Idle Thoughts – a reflective edition

shmessy said:

the greatest LG in his PRIME

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John Hannah wasn't on the field on that play

A few comments on the comments

1. I read a post in another thread,. where the poster gave stats that showed that through the first 3 games, the Pats have had almost identical number of sacks and QB hits as they had last season.

2. Based on that and what we've seen of Mankins performance in Tampa thus far, I wonder if we would be seeing anything different out of the passing game if Wendell, Mankins, and Connolly made up the Pats interior OL.

I will say that if Wendell Mankins and Connolly were still there, the running game would likely be better. People have forgotten that regardless of any failures Mankins and Wendell had in pass protection, both were excellent run blockers

3. I reiterate my comment on Revis. People may want to nitpick a VERY few specific plays, but the fact is that the Pats have the #1 pass defense in the league with the biggest difference being the addition of Darelle Revis. Let me repeat that. The Pats have the NUMBER ONE pass defense in the league to date.

I mean who would have thought we'd ever see that happen in our lifetime (nfl.com), even in a small sample. BTW- I had no idea myself. I knew it was much better, but I never expected to see our team on top with just 167 yds per game allowed. This from a team that routinely gave up 300 yd games to back ups over the last 6 years.

4. Finally on a really REALLY positive note. The Pats have, relatively speaking, seem to be doing much better on the injury front thus far. Given that we started the season seemingly leading the league in players coming off ACL injuries and the like.....so far so good.

patfanken said:

A few comments on the comments

1. I read a post in another thread,. where the poster gave stats that showed that through the first 3 games, the Pats have had almost identical number of sacks and QB hits as they had last season.

2. Based on that and what we've seen of Mankins performance in Tampa thus far, I wonder if we would be seeing anything different out of the passing game if Wendell, Mankins, and Connolly made up the Pats interior OL.

I will say that if Wendell Mankins and Connolly were still there, the running game would likely be better. People have forgotten that regardless of any failures Mankins and Wendell had in pass protection, both were excellent run blockers

3. I reiterate my comment on Revis. People may want to nitpick a VERY few specific plays, but the fact is that the Pats have the #1 pass defense in the league with the biggest difference being the addition of Darelle Revis. Let me repeat that. The Pats have the NUMBER ONE pass defense in the league to date.

I mean who would have thought we'd ever see that happen in our lifetime (nfl.com), even in a small sample. BTW- I had no idea myself. I knew it was much better, but I never expected to see our team on top with just 167 yds per game allowed. This from a team that routinely gave up 300 yd games to back ups over the last 6 years.

4. Finally on a really REALLY positive note. The Pats have, relatively speaking, seem to be doing much better on the injury front thus far. Given that we started the season seemingly leading the league in players coming off ACL injuries and the like.....so far so good.

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I like the defensive ranking but any competent defense is supposed to shut down a ****ty offense and we haven't exactly played juggernauts on that side of the ball yet. I still think the jury is out on that unit until we come up against an offense that is actually competent. But I do like what I've seen in the back end for the most part (Revis needs to play press more) thus far.

patfanken said:

A few comments on the comments

1. I read a post in another thread,. where the poster gave stats that showed that through the first 3 games, the Pats have had almost identical number of sacks and QB hits as they had last season.


3. I reiterate my comment on Revis. People may want to nitpick a VERY few specific plays, but the fact is that the Pats have the #1 pass defense in the league with the biggest difference being the addition of Darelle Revis. Let me repeat that. The Pats have the NUMBER ONE pass defense in the league to date.

4. Finally on a really REALLY positive note. The Pats have, relatively speaking, seem to be doing much better on the injury front thus far. Given that we started the season seemingly leading the league in players coming off ACL injuries and the like.....so far so good.

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Great points. However, last year, I think most of the sacks were coverage sacks as no one could get open. This year, Brady is just getting killed.

On point 3, I agree. Don't people remember how we would make the Henne's and Fitzpatricks look like HOF QBs? It was infuriating! Now we make those guys look like the garbage they are and no one is happy. Don't get it.

On point 4. We have been lucky so far but don't jinx it!

IMHO, only a new fan could suggest that this is the worst mistake ever. Suggesting that this decision is "negligent" is to not understand what the word means, again, IMHO. But I am not the diction police. You also seem to not understand the meaning of "passive aggressive".

You might have noted my tirades on many threads with regard to the mistake of putting Cannon at LG, and starting Devey. For most, this is probably getting tiresome. We agree in our criticism of the OL decisions over the past month. Where we disagree is with regard to the severity of the mistake, given that we are 2-1, have lots of options and are likely head to the playoffs.

You can say anything you want in confidence. Since I understand the limits of my own knowledge and know many on the board with more knowledge than I have, I doubt very much that you know more about NFL football than those who post here regularly.

Knowing your first name or mine would not indicate anything about our football knowledge.
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SUBSTANCE
Yes, starting an interior line of Connolly-Stork-Cannon would likely lead to an improvement, and likely (along with some health from Gronk) solve many of the problems we have with the OL.

IMHO, Stork would have started Game One if he had not been injured and missed so much of the pre-season.
Wendell was his emergency backup, and was signed to a backup contract.

I suppose that we disagree with regard to Connolly. I have always expected him to start at one of the three interior line positions this year. And yes, I do indeed think that Connolly would do well at LG, even better than at RG.
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BOTTOM LINE
Belichick thought that it was time to move away from Mankins. He has made this decision with regard to veterans several times in the past. I have disagreed with him on almost all of those occasions.

We posters do not like Belichick's planning for the OL. He has decided to spend his OL bucks (and picks) on OT's. He has decided to get his interior linemen from free agency and the 3rd round or later in the draft. Unless there has been a spectacular choice available (Mankins), Belichick has used this strategy and valuation for many years. Many posters would change Belichick's emphasis on defensive linemen and defensive backs early. The issue is value.

So, sure, I disagree. Sure, I would have a Svitek or a Thomas or this year's equivalent on the 53. I don't understand why Kline isn't starting, since he was a starter last year. I don't mention Devey. In the end, Belichick thought that Devey was a better choice than Kline. I disagree, not because Kline is a great prospect, but because playing Kline for a few games while Stork got healthy would have caused much less disruption to the performance of the OL.

And most of all, I don't understand why Cannon is starting at LEFT guard. In the end, after digesting the idea that it was time for Mankins to go, starting Cannon at LG was a really strange idea.

Brady6 said:

I am a new fan of the Patriots? Do we know each other personally, because I do not even think you know my real first name, that is just a dumb thing to even suggest, especially considering I would say with confidence that I know more about football than you and most people on this board.



Trading Mankins 2 weeks before the start of the season, moving a career RT to LG, and inserting a 26 year old UDFA into the starting lineup at RG, yes that is negligent and a major mistake. If you do not agree, I suggest you watch the first 3 games of the season again and this time pay attention to the OL play.



And yet you continue to quote my posts with some passive aggressive insult to start them off.



Wow, the Patriots have a 2-1 record against 3 teams that combined for a 17-30 record last season. Well in that case every decision was the right one. The biggest fail on this board is when people throw around the Patriots record as if it is an excuse for everything. The Patriots have had arguably the best QB in history for over decade; look at the records of other HOF QBs how often did they have losing seasons?



Are there? What are they MG, inserting Bryan Stork is going to fix everything, yeah, OK.



Wendell was not injured in the preseason #1. Stork showed well against the Raiders on the final 12 snaps of the game and you have him as a starter if not for an injury, sure thing. Connolly struggles at RG but you are moving him to LG that makes a lot of sense.



Yeah I disagree, and nothing you said here did much to change my view.

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Brady6 said:

You will be in a panic when Tom Brady is being carted off the field, I can promise you that. Above all things on this team the protection of Tom Brady should be #1 priority. If you are not even close to panic that on a weekly basis Brady gets the **** kicked out of him you are looking at the picture wrong, I personally do not give a **** if the offense scores 15 points a game for the next 6 weeks as long as we win. I do care that Brady is getting abused weekly. I am conscious of the fact that at 37-years-old he will end up out for the season or worse suffer a career ending injury.
The bolded part was more detrimental to your post than beneficial; disparaging others, approach to posting does not add creditability to what you say. As far as the anxiety goes, you are being shortsighted, as I said in above the next hit could be Brady’s last so the team putting him behind that OL is just negligent and far and away the biggest mistake of Bill Belichick’s tenure in New England.

Once again, you are looking at it from a production perspective when the real issue is that Brady is getting hit too often and if it continues he will not last the season, and then any chances of winning anything are GONE, forget a division crown, that is a distant memory if Brady is injured.

There are things we can take time and be patient as they improve, protecting Tom Brady is not one of them, end of story. Also according to Greg Bedard the Patriots new OL coach is not being well received by the players.

I agree with basically everything else you posted, but I think you should really consider the ramification of Brady being hit so often and not just the lack of production on offense.

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I wish I could quote this a million times. Brady + Belichick are the only reasons this team is any good. Keeping Brady upright should be the most important thing, bar none. When he's gone this, this team is toast. Gotta maximize this goldmine before he retires.

Ken, I think you're being too hard on Brady and underselling some of the OL concerns, which truly are panic worthy.

Broken clocks are right twice a day, and chicken littles occasionally have their panic justified. The anxiety that this OL causes the fan base is 100% justified. Through 3 games, I can't think of a unit on either side of the ball that performed so poorly so consistently to start the year.

Otherwise, good stuff as always.

mosi said:

Great points. However, last year, I think most of the sacks were coverage sacks as no one could get open. This year, Brady is just getting killed.

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Come on boys, I know the second half of Miami was **** as **** can be, but looking at the Oakland game this is just revisionist History.
The first sack was a failed block at RG, but the second sack was more than enough time to hit the first two reads. I also checked a random Game from 2013 (Vs CAR) which had also 2 sacks, both being blown blocks where brady was buried immediately, and this is exactly how I remembered last season.

Sacks are going to happen, and 2 sacks per game is an average performance. Each of these hurts, but they have always been there even in 2007.

All in all, this OLine is probably worse than what we are used to and probaly also slightly Sub Par, but please keep in mind,
A) the season is young, and the statistical effect of 30 minutes No-Show in Miami is still 17%
B) Dante should have been Assistant Coach of the year at least 12 years in a row. Whoever came behind him was going to be worse, that we were used to.

OTOH I also like what I see from the defense, who is still getting INTs like we are used to, but can also get to the QB better and force incompletions. They are rightfully ranked in the TOP3 and this including these 30 minutes down in florida.

So looks like we are back in 2003, with there is still potential for improvement from all the offensive parts. If this happen, we will be a valid Contender once more, if not we will still make the playoffs with this team and can try to sign tyree for the undeserved SB winning catch.

Lots of Sound & Fury signifying NOT A damn Thing.

primetime said:

It's interesting that this is the worst OL ever when previous lines have featured a slew of undrafted free agents (Hochstein, Gorin, Ashworth, Neal, Yates, Connolly, Wendell), later round picks (Koppen), and so on. I tend to think that the loss of Mankins matters (but not a lot), and that the vast majority of the issues are with Solder and stabilizing the right guard spot, which could happen if Stork is a good enough center. I just don't know how you fix Solder though. It may be that Vollmer will have to play LT and Cannon will move out to RT with Connolly, Stork, and Wendell as your interior linemen. I'm not sure that's any better though.

While I don't think he would have made a huge difference, trading away Mankins so late in the game was clearly a mistake. They could have moved him at the draft or prior to training camp, probably received a similar return, and have been able to look for external replacements.

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• An entire nullity but probably wrong in all three suppositions.
• Does Mankins make a difference or not?
• Trade opportunities happen. They seldom remain for long, as teams move on.
• BB drafted three possibilities for the problem. What more do you want?
• Your proposed solution still has the two weak problems that BB sought to fix. You are right It doesn't help.

Kulko said:

Come on boys, I know the second half of Miami was **** as **** can be, but looking at the Oakland game this is just revisionist History.
The first sack was a failed block at RG, but the second sack was more than enough time to hit the first two reads. I also checked a random Game from 2013 (Vs CAR) which had also 2 sacks, both being blown blocks where brady was buried immediately, and this is exactly how I remembered last season.

Sacks are going to happen, and 2 sacks per game is an average performance. Each of these hurts, but they have always been there even in 2007.

All in all, this OLine is probably worse than what we are used to and probaly also slightly Sub Par, but please keep in mind,
A) the season is young, and the statistical effect of 30 minutes No-Show in Miami is still 17%
B) Dante should have been Assistant Coach of the year at least 12 years in a row. Whoever came behind him was going to be worse, that we were used to.

OTOH I also like what I see from the defense, who is still getting INTs like we are used to, but can also get to the QB better and force incompletions. They are rightfully ranked in the TOP3 and this including these 30 minutes down in florida.

So looks like we are back in 2003, with there is still potential for improvement from all the offensive parts. If this happen, we will be a valid Contender once more, if not we will still make the playoffs with this team and can try to sign tyree for the undeserved SB winning catch.

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It's nice to maintain some reasonable perspective.

AzPatsFan said:

• An entire nullity but probably wrong in all three suppositions.
• Does Mankins make a difference or not?
• Trade opportunities happen. They seldom remain for long, as teams move on.
• BB drafted three possibilities for the problem. What more do you want?
• Your proposed solution still has the two weak problems that BB sought to fix. You are right It doesn't help.

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Mankins probably makes some difference, but Solder has been the real issue.

I would have preferred a veteran brought in over three guys drafted in the fourth round or later. Not that the latter is a bad thing, but you shouldn't be expecting a 5th round rookie to come in and be your starting center.

mgteich said:

You continue to remind us how new a fan of the patriots you are.

So, starting Devey for three games is just negligent and the worst mistake ever made by Belichick?

It is not unusual that I do not understand your hyperbolic analysis.

The result of the worst mistake ever is that we are 2-1 and an odds on favorite to be in the playoffs.

The result of the worst mistake ever is that the OL is the major weakness of the team, and there are several solutions.

If Stork and Wendell weren't injured in the preseason, the worst ever mistake may not even have happened. We might have started the season with Solder-Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer.

So, no, this is not the worst mistake that belichick has ever made.

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Well said, MGT.

But Connolly is still a major part of the problem that BB set out to fix. Why would moving him to a new position help any? He is what he is at 33, and played poorly last season.

At least Cannon is young, could play Tackle, and might grow into a good Guard.

Connolly, if anything, has been the one steady presence on a line that's otherwise a dumpster fire. He could certainly be upgraded, but he's not the problem right now.

Kulko said:

Come on boys, I know the second half of Miami was **** as **** can be, but looking at the Oakland game this is just revisionist History.

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Revisionist history does not explain the regression of Nate Solder for two consecutive seasons. I will rely on Bedard's evaluation of the offensive line play than some novice posting on a message board.

Kulko said:

The first sack was a failed block at RG, but the second sack was more than enough time to hit the first two reads. I also checked a random Game from 2013 (Vs CAR) which had also 2 sacks, both being blown blocks where brady was buried immediately, and this is exactly how I remembered last season.

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Relying on a bunch of UDFAs on the offensive line is not the answer: Wendell, Connolly, Devey, Kline

Kulko said:

Sacks are going to happen, and 2 sacks per game is an average performance. Each of these hurts, but they have always been there even in 2007.

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Get your facts straight.

New England Patriots Quarterback Sacks Allowed:

2009 - 18
2010 - 25
2011 - 32
2012 - 27
2013 - 40

2013 was a noticeable upward trend that has continued in 2014.

Kulko said:

All in all, this OLine is probably worse than what we are used to and probaly also slightly Sub Par, but please keep in mind,
A) the season is young, and the statistical effect of 30 minutes No-Show in Miami is still 17%
B) Dante should have been Assistant Coach of the year at least 12 years in a row. Whoever came behind him was going to be worse, that we were used to.

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Neither promises a step in the right direction, especially with Devey on the roster, Cannon playing out of position, Solder's continued regression.

primetime said:

Mankins probably makes some difference, but Solder has been the real issue.

I would have preferred a veteran brought in over three guys drafted in the fourth round or later. Not that the latter is a bad thing, but you shouldn't be expecting a 5th round rookie to come in and be your starting center.

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Why Not? That is the typical draft position for a good number of Centers.

AzPatsFan said:

Why Not? That is the typical draft position for a good number of Centers.

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Who don't start in year one.

primetime said:

Connolly, if anything, has been the one steady presence on a line that's otherwise a dumpster fire. He could certainly be upgraded, but he's not the problem right now.

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According to Bedard, Connolly was the only semi-competent offensive lineman against the Oakland Raiders. I will trust Bedard's film review of the offensive line more so than a bunch of novices posting on a message board.

primetime said:

Who don't start in year one.

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Yup!

The top centers in the NFL today have been drafted either in the first or second round:

Kalil - 2007 2nd Round
Mack - 2009 1st Round
Unger - 2009 2nd Round
Pouncey - 2010 1st Round

ATippett56 said:

Revisionist history does not explain the regression of Nate Solder for two consecutive seasons. I will rely on Bedard's evaluation of the offensive line play than some novice posting on a message board.

Relying on a bunch of UDFAs on the offensive line is not the answer: Wendell, Connolly, Devey, Kline

Get your facts straight.

New England Patriots Quarterback Sacks Allowed:

2009 - 18
2010 - 25
2011 - 32
2012 - 27
2013 - 40

2013 was a noticeable upward trend that has continued in 2014.

Neither promises a step in the right direction, especially with Devey on the roster, Cannon playing out of position, Solder's continued regression.

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I don't understand. What 's the matter? Your posts are usually thoughtful, and spot on. All you have contributed to the Offensive line discussions in *****ing, nullities, and non sequitors.

The interior O line got old in 2013. The sacks soared from the 20s to an enormous 40. The weakest and oldest players needed to be replaced. The Pats are doing so, and unfortunately it will take time to do so,but it is a long season. There is time to do it, even if it takes half a season.

I get it. Devey is not the next coming of Ogden Pace, and you don't like him. He earned a shot in practice, got it, and failed. Your advice to cut him improves things, exactly how? Now I think he is now a blooded reserve who can play both tackle and guard as a substitute

Brady was rushed to throw, and got sacked 40 times in 2013. Your stats confirm the problem. Many, but not me, blamed the rookie receivers. He didn't have as much time then to throw, than he has had this season, as surprising as it appears to be to many. Equal 7 sacks in 2013 and 2014 over 3 games, but slightly more hits in 2013 than this year.

Solder's problems are independent of the interior changes. His talent and history indicates he will return to his high level of play, eventually.

History also indicates a Tackle can adapt and play G. Many Gs simply don't possess the physical talent to play Tackle though. Cannon will adapt. He has great size, has proven to be a tough run blocker, and has some short area mobility, and proven pass blocking ability too.