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We both know that if Wallace were on the Patriots you would be hyping him as the best WR in the NFL.



LaFell and Amendola were both let go by the team that drafted them. Does that make them bad receivers in your opinion?



I think we could have landed Collins and Ryan in the second and third rounds either way so we traded Patterson for Dobson, Harmon, Boyce, and the pick that we sent to Tampa for Blount. If I told you, we could have drafted Patterson, Collins, and Ryan would you still have made that trade.



You consistently overlook that the most essential position in the NFL to the success of a team is the QB, that 9/10 times the Super Bowl has at least 1 of the top 5 QBs playing in it. These WR make a huge difference and we would be a better team with anyone of them and you know it, you are disparaging them only because they are not on our team, and that is just dumb. In addition, Fitzgerald has won an NFC Championship, he has played in 6 playoff games on his own, Jackson played in 7 playoff games during his tenure in San Diego, and Johnson has played in 1 playoff game, that is 14, which is a long way from 1.



Have you not seen the difference that Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski have made to this offense over the years? How can you say something so ridiculous having witnessed that first hand as a Patriots fan. You are so caught up and attempting to make everything, the Patriots do sound like the most brilliant move that you spit some complete nonsense. If you read it posted by someone else you would be scratching your head, and we both know that if we had a top 5 WR on the Patriots you would be talking about how Belichick saw the importance of the WR and invested heavily into it.



Strawman. BB wouldn't touch Wallace with a 10 foot pole, both because of his astronomical price, and because of his limited playing style. If all you can do is run down the field fast and then wander around, you aren't gonna get very far with Bill.

Mike Wallace is NOT Randy Moss. They shouldn't be in the same sentence together.
 
Wallace sucks and would have done absolutely nothing in the Pats system.

You mean the Wallace that toasted the Patriots in week 1? Is that the Wallace that sucks????? You mean the Wallace that Revis could not cover and demanded double coverage? Naw why would the Patriots want a guy that stretched the field and took up two defensive backs? Naw, the Patriots are much better off with Brandon Tate....

Saying Wallace sucks is as stupid as Felger complaining that Randy Moss sucked....
 
Strawman. BB wouldn't touch Wallace with a 10 foot pole, both because of his astronomical price, and because of his limited playing style. If all you can do is run down the field fast and then wander around, you aren't gonna get very far with Bill.

Mike Wallace is NOT Randy Moss. They shouldn't be in the same sentence together.

Would you rather have Brandon Freaking Tate?

Wallace stretches the fields and eats up a CB plus a safety....unlike any of the Patriot's current crop of plodding WRs (except for Edleman).
 
You mean the Wallace that toasted the Patriots in week 1? Is that the Wallace that sucks????? You mean the Wallace that Revis could not cover and demanded double coverage? Naw why would the Patriots want a guy that stretched the field and took up two defensive backs? Naw, the Patriots are much better off with Brandon Tate....

Saying Wallace sucks is as stupid as Felger complaining that Randy Moss sucked....

I'd like to have Brandon Tate now. He is on the leader board for KO returners, alongside Hester.
 
If you draft wisely, you do not have to shell out the Big Bucks. Time to roll out the BB Draft List of Shame again, sigh:

2013: Josh Boyce 4'th
2010: Taylor Price 3'd (instead of Mike Williams, ouch, Rielly Cooper, Antonio Brown, etc.)
2009: Brandon Tate 3'd (instead of Wallace, ouch)
2006: Chad Jackon 2'd (trade up, ouch, instead of Greg Jennings, double ouch, what the hell was BB thinking?)
2004: P.K. Sam
2003 Bethel Johnson 2'd (instead of Anquan Boldin, ouch)

If

That being said, 2002 was an excellent year with Branch and Givens (the most under-appreciated WR in Patriots history).

This is a pretty good example of the difference between information and knowledge.

What you point out is a fact, it is true. But without context, meaning, and understanding, it means nothing. You're basically the kid from Jerry Maguire repeating over and over that the human head weighs 8 pounds no matter what anyone else is talking about.

Yes, we missed on Brandon Tate, and Pittsburgh drafted Mike Wallace, but what does that mean exactly? When over 70% of picks don't meet their round's average, it's no surprise that a team missed on a WR pick. That's actually the highest expected thing to happen. When the obvious thing happens, I'm not sure why you're shocked.

And Pittsburgh hit on the pick, so...what exactly? What are you saying? They did better than us? Or did they do worse because they spent a 1st on Ziggy Hood and a 3rd on Kraig Urbik before drafting Wallace? Pittsburgh could have drafted Jairus Byrd or LeSean McCoy too but didn't.

And if they really knew what Wallace would become, do you think they would have traded out of the 2nd round and taken Urbik earlier, then let two teams draft WRs ahead of them and potentially take him? The Lions would draft Derrick Williams two spots ahead as well, which started a run at the position (6 WRs in 9 picks). Pittsburgh easily could have missed this pick.

Josh Boyce hasn't worked out in the 4th. Just like 70% of picks in that round. He was the 13th WR taken that year, and the expected average is between Bethel Johnson and Brandon Tate. So what exactly were you expecting here?

Missing on 9 of 12 picks could be amazing. It could be terrible. You don't know because you can't comprehend information, you can't piece it together. You can repeat little tidbits of information over and over, you just don't know what they all add up to.

Pick any GM in the league and I can point out lots of mistakes. Why? Because nobody is perfect, and pointing out only one person's mistakes while ignoring everyone else's gives you a really terrible understanding of the way things work.

The world champion Seattle Seahawks once put together a ridiculous trade package for Charlie Whitehurst. The Colts, one of the best teams in terms of drafting WRs, also wasted a 1st on Anthony Gonzalez.

And again, it's about the wins. The Jets have done a better job of drafting WRs than the Patriots. So ****ing what? Do you wish we hired the Jets GMs over BB since they've done better at drafting WRs?

If you draft wisely, you don't have to shell out big bucks. On that, we agree, although I still don't think it means what you think it means. While it's always good to hit on a draft pick, you don't need to spend a ton of draft capital to win a championship. In fact, In fact, most recent championship teams have won without being led by a 1st-round WR. Sometimes, their leading receiver doesn't even have a great season.

The Seahawks leading receiver in 2013 was a 2nd rounder, Golden Tate, who didn't even finish in the top 30 in receiving yards.

The Ravens leading receiver in 2013 was former 2nd rounder Anquan Boldin who was acquired for some mid-round draft picks and finished 27th in receiving yards.

The 2011 Giants did have a top receiving threat in terms of production in Victor Cruz, who would finish 3rd in the league in receiving yards. He was also an UDFA.

The 2010 Packers were led by former 2nd-round pick Greg Jennings who finished 4th in receiving yards.

The 2009 Saints were led by 7th-rounder Marques Colston. The 2008 Steelers were led by 3rd-rounder Hines Ward.

The 2007 Giants were led by a former 1st-rounder Plaxico Burress, who did have a 1,000-yard season. That was good for 21st in the league, so maybe you could argue that a top draft pick WR led his team to a championship. So long as you overlook the fact they beat another former 1st-rounder, Randy Moss, who set a TD record and finished 2nd in receiving yards for a record-setting offensive team. And I don't want to talk about this game anymore.

Finally, 2006, you have a 1st-round WR in Marvin Harrison who was extremely productive (2nd in receiving yards) winning a championship with the Colts.

So it is possible. It just isn't necessary. And you certainly can't assume hitting on a 1st round WR is going to mean anything in terms of winning a championship.

Or maybe it's the most important thing in the world. So you can take the Colts seasons of great WR drafts and only 1 championship over BB's run. Go for it. Take the Jets and Cardinals over the past 14 years too. They were 2 of the top 3 teams in terms of WR drafting success. I'll take our 3 Super Bowl trophies and 5 AFC Championships over all of them any day.
 
First off I would appreciate it if you ask me to clarify how I value certain spots instead of assuming cause that would cause confusion about what I mean.

So to be more clear on what i mean. I am not saying DT = OGs cause i don't believe they do. Generally OG are some of the least valuable spots in the NFL. However I would also say the likelihood drops of getting a solid starting player when you don't pick one in the top 3 rounds.

I am not saying take a guard with a top 10 pick cause I don't believe guards win super bowls but i do believe bad starters can lose you super bowls.

My thoughts on position value are this.

Tackles - Highly valued. I would go as high as a top 3 pick for a very good level tackle but would prefer to not have a starting tackle that is below bottom 2nd round talent that also plays up to that talent.

Center - Medium/low valued. It is one of the less valuable positions but more so than a few others. I would go as high as late first round (after 25) for a very good center but would prefer not to have a starting center that is below a mid 3rd round talent.

Guard - Low valued - Guards in today's game not that important and not worth investing a lot of money or high draft capital in. I would draft an very good guard in the high 2nd round but would prefer not to have a starting guard below bottom 3rd round talent that can also play up to that talent.

Here is my general break down of positions if you wanna know.

QB >>> OT = DE = CB > DT > LB = S = WR = TE > C > G > RB (and i won't do STs)

At least superficially, it seems as if you're saying that a team screws up unless every starter is at least a successful Rounds 1-3 pick. Unfortunately, that view is not compatible with the simple arithmetic of pick count, pick success rates, and duration of NFL careers (especially the cost-effective parts). So grabbing bargains has to be part of the mix.
 
You mean the Wallace that toasted the Patriots in week 1?

He'd have been a fine addition (assuming that he could actually understand our playbook and perform in our system, which is highly questionable) at the price of 8-9m dollars, but obviously that's a far cry from what some of the pathetic teams such as Minnesota and Miami were going to offer him at 12-13m dollars.

That said, you aren't taking some of his attitude concerns or tendency to drop balls into account either. It wasn't but this spring where Miami was strongly rumored to be regretting their decision to give Wallace that kind of money, as they were trying to trade him with no takers for what they were asking.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/sto...hins-contract-deal-free-agent-salary-cap-move

Wallace is a fine candidate to catch 65-70 balls every year, but I don't believe that he's anywhere close to the contract that he signed.
 
Strawman. BB wouldn't touch Wallace with a 10 foot pole, both because of his astronomical price, and because of his limited playing style. If all you can do is run down the field fast and then wander around, you aren't gonna get very far with Bill.

I do not think you have a clue what Belichick would and would not touch, and any assertion otherwise is assumptive. The Patriots signed a slot WR for $28.5M who is also a one-dimensional receiver, so you are making a very weak argument here. For what it is worth, I am not even a big fan of Wallace I just said that if he were on the Patriots AZ would be publicizing him as the best WR in the NFL because he would be and the only reason he bashed Wallace is that he is not a Patriots, which is foolish.

As far as straw man goes, you should look up the meaning of that because your use of it is not appropriate.


Mike Wallace is NOT Randy Moss. They shouldn't be in the same sentence together.
Where did I put Mike Wallace in the same sentence as Randy Moss? :confused:

 
I'd like to have Brandon Tate now. He is on the leader board for KO returners, alongside Hester.
He has returned 2 kicks this season for 47 yards? He has not returned a kick for a touchdown in 5 years, what leader board are you looking at?
 
Has Logan Ryan played better or worse this season than he did as a rookie?

Firstly I never viewed him as a full 16 game starter. He is used as a situational player who gets occasional starts as needed. I'd call him a great depth player. To say he regressed I would not agree with. Did you watch him cover Patterson vs Minnesota?
 
you could pretty much do the same thing with the Pats drafting r.e. defensive backs - DB's are probably more of an indictment on Belichick the GM. Felger brought up a pretty sobering, disappointing item yesterday - against Oakland the Patriots starting offensive lineup had ONE first round draft pick (Solder, and he was f#cking terrible). Is that how you surround one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL?

What's hilarious about this is that Denver has chosen to protect Manning with only ONE first round draft pick as well. The lesson from this is don't listen to Felger...he is just trying to stir up controversy.
 
Firstly I never viewed him as a full 16 game starter. He is used as a situational player who gets occasional starts as needed. I'd call him a great depth player. To say he regressed I would not agree with. Did you watch him cover Patterson vs Minnesota?
My post that you questioned said the player has either regressed or not progressed at all, so my question is not what you think of Ryan my question is do you consider him to be better, worse, or the same as he was in his rookie season?
 
What's hilarious about this is that Denver has chosen to protect Manning with only ONE first round draft pick as well. The lesson from this is don't listen to Felger...he is just trying to stir up controversy.

Denver Broncos
LT - Ryan Clady #12 pick in 2008
LG - Orlando Franklin #46 pick in 2011
OC - Manny Ramirez #117 pick in 2007
RG - Louis Vasquez #78 pick in 2009
RT – Chris Clark UDFA in 2008

New England Patriots
LT - Nate Solder #17 pick in 2011
LG - Marcus Cannon #138 pick in 2011
OC - Dan Connolly UDFA in 2005
RG - Jordan Devey UDFA in 2013
RT - Sebastian Vollmer #58 pick in 2009
 
This is a pretty good example of the difference between information and knowledge.

What you point out is a fact, it is true. But without context, meaning, and understanding, it means nothing. You're basically the kid from Jerry Maguire repeating over and over that the human head weighs 8 pounds no matter what anyone else is talking about.

Yes, we missed on Brandon Tate, and Pittsburgh drafted Mike Wallace, but what does that mean exactly? When over 70% of picks don't meet their round's average, it's no surprise that a team missed on a WR pick. That's actually the highest expected thing to happen. When the obvious thing happens, I'm not sure why you're shocked.

And Pittsburgh hit on the pick, so...what exactly? What are you saying? They did better than us? Or did they do worse because they spent a 1st on Ziggy Hood and a 3rd on Kraig Urbik before drafting Wallace? Pittsburgh could have drafted Jairus Byrd or LeSean McCoy too but didn't.

And if they really knew what Wallace would become, do you think they would have traded out of the 2nd round and taken Urbik earlier, then let two teams draft WRs ahead of them and potentially take him? The Lions would draft Derrick Williams two spots ahead as well, which started a run at the position (6 WRs in 9 picks). Pittsburgh easily could have missed this pick.

Josh Boyce hasn't worked out in the 4th. Just like 70% of picks in that round. He was the 13th WR taken that year, and the expected average is between Bethel Johnson and Brandon Tate. So what exactly were you expecting here?

Missing on 9 of 12 picks could be amazing. It could be terrible. You don't know because you can't comprehend information, you can't piece it together. You can repeat little tidbits of information over and over, you just don't know what they all add up to.

Pick any GM in the league and I can point out lots of mistakes. Why? Because nobody is perfect, and pointing out only one person's mistakes while ignoring everyone else's gives you a really terrible understanding of the way things work.

The world champion Seattle Seahawks once put together a ridiculous trade package for Charlie Whitehurst. The Colts, one of the best teams in terms of drafting WRs, also wasted a 1st on Anthony Gonzalez.

And again, it's about the wins. The Jets have done a better job of drafting WRs than the Patriots. So ****ing what? Do you wish we hired the Jets GMs over BB since they've done better at drafting WRs?

If you draft wisely, you don't have to shell out big bucks. On that, we agree, although I still don't think it means what you think it means. While it's always good to hit on a draft pick, you don't need to spend a ton of draft capital to win a championship. In fact, In fact, most recent championship teams have won without being led by a 1st-round WR. Sometimes, their leading receiver doesn't even have a great season.

The Seahawks leading receiver in 2013 was a 2nd rounder, Golden Tate, who didn't even finish in the top 30 in receiving yards.

The Ravens leading receiver in 2013 was former 2nd rounder Anquan Boldin who was acquired for some mid-round draft picks and finished 27th in receiving yards.

The 2011 Giants did have a top receiving threat in terms of production in Victor Cruz, who would finish 3rd in the league in receiving yards. He was also an UDFA.

The 2010 Packers were led by former 2nd-round pick Greg Jennings who finished 4th in receiving yards.

The 2009 Saints were led by 7th-rounder Marques Colston. The 2008 Steelers were led by 3rd-rounder Hines Ward.

The 2007 Giants were led by a former 1st-rounder Plaxico Burress, who did have a 1,000-yard season. That was good for 21st in the league, so maybe you could argue that a top draft pick WR led his team to a championship. So long as you overlook the fact they beat another former 1st-rounder, Randy Moss, who set a TD record and finished 2nd in receiving yards for a record-setting offensive team. And I don't want to talk about this game anymore.

Finally, 2006, you have a 1st-round WR in Marvin Harrison who was extremely productive (2nd in receiving yards) winning a championship with the Colts.

So it is possible. It just isn't necessary. And you certainly can't assume hitting on a 1st round WR is going to mean anything in terms of winning a championship.

Or maybe it's the most important thing in the world. So you can take the Colts seasons of great WR drafts and only 1 championship over BB's run. Go for it. Take the Jets and Cardinals over the past 14 years too. They were 2 of the top 3 teams in terms of WR drafting success. I'll take our 3 Super Bowl trophies and 5 AFC Championships over all of them any day.
So you do not hold Bill Belichick to a higher standard than the 31 other Head Coaches and General Managers in the NFL? You want to label him the best HC in the NFL or the GOAT HC but you judge him on the same standards that you judge the Rex Ryan’s and Marvin Lewis’s of the NFL.

Just as I expect Brady to perform better then Tony Romo, I expect Belichick to perform better than his peers. Highlighting others failures is fluff in a weak attempt to justify mistakes. Belichick has been in the draft room as long as anyone in the NFL he has significant experience, so yes I expect him to do a superior job to others teams HC and GM.



 
My post that you questioned said the player has either regressed or not progressed at all, so my question is not what you think of Ryan my question is do you consider him to be better, worse, or the same as he was in his rookie season?
1) I do believe that Ryan is a better corner than last year. This year he is a reliable starter when needed.

2) I don't think that it is reasonable to judge players by where they are on the depth chart. For example if Dennard were healthy, I would not expect Ryan to start. That is because Dennard was a reliable starter last year and should continue to improve.

BOTTOM LINE
We have a top free agent starter and a returning starter. We have a top nickel back. Absent injuries, I would not have expected Ryan to get many reps. One can argue about how good Browner is. In any case, he is a major acquisition (up to $5M a year). So, if Ryan isn't a starter for the last half of the year, with everyone healthy, I would NOT consider Ryan a failure, or a player who has regressed.

In the end, Belichick drafted Dennard and Ryan. Dennard is a solid starter, and Ryan is a backup capable of starting. IMHO, that is very good work indeed.
 
1) I do believe that Ryan is a better corner than last year. This year he is a reliable starter when needed.
He was reliable starter last season when needed, and he had a lower completion percentage against, QB rating against, and yards per catch allowed last season. He started 3 games during the regular season.

2) I don't think that it is reasonable to judge players by where they are on the depth chart. For example if Dennard were healthy, I would not expect Ryan to start. That is because Dennard was a reliable starter last year and should continue to improve.
I base it on performance, and Ryan has not played better this season, everything from stats to his role prior to the injuries and in the preseason indicates that opposite in fact.

In the end, Belichick drafted Dennard and Ryan. Dennard is a solid starter, and Ryan is a backup capable of starting. IMHO, that is very good work indeed.
I do not dispute this but it does not change the fact that Ryan has not shown any progress in terms of a year 2 leap. We both know the year 2 leap is considered the most significant in a player’s career, so the lack of one is indicative of questionable player development, specifically with our WR and DB.




 
Why do people keep mentioning Patterson? He couldn't run a route if his life depended on it and he's as dumb as rocks so wouldn't have even got past the first page of the Pats playbook.

the playbook is another thread altogether...it is so complex that nobody can understand it. How good of a playbook is it if only 5 WRs in the league can understand it. The coaching staff needs to be less stubborn and do a better job of adapting to the league IMO
 
1pm Games
Packers @ Bears
Bills @ Texans
Titans @ Colts
Panthers @ Ravens
Lions @ Jets
Bucs @ Steelers
Dolphins @ Raiders

4pm Games
Jaguars @ Chargers
Eagles @ 49ers
Falcons @ Vikings

Primetime
Saints @ Cowboys
 
Adding the 506 to this thread...

http://506sports.com


I'll focus on the Jets for entertainment & also flip over to the Bills game
 


TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf’s Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/18/24
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/18: News and Notes
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/17: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/16: News and Notes
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/15: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-14, Mock Draft 3.0, Gilmore, Law Rally For Bill 
Potential Patriot: Boston Globe’s Price Talks to Georgia WR McConkey
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/12: News and Notes
Not a First Round Pick? Hoge Doubles Down on Maye
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/11: News and Notes
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