Idle Thoughts – a reflective edition

AzPatsFan · Sep 24, 2014

ATippett56 said:
According to Bedard, Connolly was the only semi-competent offensive lineman against the Oakland Raiders. I will trust Bedard's film review of the offensive line more so than a bunch of novices posting on a message board.

I would be totally surprised if he were not. He is a past starter. However, he is part of the problem they're trying to fix. So What?

Brady6 · Sep 24, 2014

mgteich said:
IMHO, only a new fan could suggest that this is the worst mistake ever.

So what was the biggest mistake in your opinion? You are so opposed to my suggestion that this is the biggest but you have not countered with a bigger mistake.

In addition, please tell me how it is not negligent for a head coach to put his 37 year old HOF QB behind an offensive line that allows him to be routinely abused on a weekly basis?

Brady6 · Sep 24, 2014

AzPatsFan said:
An entire nullity but probably wrong in all three suppositions.

Does Mankins make a difference or not?

Trade opportunities happen. They seldom remain for long, as teams move on.

BB drafted three possibilities for the problem. What more do you want?

Your proposed solution still has the two weak problems that BB sought to fix. You are right It doesn't help.

The problem is he prioritized drafting a QB over drafting top tier talent to protect his current HOF QB. Belichick has been trying have his cake and eat it excessively in recent years, and frankly, it has not been panning out.

I do not consider fourth round draft picks or later to be addressing the problem, most mid to late round draft picks are development, and extremely unlikely to contribute as rookies.

ATippett56 · Sep 24, 2014

AzPatsFan said:
I don't understand. What 's the matter? Your posts are usually thoughtful, and spot on. All you have contributed to the Offensive line discussions in *****ing, nullities, and non sequitors.

I have stated the facts with regard to the quarterback sacks allowed since 2009 and the noticeable upward trend last season. All you have provided is nothing more than mindless speculation.

AzPatsFan said:
The interior O line got old in 2013. The sacks soared from the 20s to an enormous 40. The weakest and oldest players needed to be replaced. The Pats are doing so, and unfortunately it will take time to do so,but it is a long season. There is time to do it, even if it takes half a season.

Ryan Wendell at the age of 28 is not old. You can question Wendell's regression but you can also question Solder's regression, as well.

AzPatsFan said:
I get it. Devey is not the next coming of Ogden Pace, and you don't like him. He earned a shot in practice, got it, and failed. Your advice to cut him improves things, exactly how? Now I think he is now a blooded reserve who can play both tackle and guard as a substitute

There is a major difference between a first round draft pick and an undrafted free agent. Relying on a bunch of undrafted free agents on the offensive line seems to have caught up to the New England Patriots coaching staff, let alone an offensive tackle playing out of position.

AzPatsFan said:
Brady was rushed to throw, and got sacked 40 times in 2013. Your stats confirm the problem. Many, but not me, blamed the rookie receivers. He didn't have as much time then to throw, than he has had this season, as surprising as it appears to be to many. Equal 7 sacks in 2013 and 2014 over 3 games, but slightly more hits in 2013 than this year.

There are no rookie wide receivers on the New England Patriots for the 2014 NFL Season.

AzPatsFan said:
Solder's problems are independent of the interior changes. His talent and history indicates he will return to his high level of play, eventually.

That's pure speculation on your part since Solder has been on downward trend now for two seasons, 2013 and 2014.

AzPatsFan said:
History also indicates a Tackle can adapt and play G. Many Gs simply don't possess the physical talent to play Tackle though. Cannon will adapt. He has great size, has proven to be a tough run blocker, and has some short area mobility, and proven pass blocking ability too.

There is no guarantee that Cannon will adapt to an offensive guard role since Cannon never played offensive guard in college nor started and finished a game at the offensive guard position until this season.

AzPatsFan · Sep 24, 2014

Brady6 said:
So what was the biggest mistake in your opinion? You are so opposed to my suggestion that this is the biggest but you have not countered with a bigger mistake.

In addition, please tell me how it is not negligent for a head coach to put his 37 year old HOF QB behind an offensive line that allows him to be routinely abused on a weekly basis?

He could have said the old vets, they won for me, I'll stick with them. That would have ensured Brady was continually beat up the entire 2014 season without recourse. Now he planned a surgery to fix it and drafted the pieces to do so.

I think his biggest mistake was sticking with his old SB vets a year too long. back in '08 and '09.

Brady's pain now, is the pain a surgery patient undergoes to get cured.

mgteich · Sep 24, 2014

Brady6 said:
So what was the biggest mistake in your opinion? You are so opposed to my suggestion that this is the biggest but you have not countered with a bigger mistake.

In addition, please tell me how it is not negligent for a head coach to put his 37 year old HOF QB behind an offensive line that allows him to be routinely abused on a weekly basis?

"routinely abused on a weekly basis" when the performance is similar to last year? I believe that you were (are?) one of those who think that Cannon was and is one of top 5 linemen. I believe that you had him starting at RG for months now. How can the decision to play Cannon at LG be the worst ever? I agree that it was a bad decision.

I won't air out all the mistakes that Belichick has made. I'm sure that he would tell you that there are many. For me, the cutting of Meriweather and James Sanders with no replacements was probably Belichick's worst mistake. There are lots of other nominees. Some might suggest the signing of Haynsworth.

Based on your postings, I can't see why you wouldn't include the signing of Amendola.

primetime · Sep 24, 2014

AzPatsFan said:
Now I think he is now a blooded reserve who can play both tackle and guard as a substitute

I don't understand this. Devey's putrid. The fact that he's played in games doesn't change this. This is the sort of backwards logic that leads to Curtis Painter having a job for the better part of a decade despite the fact no team in their right mind would ever want him under center. Better the devil we know, I guess?

mgteich · Sep 24, 2014

Solder is bad BECAUSE of Mankins' absence.

Funny that you should mention a 5th round center. That worked before when we drafted Koppen. Stork was arguably the best or very close to the best center in the draft. It is NOT unusual to be able to get a future starter at center in the 4th round.

I agree that we should have brought in a veteran. However, I still would have drafted the same players. In that case, we would likely have the veteran replacing ONE of Wendell, Kline or Devey.

primetime said:
Mankins probably makes some difference, but Solder has been the real issue.

I would have preferred a veteran brought in over three guys drafted in the fourth round or later. Not that the latter is a bad thing, but you shouldn't be expecting a 5th round rookie to come in and be your starting center.

ATippett56 · Sep 24, 2014

primetime said:
I don't understand this. Devey's putrid. The fact that he's played in games doesn't change this. This is the sort of backwards logic that leads to Curtis Painter having a job for the better part of a decade despite the fact no team in their right mind would ever want him under center. Better the devil we know, I guess?

Jordan Devey is a symptom of the current offensive line situation. Relying on undrafted free agents and low level draft picks on the offensive line have caught up to the New England Patriots coaching staff.

ATippett56 · Sep 24, 2014

mgteich said:
Solder is bad BECAUSE of Mankins' absence.

Solder regressed during the 2013 NFL Season. Solder's best season by far was 2012.

primetime · Sep 24, 2014

mgteich said:
Solder is bad BECAUSE of Mankins' absence.

Funny that you should mention a 5th round center. That worked before when we drafted Koppen. Stork was arguably the best or very close to the best center in the draft. It is NOT unusual to be able to get a future starter at center in the 4th round.

I agree that we should have brought in a veteran. However, I still would have drafted the same players. In that case, we would likely have the veteran replacing ONE of Wendell, Kline or Devey.

I don't know about Solder and Mankins. Solder's technique looks way off - pad level is real high so he's just getting pushed around and he's just getting blown by to the outside.

On the other stuff, I don't think we're in disagreement. I have no problem drafting offensive linemen, but I do have a problem expecting draftees - especially mid-tier ones - to step in right away and hold up on the offensive line. Koppen was great but you can't count on that. A veteran signing, even a mid-level one, would have gone a long way to stabilizing this line. Note that they could have brought in a veteran even with Mankins, too.

mgteich · Sep 24, 2014

Let's be clear. I have been asking for top interior linemen for many years. Belichick chose to address the issue THIS off-seeason. The THREE players that needed to be replaced over a couple of years are indeed Mankins, Connolly, and Wendell. I have argued that even in 2015, Connolly might be valuable as a backup. Belichick decided to get rid of Mankins this year, and to make Wendell a backup.

Replacing two offensive lineman is a lot for one year. Perhaps, you can get one plug and play addition. Two is a lot. Apparently, Cannon was ready to be depended on as a starter. We drafted Fleming in case Cannon goes after the season. So, even after Mankins was gone, we have FOUR returning starting quality linemen, and yes, everyone agrees that Connolly should not start in 2015.

So, the PLAN seems to be for Stork to start as soon as possible, with Wendell as the backup until that happens. This plan could be implemented as early as the next game.
===========================================

The truly weird decision was to start Cannon at LG instead of RG. To me, Connolly is one of our best 5 OL's at the moment. Hopefully, Fleming will be one of the five next year. In the meantime, Fleming is our blocking TE. So, we could be ready to play next week with Solder-Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer-Fleming.
We would have 1 or 2 additional players active. Personally, I think that the decision has been made that Kline is not ready to be a starter. If that's not the case, he certainly could be our starting LG. IMHO, Connolly would then be our RG. Connolly is CURRENTLY a better RG than Cannon.

AzPatsFan said:
Well said, MGT.

But Connolly is still a major part of the problem that BB set out to fix. Why would moving him to a new position help any? He is what he is at 33, and played poorly last season.

At least Cannon is young, could play Tackle, and might grow into a good Guard.

AzPatsFan · Sep 24, 2014

ATippett56 said:
I have stated the facts with regard to the quarterback sacks allowed since 2009 and the noticeable upward trend last season. All you have provided is nothing more than mindless speculation.

Ryan Wendell at the age of 28 is not old. You can question Wendell's regression but you can also question Solder's regression, as well.

Wendel is a tough guy but he is just too undersized. He was getting bull rushed by the Suhs and Ngatas of the league. That is no secret. Mankins and Connolly are the old timers at 32 going on 33. The weakest players were identified as Wendell and Connolly, but Mankins last couple of years weren't great either.

There is a major difference between a first round draft pick and an undrafted free agent. Relying on a bunch of undrafted free agents on the offensive line seems to have caught up to the New England Patriots coaching staff, let alone an offensive tackle playing out of position.

The Pats went to a SB and 3 AFCCGs with UDFAs at Center and G. I agree, but Dante was developing some kids, while BB was fixing the Defense. If the newerUDFAs earned a shot, they deserve to get it. BB drafted replacement tackles the last few years and settled them in. This spring he drafted interior linemen for the rebuild.

There are no rookie wide receivers on the New England Patriots for the 2014 NFL Season.

Who said there was? The sentence was about last season, when the interior O-Line's time expired, and included "2013" didn't it ?

That's pure speculation on your part since Solder has been on downward trend now for two seasons, 2013 and 2014.

There is no guarantee that Cannon will adapt to an offensive guard role since Cannon never played offensive guard in college nor started and finished a game at the offensive guard position until this season.

Drivel. Mankins was a Tackle, Light was a tackle, Devey was a tackle, as were most of our other Guards except for the Wrestler. They all became Guards, one time or another. In fact, Most NFL Guards were tackles in college and like Cannon are the better athletes so they are selected and converted in the NFL.

I still don't understand why you are being so argumentative, and pedantic

AzPatsFan · Sep 24, 2014

mgteich said:
Let's be clear. I have been asking for top interior linemen for many years. Belichick chose to address the issue THIS off-seeason. The THREE players that needed to be replaced over a couple of years are indeed Mankins, Connolly, and Wendell. I have argued that even in 2015, Connolly might be valuable as a backup. Belichick decided to get rid of Mankins this year, and to make Wendell a backup.

Replacing two offensive lineman is a lot for one year. Perhaps, you can get one plug and play addition. Two is a lot. Apparently, Cannon was ready to be depended on as a starter. We drafted Fleming in case Cannon goes after the season. So, even after Mankins was gone, we have FOUR returning starting quality linemen, and yes, everyone agrees that Connolly should not start in 2015.

So, the PLAN seems to be for Stork to start as soon as possible, with Wendell as the backup until that happens. This plan could be implemented as early as the next game.
===========================================

The truly weird decision was to start Cannon at LG instead of RG. To me, Connolly is one of our best 5 OL's at the moment. Hopefully, Fleming will be one of the five next year. In the meantime, Fleming is our blocking TE. So, we could be ready to play next week with Solder-Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer-Fleming.
We would have 1 or 2 additional players active. Personally, I think that the decision has been made that Kline is not ready to be a starter. If that's not the case, he certainly could be our starting LG. IMHO, Connolly would then be our RG. Connolly is CURRENTLY a better RG than Cannon.

How things came to pass is interesting.

After the abysmal 2013 offensive line performance last season, BB recognized he could no longer delay rebuilding the interior Offensive line. It has taken a lot of juggling to turn over and rebuild a SuperBowl roster in 4-5 years without turning in a losing season, or even missing the Playoffs for a season.

I speculate that he saw 3 problems
a) undersized Wendell,
b) aging Connolly and
c) aging Mankins.

But Mankins CAP problems precluded replacing him in 2014 and was put off in BBs planning until 2015. He drafted a replacement Big Center, and a Big RT/RG candidate with the intention of either freeing Cannon from swing tackle and promoting him to starter at RG, or making Fleming the new RG, if Cannon failed.

He also wanted some depth and a couple of Dante's projects appeared to earn a shot. He gave them all their shots in TC, and decided Devey was the best of the bunch.

Then an unexpected Take-it-or-leave it Trade opportunity appeared. The Bucs had a surplus of TEs, needed a G, and were ready to deal, but only until cut-down day. If nothing developed, they would cut one of their TEs, and NOT necessarily the move TE BB coveted to fill the Hernandez void. If they did, that TE would likely be claimed on waivers, long before the Pats claim.

Take it or leave it. What do you do? BB took it.

So BB elected to trade Mankins, completely upset his plans, but acquired the Hernandez type TE, plus a pick.

But now there were three vacancies and only three candidates unless one of the young UDFAs could win a job, or one of the replaceables could resurect himself. Depth was even more of a problem.

BB tried Devey; BB tried Wendell, until he got hurt; BB tried Connolly. But first of all, BB tried moving his safest and most experienced, senior candidate to LG. Marcus Cannon had the best pass blocking abilities of them all, more necessary at blindside LG versus RG. He has persisted as Cannon has faultered. Cannon has stayed there for 2, going on 3 games and despite the difficulties should be settling in in a few more games. But are the problems all Cannon's fault? Solder is having difficulties.

Wendell stayed hurt and Connolly went to Center as Stork was worked in part-time. Flemming got some NFL game exposure as a 6th tackle and Devey was tried at RG.

Now we are at today, facing a dilemma. What would you do?

AzPatsFan · Sep 24, 2014

mgteich said:
Solder is bad BECAUSE of Mankins' absence.

Funny that you should mention a 5th round center. That worked before when we drafted Koppen. Stork was arguably the best or very close to the best center in the draft. It is NOT unusual to be able to get a future starter at center in the 4th round.

I agree that we should have brought in a veteran. However, I still would have drafted the same players. In that case, we would likely have the veteran replacing ONE of Wendell, Kline or Devey.

LOTs are drafted high but interior OLs are drafted from 4th to UDFA.

The Pats won Superbowls or went to them with UDFA starters, like Andruzzi, Robinson-Randle Boldin, Neal, Hochstein et cetera.

Tippett pointed out that Solder had problems in 2013. That was WITH Mankins there.
So I question your thesis here, that it is all Cannon's fault.

mgteich · Sep 24, 2014

I have indicated what I would do.

1) I would move Cannon to RG. UPGRADE

2) I would start Stork. eventual UPGRADE

3) I would decide between Kline and Connolly at LG. EVEN or UPGRADE over Cannon

Solder-Kline/Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer, with Fleming as the 3rd TE and backup OT

========
4) I would consider switching the OT's (I don't think that this will happen.

5) I would see who might be available for a trade.

AzPatsFan said:
Now we are at today, facing a dilemma. What would you do?

jsull87 · Sep 24, 2014

AzPatsFan said:
How things came to pass is interesting.

After the abysmal 2013 offensive line performance last season, BB recognized he could no longer delay rebuilding the interior Offensive line. It has taken a lot of juggling to turn over and rebuild a SuperBowl roster in 4-5 years without turning in a losing season, or even missing the Playoffs for a season.

I speculate that he saw 3 problems
a) undersized Wendell,
b) aging Connolly and
c) aging Mankins.

But Mankins CAP problems precluded replacing him in 2014 and was put off in BBs planning until 2015. He drafted a replacement Big Center, and a Big RT/RG candidate with the intention of either freeing Cannon from swing tackle and promoting him to starter at RG, or making Fleming the new RG, if Cannon failed.

He also wanted some depth and a couple of Dante's projects appeared to earn a shot. He gave them all their shots in TC, and decided Devey was the best of the bunch.

Then an unexpected Take-it-or-leave it Trade opportunity appeared. The Bucs had a surplus of TEs, needed a G, and were ready to deal, but only until cut-down day. If nothing developed, they would cut one of their TEs, and NOT necessarily the move TE BB coveted to fill the Hernandez void. If they did, that TE would likely be claimed on waivers, long before the Pats claim.

Take it or leave it. What do you do? BB took it.

So BB elected to trade Mankins, completely upset his plans, but acquired the Hernandez type TE, plus a pick.

But now there were three vacancies and only three candidates unless one of the young UDFAs could win a job, or one of the replaceables could resurect himself. Depth was even more of a problem.

BB tried Devey; BB tried Wendell, until he got hurt; BB tried Connolly. But first of all, BB tried moving his safest and most experienced, senior candidate to LG. Marcus Cannon had the best pass blocking abilities of them all, more necessary at blindside LG versus RG. He has persisted as Cannon has faultered. Cannon has stayed there for 2, going on 3 games and despite the difficulties should be settling in in a few more games. But are the problems all Cannon's fault? Solder is having difficulties.

Wendell stayed hurt and Connolly went to Center as Stork was worked in part-time. Flemming got some NFL game exposure as a 6th tackle and Devey was tried at RG.

Now we are at today, facing a dilemma. What would you do?

What would i do? I would (injuries permitting) play Solder-Cannon-Stork-Connelly-Vollmer and leave it as long as i can.

I would then replace Connelly next year with Carpenter from Seattle. In TC i would basically then make a battle out of Flemming and Cannon for the LG/RG spot (which ever Carpenter isn't at).

AzPatsFan · Sep 24, 2014

mgteich said:
I have indicated what I would do.

1) I would move Cannon to RG. UPGRADE

2) I would start Stork. eventual UPGRADE

3) I would decide between Kline and Connolly at LG. EVEN or UPGRADE over Cannon

Solder-Kline/Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer, with Fleming as the 3rd TE and backup OT

========
4) I would consider switching the OT's (I don't think that this will happen.

5) I would see who might be available for a trade.

That is ar least a Plan. If Devey beat out Kline and the Coaches tried Kline at LG and didn't like it, There maybe a problem there, But its a Plan

ABBYnormal proposed an unorthodox proposal, Move Vollmer to LT, Solder to LG, and Cannon to RT. Promote Stork, Return weak Connolly to his old position RG, until Fleming is ready, Your opinion?

mgteich · Sep 24, 2014

AzPatsFan said:
That is ar least a Plan. If Devey beat out Kline and the Coaches tried Kline at LG and didn't like it, There maybe a problem there, But its a Plan

ABBYnormal proposed an unorthodox proposal, Move Vollmer to LT, Solder to LG, and Cannon to RT. Promote Stork, Return weak Connolly to his old position RG, until Fleming is ready, Your opinion?

1) I don't see Solder as a guard. However, this possibility has been discussed. It is indeed possible that Solder is a better LG than Cannon.

2) The presumption is that Fleming is a guard. I don't expect that to happen in his rookie year. Fleming has a role for the moment.

OPEN QUESTION
Is Cannon satisfying Belichick with his performance at LG? If he is progressing well enough, Belichick may simply start Stork at center and Connolly at RG. Stork-Connolly should certainly be an upgrade over Connolly-Devey.

Fencer · Sep 24, 2014

First, let's see if Solder can get his head out of his butt. He seems to be making excuses in part because of who's next to him; changing LGs might just worsen the confusion. Flipping Solder and Cannon is an amusing idea, but without Solder having significant experience at LG, a lot more could go wrong than right.

I wish I knew whether or why Kline has regressed. That aspect is weird.

I think we're stuck for the time being with the Solder-Cannon-Stork-Connolly-Vollmer plan, with Wendell hopefully getting back to full strength before Stork hits the rookie wall.

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