Bad Drafting=Mediocre Results

Well stated. This is basically an average NFL team with a great QB and HC. I could easily see a Miami winning the division if they had BB as HC and Brady as QB. It has been a slow deterioration.

ATippett56 said:

If there is one criticism with the New England Patriots drafts since 2008, an overemphasis on defensive backs and a complete neglect of interior offensive lineman which results in the following:

Wendell
Connolly
Devey
Kline

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True, but the line has not been a weakness until this year. The secondary has been a significant problem in need of improvement since 2008. This is the first year that the secondary is a real strength. To me, the issue has been picking late in every round so that the best available DBs - the so-called "sure things" - are long gone. The current secondary is a nice mix draft picks and veterans FAs and trades.

The offensive line selections over the years have been okay for the most part, not stellar. This year's selections seem to be good ones except for Halapio. I expect Stork to be a solid player for years to come barring chronic injuries, and Fleming looks like a good player.

Question for the veterans around here: would any opening post ever have received as many disagrees and dislikes? It's a useful feature on this new board.

Deus Irae said:

As Manx has pointed out about himself, people here actually do point/admit to their misses.

The "hindsight" and "revisionist" arguments have their place, usually when targeted to specific people, but they are simply not accurate when applied as general statements about the entire board.

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Three comments:

1) You're right about the better posters on this board. They weigh in and don't cling to draft predictions. I completely suck at predicting the NFL draft and can't remember the Patriots ever selecting single player I thought they should select, so who am I to judge?

2) From a long-term view, I think the Patriots have done well picking as late as they do every year. I'm also from the Big "O" school of assessing drafts, where players acquired by trading draft picks count towards the draft from which the pick would have been made. In that context, the Patriots have done well by trading picks for veteran players. Belichick has fleeced a number of his colleagues over the years.

3) The opening post is premature. I don't think any draft class can be assessed with any accuracy until four years out. Players need time to develop, get a decent opportunity to replace an incumbent, mature as young men, and adjust to the speed and complexity of the NFL compared to college. Criticism of free agents and veterans acquired by trade is fully justified because you can expect immediate contributions.

BabeParilli said:

Well stated. This is basically an average NFL team with a great QB and HC. I could easily see a Miami winning the division if they had BB as HC and Brady as QB. It has been a slow deterioration.

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Welcome to the board. If a "slow deterioration" is equivalent to 2011 losing SB, 2012 losing AFCC, 2012 losing AFCC, and winning the division in all those years, I hope we continue to slowly deteriorate for the next 20 years.

mayoclinic said:

David has been better through 2 seasons than Hightower. Hightower is a better player right now for BB's hybrid defense.

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From Jeff Howe today:

During the Raiders’ first seven passing plays of Sunday’s game against the Patriots, linebacker Dont’a Hightower had six different types of assignments.

He dropped into coverage as a 3-4 outside linebacker, dropped again as a nickel linebacker, rushed the passer from a defensive tackle position in the nickel, blitzed as a 3-4 inside linebacker, covered a running back as a 3-4 inside linebacker and dropped into coverage as a 4-3 outside linebacker.

And on and on it went throughout the day. Hightower has quickly emerged as the Patriots’ most versatile defensive player in their first three games. Against the Raiders, he had a dozen different responsibilities when combining his position and assignment with a particular defensive front.

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http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/...riots/2014/09/dont_a_hightower_dominates_on_d

Lavonte David is the best WLB in the NFL, but he can't do all of that, and do it well. If Hightower continues this level of play, he will prove me wrong and end up being the better pick for the Pats.

goheels22002 said:

Question for the veterans around here: would any opening post ever have received as many disagrees and dislikes? It's a useful feature on this new board.

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I don't think it's a useful feature since it simply aggravates the atmosphere. The Practice Squad, on the other hand is a very useful feature ...

There've already been so many discussions of the Patriots' drafting and we all know how they go. Someone cherry-picks examples of bad picks. Someone else points out that no team hits on all their picks. Someone else points out that the Patriots have drafted consistently later than any other team over the last ten years. And here we go again.

Actually, there have been a VERY few attempts to look at drafting with a decent level of social-scientific objectivity (it's a difficult subject). I commend this one as the best I've seen:

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/2/25/5430150/nfl-draft-history-worst-picks

Hightower I hope keeps it up but he and David are different players. Hightower can do some things can't do like play DE and DT. David can do things Hightower cant do. He can cover any TE and RB and even WRs. You won't see HT hanging with Jamal Charles. David is a sideline to sideline Tornado who closes like a lightning bolt. HT has been covering but only in limited zones. The player I would rather have, let's wait and see. If HT gets over 10 sacks actually beating OLineman like an elite rusher rather than just schemed blitzes where the TE blocks him and if he continues to hold up in coverage then i would keep HT. If his sacks decline and he starts getting roasted in coverage when he starts playing better offenses then David is definitely the player. In today's passing league LBs that can cover deep and knife through blockers and close in a blink are the gold standard. HT I think his future is 3-4 end eventually because he is great in small areas. He can use his massive frame and freakish power to beat blocks and be close to the ball. Saban said Upshaw stayed bulked up for a power rushers game but HT was the naturally stronger guy. That's saying something!! Upshaws condo is 5 blocks from me and I see him a lot and he is a beast and looks like a DT or 3-4 end. HT must be a bull for Saban to say that he is stronger.

Badger = 100%, dead-center correct.

ATippett56 said:

Baloney!

There have been plenty on posters on draft day within the Patriots Draft Talk section of this message board that voiced their displeasure with certain draft selections on the spot. The two most recent WTF draft picks:

2011, #33 overall - Glass-IR Dowling
2012, #48 overall - Tavon Wilson

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While we've been drafting horribly and steadily in the secondary our interior of both lines have hollowed out over time. The DT's played worse than the OT's tonight against the Chiefs.

Is it even possible for the DTs to have played worse than the OTs (or RG) tonight?

The OLine has been a problem. Last year Brady had it timed and got rid of the ball before it crumbled. Even in the past, better DLines exposed the OLine. They lost the Superbowl because the OLine was exposed.

This guy Badger who started this thread got crucified for pointing out the obvious.

Let's take a look at the last 4 drafts ....


2014 - New England Patriots
1 29 Dominique Easley DT Florida
2 62 Jimmy Garoppolo QB Eastern Illinois
4 105 Bryan Stork C Florida State
4 130 James White RB Wisconsin
4 140 Cameron Fleming T Stanford
6 179 Jon Halapio G Florida
6 206 Jemea Thomas DB Georgia Tech
7 244 Jeremy Gallon WR Michigan
2013 - New England Patriots
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
2 52 Jamie Collins OLB Southern Mississippi
2 59 Aaron Dobson WR Marshall
3 83 Logan Ryan CB Rutgers
3 91 Duron Harmon SS Rutgers
4 102 Josh Boyce WR Texas Christian
7 226 Michael Buchanan DE Illinois
7 235 Steve Beauharnais ILB Rutgers
2012 - New England Patriots
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 21 Chandler Jones DE Syracuse
1 25 Dont'a Hightower LB Alabama
2 48 Tavon Wilson FS Illinois
3 90 Jake Bequette DE Arkansas
6 197 Nate Ebner DB Ohio State
7 224 Alfonzo Dennard CB Nebraska
7 235 Jeremy Ebert WR Northwestern
2011 - New England Patriots
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 17 Nate Solder T Colorado
2 33 Ras-I Dowling DB Virginia
2 56 Shane Vereen RB California
3 73 Stevan Ridley RB LSU
3 74 Ryan Mallett QB Arkansas
5 138 Marcus Cannon T Texas Christian
5 159 Lee Smith TE Marshall
6 194 Markell Carter LB Central Arkansas

Chandler Jones in the closest thing we have to an impact player out of the last 4 drafts.
Collins & Easley, & Garopalo may develop, but these are not the type of drafts that build championships.

Go back to 2009 - when we had 6 picks in the 2nd and 3rd round.
Vollmer has ben ok, but the only thing we got out of that draft was Endelman in the 7th round.

2 34 Pat Chung DB Oregon
2 40 Ron Brace DT Boston College
2 41 Darius Butler DB Connecticut
2 58 Sebastian Vollmer T Houston
3 83 Brandon Tate WR North Carolina
3 97 Tyrone McKenzie OLB South Florida

We all love the Patriots, but let's put down the Kool-aid and look at this without eyes wide shut.
Drafting Tavon Wilson in the 2nd and Duron Harmon in the 3rd are signature picks.
If any other general manager made those picks, they would be looking for a job today.

Damn you Belichick it's because your drafting hubris that the drafts didn't look this

2009
#35- Jairus Byrd
#40 Louis Vasquez
#41 Terrance Knighton
#58 Sebastian Vollmer
#83 Mike Wallace
#97 Henry Melton
#123 Alex Boone
#170 Michael Bennett
#198 Captain Munnerlyn
#207 Dannell Ellerbe
#232 Julian Edelman
#234 Arian Foster

2010

#27 Rob Gronkowski
#42 Carlos Dunlap
#53 Geno Atkins
#62 Navorro Bowman
#90 Jimmy Graham
#113 Cam Chancellor
#150 Antonio Brown
#205 Sam Shields


2011
#17 & #33 for #10
#10 JJ Watt
#56 Justin Houston
#73 Mason Foster
#74 Richard Sherman
#138 Jason Kelce
#159 Charles Clay

Pats win SB 46

2012
#21 Riley Reiff
#32 Alshon Jeffrey
#48 Lavonte David
#62 Olivier Vernon
#126 Alfred Morris
#166 Alfonzo Dennard

Back to Back
2013
#32 Jonathan Cyprien
#62 Keenan Allen
#94 Akeem Spence
#129 Kenny Stills

3-Peat

JMC00 said:

Damn you Belichick it's because your drafting hubris that the drafts didn't look this.

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As far as I know, not even the worst of the 'haters' are demanding All Pros with every pick.

Mike the Brit said:

I don't think it's a useful feature since it simply aggravates the atmosphere. The Practice Squad, on the other hand is a very useful feature ...

There've already been so many discussions of the Patriots' drafting and we all know how they go. Someone cherry-picks examples of bad picks. Someone else points out that no team hits on all their picks. Someone else points out that the Patriots have drafted consistently later than any other team over the last ten years. And here we go again.

Actually, there have been a VERY few attempts to look at drafting with a decent level of social-scientific objectivity (it's a difficult subject). I commend this one as the best I've seen:

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/2/25/5430150/nfl-draft-history-worst-picks

View attachment 7010

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That win percentage is due to Brady and nothing more. The defense has been an absolute embarrassment the last four years. We were a 4 win team without Tom from 2010 onwards.

BelichicksHoodie said:

That win percentage is due to Brady and nothing more. The defense has been an absolute embarrassment the last four years. We were a 4 win team without Tom from 2010 onwards.

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Except that you have no idea how they would have spent the money that Brady's absence frees up

Ahhhh jus' luv me some hindsight.....makes me an expert critic!

Mike the Brit said:

I don't think it's a useful feature since it simply aggravates the atmosphere. The Practice Squad, on the other hand is a very useful feature ...

There've already been so many discussions of the Patriots' drafting and we all know how they go. Someone cherry-picks examples of bad picks. Someone else points out that no team hits on all their picks. Someone else points out that the Patriots have drafted consistently later than any other team over the last ten years. And here we go again.

Actually, there have been a VERY few attempts to look at drafting with a decent level of social-scientific objectivity (it's a difficult subject). I commend this one as the best I've seen:

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/2/25/5430150/nfl-draft-history-worst-picks

View attachment 7010

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You say people cherry pick and then commend this article? It article written in 2014 that shows that the Pats are bad drafters because from a period from 2004-2008, the Pats drafted bad. Isn't that cherry picking? Why not include the 2003 draft where the Pats drafted Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Dan Koppen, and Tully Banta Cain? Why not include the 2010 draft that included McCourty, Gronk, Hernandez, Spikes, and Mesko?

This article only chose a sample size of a period where the Pats had the worst drafting stretch of the Belichick era. The 2006, 2007 (when you take away the draft picks the Pats used to get Welker and Moss), and 2008 are arguably the worst three drafts of the Belichick era. So this survey is incredibly flawed. I know they didn't write this article with the Pats in mind, but they did pick a sample size that is skewed because it was a really bad period of the Belichick era for drafting.

illegalContact said:

Except that you have no idea how they would have spent the money that Brady's absence frees up

Ahhhh jus' luv me some hindsight.....makes me an expert critic!

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Krafty certainly wouldve spent bradys $ on signing injury free top notch grade free agents to multi year contracts and drafting in the first round every year...oh wait.......cuz history tells us thats what krafty bob does

FCB02062 said:

Krafty certainly wouldve spent bradys $ on signing injury free top notch grade free agents to multi year contracts and drafting in the first round every year...oh wait.......cuz history tells us thats what krafty bob does

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Cuz.......like.......you know........and stuff

yah baby....lets draft guys who can block with their crotch!!!

Our offensive line hasnt been great or elite in years, it has been living off reputation only to be exposed in the biggest games of the year.