BELICHICK IS TO BLAME.

the easley pick was idiotic. a guy with two bad knees? bill, what are you smocking?

PATS16N0 said:

I respectfully have to disagree. As the offensive coordinator, he's the one coordinating this ****. He's the orchestrator and composer of hot garbage. Every single offense we've had has under performed since he has arrived. Every one. We're almost always facing 2nd and longs. He loves that worthless half back toss that gets stuffed 99% of the time for a loss. He loves that idiotic delayed draw.

Had it with him

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Please list all the years with Josh as OC. Please list all of those where the offense was not a top 5 offense.
It has already documented in this thread that Belichick uses almost no top draft picks on the offense. So, being a top 5 offense is decidedly NOT underperforming.

Deus Irae said:

That's simply not even close to being true.

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Even in 2012 when our offense was annihilating people he was running needlessly gimmicky garbage, and for all the numbers that offense put up that year, a case could be made that it should have put up even more. Then it turned into Jacksonville in the AFC Championship and we couldn't do anything in the red zone.

Look at the San Fran game in 2012 and the Denver game in 2013.
We go up against a great team and Josh's play calling and game plan goes to absolute ****, and the way we won the game (or in San Fran's case made it `Game of the Year` competitive) was by throwing his ideas in the trash can and simply letting Brady sling us back from the jaws of defeat.

PATS16N0 said:

I respectfully have to disagree. As the offensive coordinator, he's the one coordinating this ****. He's the orchestrator and composer of hot garbage. Every single offense we've had has under performed since he has arrived. Every one. We're almost always facing 2nd and longs. He loves that worthless half back toss that gets stuffed 99% of the time for a loss. He loves that idiotic delayed draw.

Had it with him

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One of my McDaniels issues is often I don't have a problem with the playcall more the personnel the Patriots attempt it with.

mgteich said:

Please list all the years with Josh as OC. Please list all of those where the offense was not a top 5 offense.
It has already documented in this thread that Belichick uses almost no top draft picks on the offense. So, being a top 5 offense is decidedly NOT underperforming.

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Josh is the reason we were a top 5 offense? Not Brady, Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, etc etc etc?

PATS16N0 said:

Even in 2012 when our offense was annihilating people he was running needlessly gimmicky garbage, and for all the numbers that offense put up that year, a case could be made that it should have put up even more. Then it turned into Jacksonville in the AFC Championship and we couldn't do anything in the red zone.

Look at the San Fran game in 2012 and the Denver game in 2013.
We go up against a great team and Josh's play calling and game plan goes to absolute ****, and the way we won the game (or in San Fran's case made it `Game of the Year` competitive) was by throwing his ideas in the trash can and simply letting Brady sling us back from the jaws of defeat.

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Yes, if you keep moving the goalposts, you'll eventually be right. Here you go: McDaniels isn't perfect, therefore he needs to go.

Problem solved.


In reality, though, McDaniels has been the O.C. for something like 2 or 3 of the top 5 scoring offenses of all time.

Deus Irae said:

Ridley came into tonight averaging 3.4 ypc, and the Chiefs have Dontari Poe sitting on the nose, while the Patriots were playing a completely revamped interior OL. Why would you think pounding the ball up the middle would be the way to go?

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Because Vereen has never proved himself to be a legitimate runner. He's a good 3rd down guy and decent receiver but he's not a guy you hand the ball to when you need a tough yard or two.

As far as the Chiefs run D it wasn't great coming into this week. Lamar Miller had a decent game against them and he's not a great back. Poe didn't seem to penetrate that much to me, seemed to be more the edge rushers.

Regardless games like this are where we need a solid running game. Running the ball effectively takes the crowd out of the game and eats up the clock, two major factors that would have helped immensely tonight.

203Pat said:

Because Vereen has never proved himself to be a legitimate runner. He's a good 3rd down guy and decent receiver but he's not a guy you hand the ball to when you need a tough yard or two.

As far as the Chiefs run D it wasn't great coming into this week. Lamar Miller had a decent game against them and he's not a great back. Poe didn't seem to penetrate that much to me, seemed to be more the edge rushers.

Regardless games like this are where we need a solid running game. Running the ball effectively takes the crowd out of the game and eats up the clock, two major factors that would have helped immensely tonight.

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Solid running game does not generally equal running the ball at the opponent's best run defender.

Deus Irae said:

Yes, if you keep moving the goalposts, you'll eventually be right. Here you go: McDaniels isn't perfect, therefore he needs to go.

Problem solved.


In reality, though, McDaniels has been the O.C. for something like 2 or 3 of the top 5 scoring offenses of all time.

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I've said the same about him plenty of times, because when Brady to Gronk and Brady to Edelman and Brady to Welker is making his schtick work it's all gravy, but that doesn't change the fact that we waste our 1st down it seems like 80% of the time, run a lot of ridiculous plays on 3rd and short, and he is constantly calling plays that put us in situations Brady has to overcome.

We were AFC Champions in 2011 under O'Brien (I know Josh came in late that post season), played well in 2012 despite wasted plays on his bad gimmicks and trick plays better suited to desperate teams, and it's been a rapid decline ever since.

I like Josh, I'm just super pissed off right now.
lol

Deus Irae said:

Solid running game does not generally equal running the ball at the opponent's best run defender.

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So you really think stretch plays to Vereen are the way to go with Justin Houston and Tamba Hali on the edges?

FWIW, I agree that Belichick was badly out coached. However, it was our defense that was schooled. They looked out of place all game. The offense had its continuing problems.

DEFENSE
After last week, I warned that our defense was untested. Tonight they were tested and came up wanting. They were rarely in the right place. The various offensive set confused them so much that they often were falling down when faked. Ryan was benched. The defense needs much better coaching. One can hope for some improvement when Browner and/or Dennard is added.

OFFENSE
It is difficult to blame both Josh and the lack of talent.

The offensive line was in its first time together. They made lots and lots of mistakes. One can only hope that they will improve. They were really bad. This just isn't on Josh. Obviously, the OL coach for KC has also been working with a lack of talent (primarily due to injuries). He seems to have adapted while our coach has not.

I haven't a clue why Brady isn't on the same wavelength as his receivers on more plays. Edelman, Gronk, Vereen, and LaFell were fine when thrown to, especially LaFell. Even White looked OK as a receiver. We need another receiver. Amendola is our #3, but Brady has little faith in him.

So which of the three problems of the offense are on Josh: the very poor OL, the lack of production by any of #3-#5 receivers, or the lack of coordination between Brady and the receivers.

NEEDS
1) better coaching on both sides
The players were rarely in the right place to make a play. Andy Reid ran a coaching clinic.
2) improved play by the OL
This will take a lot of analysis week to week. We need to see where we are after the bye, when we hope to 5-4 and leading the division.
3) better production from Brady (the OL is part of the issue, but not all of it)
4) more production from Gronk and Wright
5) some production from the backup WR's: Amendola, Thompkins and Dobson
6) some luck with regard to injuries

FourierSeries said:

I've never called for Belichick to be fired before tonight. But it's time for him to move on.

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Contender for worst post of the year. Still plenty of time folks. Pace yourself.

203Pat said:

So you really think stretch plays to Vereen are the way to go with Justin Houston and Tamba Hali on the edges?

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Actually, what I'd like to have seen was a lot of wham blocks by the TEs helping to seal Poe off, and running at the outside shoulders of the DEs, which would have led to great play action opportunities against a terrible secondary. That option went by the wayside when the inactives list came out, though. It's clear that Belichick was outcoached this week, on both sides of the ball.

But that's on Belichick, not his coordinators. Andy Reid beat the hell out of Bill Belichick in the coaching ring this week. I'm not sure we've seen BB get his ass kicked more thoroughly than this at any time during his tenure here.

Deus Irae said:

Actually, what I'd like to have seen was a lot of wham blocks by the TEs helping to seal Poe off, and running at the outside shoulders of the DEs, which would have led to great play action opportunities against a terrible secondary. That option went by the wayside when the inactives list came out, though. It's clear that Belichick was outcoached this week, on both sides of the ball.

But that's on Belichick, not his coordinators. Andy Reid beat the hell out of Bill Belichick in the coaching ring this week.

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It's alarming that we couldn't exploit one of the worst (if not the worst) secondary in the league. Their starting corners are horrible and their Pro Bowl saftey didn't play.

varjao said:

What concerned me at the time of the pick was the fact that he's undersized, more than the ACL's that is also a big deal.

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Coming off an injury I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but if he's as easy to block next year as he is right now, he could enter Jamie Collins worthlessness territory.

203Pat said:

It's alarming that we couldn't exploit one of the worst (if not the worst) secondary in the league. Their starting corners are horrible and their Pro Bowl saftey didn't play.

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Personnel choices mattered there. Amendola instead of KT and Dobson was a bad idea with that group. FTR, I"m not saying that Amendola should have been benched (different question), but I'm saying that at least one of the KT/Dobson duo should have been active ahead of Amendola against that particular team.

Deus Irae said:

Actually, what I'd like to have seen was a lot of wham blocks by the TEs helping to seal Poe off, and running at the outside shoulders of the DEs, which would have led to great play action opportunities against a terrible secondary. That option went by the wayside when the inactives list came out, though. It's clear that Belichick was outcoached this week, on both sides of the ball.

But that's on Belichick, not his coordinators. Andy Reid beat the hell out of Bill Belichick in the coaching ring this week. I'm not sure we've seen BB get his ass kicked more thoroughly than this at any time during his tenure here.

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I agree, other than the statement regarding the inactives. Better blocking, including wham blocks could have freed up Edelman, Gronk, and LaFell (with Amendola in the slot). I don't believe that the problem was having 2 receivers that Brady doesn't trust inactive.

203Pat said:

It's alarming that we couldn't exploit one of the worst (if not the worst) secondary in the league. Their starting corners are horrible and their Pro Bowl saftey didn't play.

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We couldn't exploit any of the subpar teams we've played to this point, so no shocker there. The Patriots are no longer a team that can exploit others. They are a team that gets exploited for the lack of athletic talent they possess.

But hey, we're $14 million under the cap though. So that's nice.