Let's talk defensive line

SeanBruschi54 said:

Simple, he stated he asked to leave because guys who were not playing as well as him (who were making less in his words) were getting more time than him and he was not ok with that happening.

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Well, that does not sit well with me. If he is playing better, then he should get more playing time. He is right to ask for a change of scenery, and we should have enough foresight to know that losing a player of his caliber makes us worse as a team.

So basically, we lose 2 stalwarts (Kelly and Mankins), effectively weakening both our lines and here we sit wondering why we are not as good as we thought we were.

We are having a hard time getting a pass rush, we can't seem to stop the run, we can't cover tight ends and running backs, our corners are playing 10 yards off the receiver. I'm not sure if there is a quick fix here, but I'd start with getting more people closer to the line, playing man to man, blitz more often and be more aggressive in general.

There are not a lot of personnel options at this point. If there are to be major changes it will have to come from re-thinking schemes (please oh please). The personnel has limitations, but they are better than last year in talent and worse in performance. My view is that the main issue boils down to asking players to do too many things which are not their strengths. This goes to the entire defense and not just the line, of course. Guys like Revis, Mayo, Ninko, Hightower, Jones (x2) and Easley are downhill players who are most effective when they are playing aggressive press coverage and rush, not chasing guys around the secondary and playing two gaps on stronger players. I would like to see them simplify their approach and challenge players to lean on their physical strengths and see where the chips fall. It seems obvious, but it must all be wrong because, after all, this is Belichick's forté, right?

I think some of it is coaching and cohesion. Put aside Vellano, the rest seem capable but almost disorganized and not disciplined. For instance, Chandler is so intent on the rush to the QB he forgets he has to seal the edge on a run. I never counted, but it seems a majority of the pass plays the DL pushes once, then waits to put their hands up... versus push, push, push... then hands up. I'll have to go back and look, but I think we play a lot of two gap technique, which requires more skill and discipline... versus one gap and let the LB take responsibility for the other hole.

Lack of blitzing and varied blitzing schemes is also making it harder on the DL. When you blitz (with different schemes), the OL is always left guessing and it keeps them a tiny bit slower in their reactions. Then when you don't blitz, and run stunts or slants the OL has more to think about.

It does not appear that there is a LB problem in filling the holes, but we play so much zone that they are too far off the line to be effective on runs.

I like the old days of the 7 roaming around the box, then setting up right before the snap.

Couple that with Wilfork not playing up to par for whatever reason and you struggle to stop the run, poor pressure on the QB and be susceptible to screens.

The only way the defensive schemes could get worse is if we play both Revis and Browner 10 yards off their man for extended periods of time. If that happens, someone needs to be fired.

This is where BB deserves criticism. By cutting Kelly he weakened the DL considerably.
I have long been a "In Belichick we trust" fan but with the rather odd personnel and coaching decisions that started in training camp, I find myself for the first time questioning BB as both coach and GM.
You are never as good or bad as your last game in this league, but last night was really just an extension of the Raiders game, only facing better competition. that is 8 lousy quarters of play, 4 of which were against 1 of the two worst teams in the league where the Pats barely squeeked out a win at home.
By year 3, our star pass rusher should not be so undisciplined.
Our other DE has quite literally been invisible for game long stretches.
Our anchor on the DL is coming off a career threatening injury and has no legitimate back up.
Our first round pick at a clear position of need is coming off a series of horrific injuries and is nowhere near ready for the riggers of a full game in the trenches
How is the current state of the DL not a GM and or coaching issue?

As to solutions, Deuce, I really don't know. Maybe the return of Browner and Dennard will allow the coaches more flexibility in terms of scheming? I really don't know!

Tom meets Kaepernick said:

The only way the defensive schemes could get worse is if we play both Revis and Browner 10 yards off their man for extended periods of time. If that happens, someone needs to be fired.

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If Revis and Browner play off coverage and zone read against the Bengals, I will pull a "Talented Mr. Ripley" on Matt Patricia.

An other question for BB and this board:

How much of Ninkovich's slow start is because of him being used differently as a result of Collins?

Jones is so explosive. But was run at so much last night and they ran right past him. Every single person sucked last night besides lafell and jimmy G and slater

First, we should all thank DI for starting a rational discussion.

We played one of the best running games in the NFL. Reid/Childress and the others had one of the best game plans ever, with play-calling to match. There were plays that Tirico gads never seven seen.

MOST SERIOUS PROBLEMS - COACHING, COACHING AND COACHING
How would YOU defense a team with 2 top runners, one of who is one of the very best in the game, especially with their 3rd down back out? What would YOU try to take away? A novice like me might focus on taking away the run. I would rarely be in nickel, especially when KC was ahead a trying to eat up the clock. It seemed as if KC coaches had written the game plan they wanted to play against.

And just BTW, why were so many defenders out of place, faked out of their shorts, and actually falling down without being hit. The defensive front was unprepared for what KC had to give.

IMHO, I think that this set of talent would have done much, much better if there had been a better game plan and better coaching during the game, and better adjustments.

This is the very worst coached patriot defensive games I've seen in this century.

TALENT
First, the defensive front talent is better than last year when we were a 10 ten defense in points allowed. Sure I'd prefer more depth at DE and LB, but we are better.

Compared to last year, the DL has added Wilfork and Easley. This week, we lost Siliga and replaced him with another UDFA wide body. We should be even more improved as Easley developed. Compared to last year, we have added Mayo and Skinner & lost Spikes and Fletcher. Personally, I think that this is a net plus. Obviosuly, we could tweak the backup LB position, as has already been done.

DEFENSIVE BACKFIELD
Our talent is much better. It will even be more improved when we add Browner. I mention the DB's for context. The DL is playing with better defensive backs. They even have LB and dime help from Arrington and Ebner.

Deus Irae said:

Ok, Siliga is out of the picture for a while, so what's the solution? Is there someone out there that people think could help, or is this team going to have to keep trying to scheme it?

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I'm guessing it's going to be the latter, but we do have an extra 4th round pick, after all. None of us are going to forget that fact. I don't have any clue as to who you'd target, however.

Chris Jones had a decent game last night. 2 tackles, 1 QB hit, 1/2 sack and seemed to be around the ball all the time on running plays while he was in there.

Every comment is about how the Patriots screwed up on here, but I thought Andy Reid and the Chiefs ran a lot of plays for Charles and Davis that were creative in overloading at the point of attack so that the runner was in funnel of blockers to make it hard for the D-linemen to get to the rusher. Kudos for the Chiefs' play design to limit the issues with a crappy offensive line.

I didn't see the D-Line as the major problem against the Chiefs. The Patriots offense left the defense out there forever - 36:27 TOP for the Chiefs. The D-Line can only be expected to battle for so long in a game like that on the road. It seemed like the corners were soft and the linebackers late to the point of attack a lot.

easley doesn't look healthy at all. also very small/just gets pushed around.
seems like a bust but it's early.

The way I would approach this entire dilemma is start to leverage the position where we are supposedly very, very strong which is our secondary.

As many have already said, if we can play more aggressive in the secondary we might be able to put more bodies closer to the LOS to protect against the run. This is why we pay Revis the big bucks, so he can shrink the field. Risky, but if you pay for supposed elite talent you have to let said talent do his thing.

Apart from that I am really mostly clueless. Maybe BB really needs to simplify his D schemes a bit and let the players play a bit. This would be surprising especially because our D consists mostly of people who have been in the system for some time. I don't know.


Finally, I don't see any realistic trading options, and my guess is that if something would be done with our extra fourth then it would most probably be to stabilize the OL. But this is a discussion for another thread.

Deus Irae said:

It's becoming more and more clear that there are issues on the line, both with scheme and personnel. I don't want to pigeon hole the discussion beyond that, but let's stalk D-line issues and solutions. Also, let's see if we can keep this both sane and relatively on point. The other threads are firing off and have mutliple topics, so let's make this one a bit different.

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I think this topic begins and ends with: why was the entire D Line blown off the ball? Their technique was poor; few players got penetration or even stood the blocker up. No hands inside the pads. Vanilla stunts. Bad gap reads. And that's just for starters.

On some running plays I don't think the DTs knew where the ball was.

Deus Irae said:

An other question for BB and this board:

How much of Ninkovich's slow start is because of him being used differently as a result of Collins?

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Collins? Who ? That guy was completely invisible all game long. Actually all 4 games.

Lack of depth, especially in the interior is a major concern. I do not think they have the talent or stoutness needed to stop the running game in nickel and dime formations, which was what they were in primarily last night, after the Siliga injury.

Furthermore, I am curious to see if the returns of Browner and Dennard, which will bring the secondary to full health, constitutes a schematic change from this zone-based defense to more of an attacking press-man defense with more blitzes?

Gronkowski123 said:

easley doesn't look healthy at all. also very small/just gets pushed around.
seems like a bust but it's early.

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Are you ******* kidding me? It's been 4 games, he's missed training camp, and is coming off a torn ACL.

supafly said:

I'm guessing it's going to be the latter, but we do have an extra 4th round pick, after all. None of us are going to forget that fact. I don't have any clue as to who you'd target, however.

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The problem with trying to scheme it is that the DL personnel is really not NFL level against the run, outside of Wilfork. So, how do you scheme to stop the run when you don't really have anyone who can stop the run? I think that's where this staff is stuck when it comes to the DL. Belichick has gone so far into the tank for interior pressure that he's coming up short, personnel-wise, with stoutness at the point of attack, because he's drafting lightweights.

Linebacker play by Mayo and Collins behind the big fellas hasn't been that great. Mayo isn't shedding blocks like he used to. Collins is really, really bad at tackling. Like, really bad. It's hard to think he's a Linebacker.

I also feel we aren't putting Easley in the best spot to be successful. We keep playing him at NG or 1-tech in the nickel and dime with Jones and Nink at 5-tech. Easley just gets swallowed up so easily in that situation. I'd like to see him permanently at 3-tech where we can get him some 1-on-1s that I expect he could win more frequently.