvy enough to solve the problem... finding a good interior D-lineman on the street is a pipedream... Vellano isn't an answer, and man, so bummed when Siliga went out....

This team is very lean on the D line, no beef. They would appear to be built to pressure . They should look allot different with Denard and Browner out there. They rolled the dice last night with the off coverage and the zone. They got burned bad by a talented offense and a very smart coach. They attacked the crap out of the edges of our defense. Let's give KC some credit, from the first 3rd and 8 conversion on, they were money. Ryan can be had and all safeties other than the one named mccourty are a liability. Overall a pretty bad performance, this defense will look completely different come Sunday night.

Gronkowski123 said:

easley doesn't look healthy at all. also very small/just gets pushed around.
seems like a bust but it's early.

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I'm guessing he's still learning the Patriot way to play DT - read first, then react (i.e. get up off the ground). That explosion off the snap won't be tolerated here.

Sfpat said:

I'm guessing he's still learning the Patriot way to play DT - read first, then react (i.e. get up off the ground). That explosion off the snap won't be tolerated here.

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Easley is undersized and unprepared because of his offseason. His early struggles were to be expected.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...g-2014-nfl-season.1111090/page-2#post-3888965

It seems that Pats DL, and defense in general, is thinking too much and not playing instinctively. They remind me of Tiger Woods playing the US Open at Southern Hills. Tiger was so concerned about the rough that he hit irons off almost every tee but still missed most fairways. So instead of hitting short irons out of the rough, he was stuck with long irons out of the rough and wound up fairing poorly.

Same with the Pats D. They are thinking too much about preventing the big plays that they fail to be instinctive and thus lose the edge, get run over and wind up giving up the big plays. Patricia and BB need to turn the dogs loose and let 'em play.

Brady&Springsteen FTW said:

Are you ******* kidding me? It's been 4 games, he's missed training camp, and is coming off a torn ACL.

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yea i know but i'm pissed like everyone else.

The defense doesnt have any leaders who can go and tell the coaches what they feel. They are just doing what they are asked to do . I brought this up before- Its well known during SB XXXIX week that the players were not happy with the defensive gameplan and complained to romeo and BB to simplify it. We dont have those characters right now.

luuked said:

As many have already said, if we can play more aggressive in the secondary we might be able to put more bodies closer to the LOS to protect against the run. This is why we pay Revis the big bucks, so he can shrink the field. Risky, but if you pay for supposed elite talent you have to let said talent do his thing.

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We might be able to be more aggressive when Dennard and Browner are 100%.

You do understand that Ryan has not been good with his present assignments. More is probably not a good idea. He was benched for poor play during Sunday's game, after the penalty.

SVN said:

The defense doesnt have any leaders who can go and tell the coaches what they feel. They are just doing what they are asked to do . I brought this up before- Its well known during SB XXXIX week that the players were not happy with the defensive gameplan and complained to romeo and BB to simplify it. We dont have those characters right now.

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So, now Wilfork and Mayo are wimps?

mgteich said:

So, now Wilfork and Mayo are wimps?

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I didnt imply that. Its just the personalties are different. You cant compare mayo to bruschi or rodney. They maybe equally good players but dont think mayo can go and give tom a pep talk or tell patricia something is not going to work. Bruschi would. Of course this is just an inference from what I see on TV so I could very wll be wrong. Just an opinion.

SVN said:

I didnt imply that. Its just the personalties are different. You cant compare mayo to bruschi or rodney. They maybe equally good players but dont think mayo can go and give tom a pep talk or tell patricia something is not going to work. Bruschi would. Of course this is just an inference from what I see on TV so I could very wll be wrong. Just an opinion.

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No, you are correct about Bruschi. McGuinst and Law were in that same group. Less so for Rodney IMHO.

The back room issue is more that now it is Brady's team. HE is the leader. And yes, I do believe that Wilfork (well one of them) and Mayo would speak up to Patricia.

BTW, the last time we were beat this badly, it was partially BECAUSE Bruschi was so outspoken about the cutting of a starter (Milloy). As you might real, we lost 31-0 in that first game and won the Super Bowl.

mgteich said:

We might be able to be more aggressive when Dennard and Browner are 100%.

You do understand that Ryan has not been good with his present assignments. More is probably not a good idea. He was benched for poor play during Sunday's game, after the penalty.

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As a football novice (at least compared to many other posters here) I have a genuine question. Is there a reason why it has to be all or nothing ? Can't we play aggressive with the elite CB on one side of the field and play something more suited to Ryan on the other ?

I fully understand that Ryan has a different skill set than Browner and Dennard. But making Revis play more conservatively than necessary made QBs go after him instead of avoiding him.

JackBauer said:

Losing Siliga hurts.
Jones has been wildly inconsistent. Excellent at times but undisciplined at others.
Easley looks like a rookie coming off injury with no TC.
Wilfork has been up and down, but forced to play more than I'd like.
Ninkovich has been mostly invisible.
Not sure what to think about Chris Jones.
Vellano...why, BB? Just why?

PS: I miss Tommy Kelly

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I note your observations and agree with them especially the absence of another good anti-run Big Body like Siliga.

As to Kelley I was surprised when the Pats released him, only to find out he asked for his release. The ostensible reason is that he felt platooning with Easley was beneath him, and hurt his possible incentive pay. Certainly the Pats were going to give some snaps to their First round pick.

But he signed with the Cards for the exact same pay, minus any incentives, so that doesn't wash. If he stayed, he would have had the position and Vellano would have been consigned to the PS.

I can only hope that Walker turns out as well as Sealver did, in three or four games.

Belichick has mentioned a few times already how the new collective bargaining agreement limits the number of practices, and the impact it has on getting the players ready for the season.

With that in mind, I was surprised when I saw the Pats starting to play a 3-4 front in the preseason. They hadn't played that front on a standard basis over the last few years, so it meant additional coaching and time spent on technique. And specific to the D line, and maybe to Chandler Jones specifically, since the start of the season we have seen him play the DE in the 3-4, the OLB in the 3-4, DE in the 4-3 and some DT in nickel and dime packages. All that with less practice time... it's probably a bit much to ask 1 player to learn all these assignments given their reduced practice time.

To quote Reiss, maybe the coaching staff is over-thinking this. I would think that with less practice time, the less complicated the defense is the better. We have a high number of 1st rounder starting on this defense, they should be athletic enough and have good enough football instinct to play well without an elaborated game plan.

AzPatsFan said:

I note your observations and agree with them especially the absence of another good anti-run Big Body like Siliga.

As to Kelley I was surprised when the Pats released him, only to find out he asked for his release. The ostensible reason is that he felt platooning with Easley was beneath him, and hurt his possible incentive pay. Certainly the Pats were going to give some snaps to their First round pick.

But he signed with the Cards for the exact same pay, minus any incentives, so that doesn't wash. If he stayed, he would have had the position and Vellano would have been consigned to the PS.

I can only hope that Walker turns out as well as Sealver did, in three or four games.

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Well, I wouldn't say that his contract with the Cards negates or takes away from his reasoning for asking for a release from the Patriots. He may have simply overestimated what the market would be when he asked for the release.

Completely different sport but I look at Stephen Drew this year for the Red Sox as an (admittedly mediocre) comparison. Drew didn't sign the one year qualifying offer the Red Sox made because (reportedly) he was looking for a multi-year deal. Fast forward to the season and no multi-year deal was available for Stephen Drew, so he ended up signing with the Red Sox after the season began for basically the same one year contract...except he didn't play the first month or so so he didn't get the full amount of money that he would have if he had just accepted the offer. That doesn't mean that the reports of him looking for a multi-year deal "doesn't wash", so to speak. It simply means he took a gamble, and in the end lost money on it.

In my opinion, it's still very likely that Kelly asked for a release because he thought there was a chance the market would pay him more than what he had to eventually take from the Cards. I could be wrong, of course and he may have had other motives...but to me his contract with the Cards is not an indication of that.

I think people are taking ACL surgeries too lightly. It takes two years for the graft to be completely assimilated by the body. No amount of rehab can accelerate this process significantly. Those who are throwing Easley and Gronk under the bus 12 and 10 months after their surgeries need to get some perspective. My concern with Easley is his size--he's going to keep getting pushed around on running plays even after he regains some of his explosiveness.

AzPatsFan said:

...But he signed with the Cards for the exact same pay, minus any incentives, so that doesn't wash...

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Why do people keep making this claim when we know it's total nonsense? Players, and people, make this type of choice all the time.

Deus Irae said:

Ok, but how much of that is because Siliga is the only DL besides Wilfork who has any lead in his ass, as opposed to technique issues or mental failings? When teams are able to target Jones on the DL and Collins at LB, and run all over them, what percentage is confusion and what percentage is personnel?

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Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Collins is not a quality NFL LB. He is not capable of playing the run effectively, and his play in the passing game is overrated based on one game.

Chandler Jones can regularly be blocked one on one, and he is ran at fairly easily. His pass rush arsenal consists of coming off the ball slowly, and using some kind of goofy hesitation step to fool his blocker. It wins once in awhile, but not consistently. Teams have no need to slide protection for him.

Nink should be a depth player, nothing more.

Vince is an old fat guy coming off a torn achilles. We're getting exactly what she should expect from him.

This team is at a pure talent disadvantage almost every time it takes the field.