Major overhaul on the o-line according to SMY (merged)

QB12 · Sep 29, 2014

Brady6 said:
All I can say is I am against removing Marcus Cannon from the starting lineup. He graded out as the #8 RT in the NFL last season, allowed just 1 sacks, 4 hits, and 12 pressures last season. If the Patriots cannot find a way to get that type of OL on the field full time in a position he can succeed, given the status of are OL currently I have to question the new OL coach.

You're his agent right?

mgteich · Sep 29, 2014

mayoclinic said:
You may both be right - it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, and it certainly won't be the last. I just don't know if 3 games is adequate to make a dispositive evaluation. The Pats saw enough to start him at LG. It's hard to criticize Cannon's slow reaction times at a new position if he isn't given enough time at the position to allow his reaction times to improve. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you are right, but I personally wouldn't close the door on the Cannon at guard experiment at this point.

The experiment of Cannon at OG is NOT three games old, it is three years old. This board, and the team, has considered Cannon a "potential" RG since he arrived. He has gotten lots and lots and lots of practice at RG. He has much game experience at RG. In many games, he has been our backup RG. In this last preseason, he had some play at RG.

So, for me, Cannon at OG is not a new idea at all. HOWEVER, playing Cannon at a position at which he MIGHT have practiced at in college is strange indeed. The LEFT side is very different than the RIGHT. I certainly agree that many LGs were formerly LT's, and the many RGs were formerly RT's. But Cannon was a RT with no experience at LG.

This is Cannon's 4th year. For 2 1/2 years he has been a backup, being looked at to play wherever he can fit in. The new coach decided that he would do something different. He decided to start cannon at LG with no preseason experience whatsoever. I don't understand the decision. Perhaps, he valued Cannon as many here do (or did) as the next best lineman after Solder and Vollmer. So, of course, Cannon would start at LG. ????? As I say, I don't get it.

BOTTOM LINE
Cannon has been tried at RG for some time, and has not convinced the team that he is a starting RG. The team had an opening at LG, so Cannon was tried there.

Perhaps, there were just to many question marks at C and RG to move Connolly to LG before tonight. After all, Connolly, Stork and Wendell all had injury issues.

And yes, to me, it was perverse not to see Kline at LG in the first three games. After all, he started there for parts of last year. IMHO, there was no reason to panic and start Cannon, when Kline was available.

Zeus · Sep 29, 2014

Froob said:
... and LaFell won't be flagged for interference.

You might have gotten greedy with that one, but if LaFell were to get traded to Denver, you'd have a fighting chance.

mgteich · Sep 29, 2014

QB12 said:
You're his agent right?

agent or relative!

Must be.

After all, who else but an agent could call a backup the 8th best RT in the league (or graded out as such)?

Who else but an agent could question the OL coach for not starting his favorite backup for a FOURTH straight game to start the season. Some agents might even have been happy if their player got any chance to start in his contract year, after being a backup for 2 1/2 years.

Brady6 · Sep 29, 2014

mgteich said:
The experiment of Cannon at OG is NOT three games old, it is three years old. This board, and the team, has considered Cannon a "potential" RG since he arrived. He has gotten lots and lots and lots of practice at RG. He has much game experience at RG. In many games, he has been our backup RG. In this last preseason, he had some play at RG.

So, for me, Cannon at OG is not a new idea at all. HOWEVER, playing Cannon at a position at which he MIGHT have practiced at in college is strange indeed. The LEFT side is very different than the RIGHT. I certainly agree that many LGs were formerly LT's, and the many RGs were formerly RT's. But Cannon was a RT with no experience at LG.

This is Cannon's 4th year. For 3 1/2 years he has been a backup, being looked at to play wherever he can fit in. The new coach decided that he would do something different. He decided to start cannon at LG with no preseason experience whatsoever. I don't understand the decision. Perhaps, he valued Cannon as many here do (or did) as the next best lineman after Solder and Vollmer. So, of course, Cannon would start at LG. ????? As I say, I don't get it.

BOTTOM LINE
Cannon has been tried at RG for some time, and has not convinced the team that he is a starting RG. The team had an opening at LG, so Cannon was tried there.

Perhaps, there were just to many question marks at C and RG to move Connolly to LG before tonight. After all, Connolly, Stork and Wendell all had injury issues.

And yes, to me, it was perverse not to see Kline at LG in the first three games. After all, he started there for parts of last year. IMHO, there was no reason to panic and start Cannon, when Kline was available.

Cannon started at LT in his senior season at TCU.

The real bottom line is that if they intended to start Marcus Cannon at LG he should have played all 4 preseason games at the position, we should not be figuring this out in week 4 of the regular season. I hold the OL coach accountable for this, his personnel use has been very questionable throughout camp, the preseason, and now the regular season.

luuked · Sep 29, 2014

Brady6 said:
Cannon started at LT in his senior season at TCU.

The real bottom line is that if they intended to start Marcus Cannon at LG he should have played all 4 preseason games at the position, we should not be figuring this out in week 4 of the regular season. I hold the OL coach accountable for this, his personnel use has been very questionable throughout camp, the preseason, and now the regular season.

I have a feeling that the coaching staff had somebody else in mind for the LG spot. But he was traded away after most of the pre-season, which left them a bit scrambling. The way we have been experimenting with different configurations now instead of the preseason is very telling. Nobody realistically expected that Mankins won't be here.

Brady6 · Sep 29, 2014

QB12 said:
You're his agent right?

No I am someone who thinks that a player who has proven capable of performing at the NFL level in a starting job deserves more than 3 weeks to learn a position he has never taken a snap at in his 3 previous NFL seasons.

Pull the player who was a top 10 RT last season starting for Vollmer out of the lineup and replace him with the RG that graded out as the #31 RG in the NFL last season and allowed an NFL high 33 QB disruptions at OG. You dislike my post, wow that is funny, mainly that you do not know the difference between dislike and disagree, what exactly did you dislike about my post QB12?

Brady6 · Sep 29, 2014

luuked said:
I have a feeling that the coaching staff had somebody else in mind for the LG spot. But he was traded away after most of the pre-season, which left them a bit scrambling. The way we have been experimenting with different configurations now instead of the preseason is very telling. Nobody realistically expected that Mankins won't be here.

Then the trade should not have been made, you do not trade a player unless you have someone capable of replacing him, that is coaching and personnel management 101.

mgteich · Sep 29, 2014

1) CANNON

TCU was a long time ago.

I would go further. If Cannon were to be considered as a potential LG, he should have lots of practice over the past couple of years, in addition to this off-season and preseason.

When Cannon came, I considered him a potential backup at both LG and LT. I don't think the team saw it that way. I think it instructive that rather than start Cannon at LT (or even RT and move Vollmer) last year, Mankins was moved to tackle, and KLINE (rather than Cannon) became a starter.

2) RIGHT GUARD

With regard to being consistent with the offseason, I think the coach was quite consistent with regard to Devey. Devey played almost every offensive rep. We shouldn't have been surprised at his starting in the first game. Of course, many here thought that Cannon would start at RG instead.

Brady6 said:
Cannon started at LT in his senior season at TCU.

The real bottom line is that if they intended to start Marcus Cannon at LG he should have played all 4 preseason games at the position, we should not be figuring this out in week 4 of the regular season. I hold the OL accountable for this, his personnel use has been very questionable throughout camp, the preseason, and now the regular season.

Brady6 · Sep 29, 2014

mgteich said:
agent or relative!

Must be.

After all, who else but an agent could call a backup the 8th best RT in the league (or graded out as such)?

Who else but an agent could question the OL coach for not starting his favorite backup for a FOURTH straight game to start the season. Some agents might even have been happy if their player got any chance to start in his contract year, after being a backup for 2 1/2 years.

He started 8 games last season, Vollmer missed the entire second half, he qualified, seriously some of the stuff you say makes no sense, he was not a backup last season once Vollmer went down.

Did you watch the Patriots during the 2013 season or just post on the forum about them?

Brady6 · Sep 29, 2014

mgteich said:
Devey played almost every offensive rep.

That was mistake #2...

luuked · Sep 29, 2014

Brady6 said:
Then the trade should not have been made, you do not trade a player unless you have someone capable of replacing him, that is coaching and personnel management 101.

I agree, and I don't want to open up the Can of Mankins once again.

I am just saying that this is most probably the reason we didn't experiment more during camp/pre-season. I guess the staff thought they can get through the early portion of the season relatively unscathed and have a stable OL until we get to crunch time. Maybe they expected too much and it will cost us the season, maybe we are right on track. We will know in 3-4 weeks.

mgteich · Sep 29, 2014

Brady6 said:
Then the trade should not have been made, you do not trade a player unless you have someone capable of replacing him, that is coaching and personnel management 101.

Now, with respect, this type of post is why I accuse you of being a new fan.

1) Management 101 is NOT Belichick 101.

2) Belichick has often traded or waived someone with little apparent thought of who would replace him. Belichick strongly believes that the team always has a next man up who is ready to step up and play.

Personally, I think that the trade had a lot to do with Wright, who Belichick apparently wanted. Obviously, Belichick also thought that Mankins wasn't worth $7M of cap money, and more in 2015. BTW, many here thought this early in the preseason, but thought that Belichick would wait a year to make a move. As I said, Belichick 101 is often to make such moves a year earlier than we posters would.

QB12 · Sep 29, 2014

Brady6 said:
No I am someone who thinks that a player who has proven capable of performing at the NFL level in a starting job deserves more than 3 weeks to learn a position he has never taken a snap at in his 3 previous NFL seasons.

Pull the player who was a top 10 RT last season starting for Vollmer out of the lineup and replace him with the RG that graded out as the #31 RG in the NFL last season and allowed an NFL high 33 QB disruptions at OG. You dislike my post, wow that is funny, mainly that you do not know the difference between dislike and disagree, what exactly did you dislike about my post QB12?

Ever heard the saying, 'baffle them with bull....it?'

mgteich · Sep 29, 2014

Brady6 said:
That was mistake #2...

I would say that the mistake was not is playing Devey so much in the preseason. It was in concluding, based on those reps, that Devey is a an NFL quality starter.

Brady6 · Sep 29, 2014

QB12 said:
Ever heard the saying, 'baffle them with bull....it?'

No

Brady6 · Sep 29, 2014

mgteich said:
I would say that the mistake was not is playing Devey so much in the preseason. It was in concluding, based on those reps, that Devey is a an NFL quality starter.

I would have rather they gave the opportunity to Kline who at least showed last season he was capable of starting and performing. At the end of the day, we have to look at the OL coach and wonder what is going on because with injuries other issues over the years we have put some OL with JAGs on the field and had them perform when Scar was here.

Back in 2012 when Mankins and Connolly missed significant time, Wendell and Solder were starting for the first time, etc. We made it work; now we cannot make it work with all of our OL healthy. It just seems like a coaching and scheme problem to me.

QB12 · Sep 29, 2014

QB12 said:
Ever heard the saying, 'baffle them with bull....it?'

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull....it" W.C. Fields

Brady6 · Sep 29, 2014

mgteich said:
Now, with respect, this type of post is why I accuse you of being a new fan.

1) Management 101 is NOT Belichick 101.

2) Belichick has often traded or waived someone with little apparent thought of who would replace him. Belichick strongly believes that the team always has a next man up who is ready to step up and play.

Personally, I think that the trade had a lot to do with Wright, who Belichick apparently wanted. Obviously, Belichick also thought that Mankins wasn't worth $7M of cap money, and more in 2015. BTW, many here thought this early in the preseason, but thought that Belichick would wait a year to make a move. As I said, Belichick 101 is often to make such moves a year earlier than we posters would.

I am not a new fan I just do not always agree with Belichick 101, especially in terms of personnel decisions. The Belichick 101 decision does not appear to be working out, I would consider the new fan the fan who agreed with a bad decision just because Belichick made it, but to each their own.

They could have trade for Wright without giving up Mankins, Wright was not longed for Tampa Bay either way.

Brady6 · Sep 29, 2014

QB12 said:
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull....it" W.C. Fields

I did not say anything that was BS, everything thing I wrote was 100% accurate. Connolly and Wendell were poor last season, moving Connolly who struggled at RG for most of the last 2 seasons to LG is not going to help the OL, and is not likely to be an improvement over a green Marcus Cannon at LG.

Major overhaul on the o-line according to SMY (merged)

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