Koppen breaking down the O-line play

supafly said:

I will take it one step further than you, and state that I actually have no problem (or less problem, more appropriately) with him playing RG---but I don't like him playing on the left side at all. I think he looks out of place and slower footed against the defensive weak side passrushers.

I'd like to start by just getting him back to the R side, to be honest.

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Mankins is G-O-N-E. If Cannon goes to RG, who plays LG? Surely not Kline, who was beat out by Devey or Devey or even Connolly. So who?

AzPatsFan said:

I remember Mankins going in to start at LT, on another occasion. I also recall Cannon being inserted at LT on another different occasion, because it caused lots of comments. Perhaps it was in relief and not to start though.

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I still think you're referring to the MIA game last season in December when Solder was injured and Mankins took over for him at LT, then stayed the same way again the next week down in BAL. Josh Kline was an important part of the left side, taking over for Mankins' old position at LG.

I keep looking for any clues whatsoever that show Marcus Cannon as playing so much as a snap last season at LT, and cannot find anything.

The official patriots.com website lists every position that Cannon has every played, and there is no LT mention.

AzPatsFan said:

Mankins is G-O-N-E. If Cannon goes to RG, who plays LG? Surely not Kline, who was beat out by Devey or Devey or even Connolly. So who?

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Again...most here question the choice to move Cannon from the right side where he faced the defensive strong side to the left side where he now faces elite pass rushers. Not only did he change positions, but he changed positions AND sides.

There are a plethora of options that the Patriots could choose to use. Your mention of Josh Kline or even Dan Connelly would likely be more appropriate for left side duty. At least we've seen the two of them look okay in the past. Obviously, Belichick thought it more appropriate to try Cannon at LG, but it's possible those days are numbered depending on other circumstances.

Cannon looks lost and out of place on the left side. We'll have to see how it plays out. I share some of your optimism that things can be improved upon, but I do believe that a change or two needs to occur. I could be wrong.

The team replaced Mankins with Cannon at LG. Perhaps, you thought this was an upgrade and that Solder should play better with Cannon at LG?

ATippett56 said:

This does not explain why Nate Solder has regressed for a second year in a row. That seems like a coaching issue to me.

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AzPatsFan said:

Devey must have earned a shot bypassing Kline and Barker, as the best of Dante's latest projects. Do you deny him an an opportunity to excel? Then how do you find the next UDFA, or convince him to sign? Devey is now a blooded reserve. End-of-story.

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UDFAs have now proven to be not the long term solution at the offensive guard position: Wendell, Connolly, Devey, Kline, Barker.

AzPatsFan said:

Cannon has had a problem at LG but his good performance as a LT in relief of Solder proved he can play on the Left side. Part of Cannon's problem is Solders play.

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Marcus Cannon has never started a game at left tackle in the NFL.

http://www.patriots.com/team/roster/Marcus-Cannon/93790dde-3b7d-47de-85c0-c3f2b7847259

AzPatsFan said:

It's too bad about Storks injury. Wendell and or Connollly have proved they can't do it. OK Mr. Tippett, give me your solution at C.

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According to Bedard's film review, Connolly was the only semi-competent offensive lineman against the Oakland Raiders.

AzPatsFan said:

Belichick set out to replace Wendell and Connolly.and drafted relatively high picks at their positions do so. If Mankins couldn't be cut for Cap reasons this year, than I suppose Cannon could have gone to RG and Flemming could play swing RT. Then the trade opportunity appeared, take it of lose it. What would you have done, AT?

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I would have drafted Stefen Wisniewski, C/OG Penn State instead of Glass-IR Dowling with the #33 pick in the 2011 NFL Draft.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/my-early-shopping-list.728725/

Post #20

AzPatsFan said:

None of the newcomers or moved veterans have proven anything. What makes Flemming unique?

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What has Flemming proven to be a starting offensive guard in the NFL?

AzPatsFan said:

When has Belichick ever given away his plans? Can you even get him to even tell you the Time from his watch? You have to see and judge his on going actions.

Look all we really know is that last season the O-line gave up an unacceptable 40 sacks, with Mankins yielding 11. BB set out to fix it, judging by the Draft selections. He is in the midst of doing so.

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Judging by his draft selections, Bill Belichick already whiffed on Jon Halapio. Devey is a disaster. Kline has yet to start a game in the 2014 NFL Season. Barker is a practice squad player.

I agree that Vollmer has not looked good.

I think that Vollmer has a similar problem to Solder. He is playing next to a weak guard, in this case Devey. Also, there has been precious little help from the TE's and RB's.

supafly said:

Not that I'm correct too often, but I actually have thought for awhile that Connelly has looked okay for the most part.

I also haven't believed the thought that "Vollmer has played well." That is just not right. He may be the lesser of the Cannon/Devey evils, but there were a good handful of plays where Vollmer clearly screwed up or easily got beat on Sunday.

Thanks for the update.

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mgteich said:

I agree that Vollmer has not looked good.

I think that Vollmer has a similar problem to Solder. He is playing next to a weak guard, in this case Devey. Also, there has been precious little help from the TE's and RB's.

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Vollmer is a 30 year old offensive tackle coming off a broken leg last season.

http://www.patriots.com/team/roster/Sebastian-Vollmer/123eabda-9eee-4a75-8b49-9e71fd3cf59d

Sicilian said:

He might not, all things being equal. But to me our options for guards are:

Connolly - Veteran
Kline - Unproven
Devey - Proven terrible
Cannon - Might be better at T, and regardless may fit better at RG than LG if at all
Flemming - Rookie

Of those two, at the moment I prefer Connolly and Cannon, with the possibility of Flemming beating out Cannon in the long run.

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I think that is possibly the best solution. But ONLY If you concede no playoffs this year, and can experiment all 16 games. I'm NOT WILLING to concede that and interpreting BBs past actions, neither is he. He wants something workable now and maybe he will tinker next off season.

I'll add another couple of complications. You have to find an answer that gives Cannon a starting position or you will lose him in FA. IF Connolly is part of your solution, other than backup, he will be 34 next season, and you'll have to replace him too.

IMHO, there are TWO DECISIONS on the critical left side of the line.

The most important is at LG. Cannon needs to be moved to the right side. Kline should be tried at LG. The alternative is Connolly.

The other decision is at LT. Perhaps, Vollmer and Solder should be switched.
======

The elephant in the room is the team's evaluation of Cannon at LG. If they think that he is doing OK, then there is little to do but wait.

patsderoer said:

Sign Incognito? This OL needs toughness

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BOOO!

mgteich said:

Yup! We FINALLY are focusing on the most serious problem in the OL, along with the associated play by Solder who is much worse without his personal crutch beside him.

Why, oh why is Cannon playing LG instead of Kline or Connolly?

IMHO, we should have simply played next man up, and had Stork replace Wendell when he was ready. The choice of starting the season with Cannon at LG and Devey at RG is just plain weird.

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If you weren't looking ,we already did try your proposal in Preseason and the First game.

AzPatsFan said:

BOOO!

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I doubt that it would be considered here, due to the character concerns.

That said, we are a bit desperate for improved play, and many believe that he can add to the physicality and show a better effort in one of the all-important interior positions, likely LG.

As to the talent of his actual play---that is up for debate, but I can understand either side of it, and trust that Belichick will (hopefully) make the right choice.

AzPatsFan said:

If you weren't looking ,we already did try your proposal in Preseason and the First game.

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What happened in the first game? I think you're mistaken again.

Kline did not play at all, and Wendell actually looked fine (believe it or not) when he was in there. The offense moved nicely, and protected Brady--which is really saying something, considering how weak Wendell is in certain areas.

We all know Wendell's weaknesses, but it's unfair to blame anything on Wendell for the 2014 season, since he's been injured in all but one half of the Miami game.

As for Kline, he didn't see any snaps until the end of the MIN game, which basically occurred in garbage time.

mgteich said:

IMHO, there are TWO DECISIONS on the critical left side of the line.

The most important is at LG. Cannon needs to be moved to the right side. Kline should be tried at LG. The alternative is Connolly.

The other decision is at LT. Perhaps, Vollmer and Solder should be switched.
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The elephant in the room is the team's evaluation of Cannon at LG. If they think that he is doing OK, then there is little to do but wait.

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Devey should be jettisoned off the roster.

Cannon has proven to be a competent right offensive tackle not as an offensive guard.

Vollmer is coming off a broken leg last season.

Kline started a game last season at left offensive guard. Might be worth a look once again this season.

The offensive line is a mess and I'm starting to lose faith in DeGarbageMo.

mgteich said:

IMHO, there are TWO DECISIONS on the critical left side of the line.

The most important is at LG. Cannon needs to be moved to the right side. Kline should be tried at LG. The alternative is Connolly.

The other decision is at LT. Perhaps, Vollmer and Solder should be switched.
======

The elephant in the room is the team's evaluation of Cannon at LG. If they think that he is doing OK, then there is little to do but wait.

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I thought I read at end of TC that Kline was the only OL to win every 1-on-1.

mgteich said:

So, two games at LG makes Cannon the LG of the present and the future? Perhaps, we can get rid of the entire preseason if that is all it takes. And since Fleming is a rookie, it might take FOUR games for him to play at a top NFL player at an entirely new position?

There are many words that come to mind for a strategy that starts Cannon at LG, Stork at C, and Fleming at RG. "Resolute" is not one of them.

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MGT,

Give me a better strategy. I'm waiting. Maybe the Bucs will recind their trade?

No not merely 2 games at LG. Try 4 going on 5 years as super-sub all over the Offensive line, proving he is adaptable, and an NFL quality player.

I don't recall you complaining then about getting the "missing piece at TE", which you harped on all off-season. Plusyou are very conscious of every dime paid to the Players, ioncluding overpaid Mankins, Connolly and Amendola among others.

The Brandon Five said:

I thought I read at end of TC that Kline was the only OL to win every 1-on-1.

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It seemed that Kline was the consensus choice from posters to replace Mankins at LG, then went on to have a bit of a shaky performance in the preseason game that soon followed.

Apparently, that somewhat shaky performance spooked Belichick enough to where he used Devey for the entire 4th preseason game, and carried that into the regular season. Either that, or he sees something in Jordan Devey that he obviously likes...or a bit of both.

AzPatsFan said:

No not merely 2 games at LG. Try 4 going on 5 years as super-sub all over the Offensive line, proving he is adaptable, and an NFL quality player.

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Boy, AZ--you are really overstating Marcus Cannon's play since he's been here. "Super-sub all over the offensive line?" LOL?

He's been a backup right tackle...that's it. He finally got the opportunity to start 6 games at RT last year due to Vollmer's injury (started one other time in 2012), and saw a very brief role at RG for a couple of quarters in the Saints game last year. He did however, come in during some additional right tackle eligible tight end situations, such as the Oct. 28th game in 2012 vs the Rams.

This is his only time playing right guard, which took place in a relief role for the rest of the game...ONE time:

Came on in relief of Dan Connolly at right guard vs. New Orleans (10/13) after Connolly left the game with a foot injury and did not return.

Reading his biography will do you wonders, since there seems to be a lot of confusion:

http://www.patriots.com/team/roster/Marcus-Cannon/93790dde-3b7d-47de-85c0-c3f2b7847259

Deus Irae said:

I certainly wasn't flying solo on my take regarding Mankins.

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Here was Matt Light's take on it yesterday:

"I think the loss of Logan Mankins goes far beyond what you see on Sunday,” Light said. “There’s something about having a swagger to everything you do. It’s something you can’t manufacture, and you can’t coach it. Unfortunately, there’s a feeling, ‘Hey look, the next guy up will figure it out and get it done.’ But knowing the person, and knowing the guy Logan Mankins was, I know for a fact that’s irreplaceable. They don’t have it now, and they won’t have it at the end of the season when it comes to what that guy offered that team."

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-.../patriots-4th-quarter-review-red-zone-failure

3. While right guard Jordan Devey was replaced in the fourth quarter, left guard Marcus Cannon also struggled at various points, as he seems more comfortable at tackle than guard. He was beaten on a spin move by Antonio Smith on the drive-starting 15-yard connection to Edelman, which was an excellent catch by Edelman and a tough throw by Brady to stand in as Smith bore down on him. Solder, who is really struggling and seems to be most affected by the coaching change from Dante Scarnecchia to Dave DeGuglielmo based on his dip in play, was later beaten cleanly by Justin Tuck on an inside move, his technique failing as Tuck put a big lick on Brady on an incomplete pass (6:32 remaining). Cannon and right guard Dan Connolly seemed most culpable on the final sack of Brady (4:43 remaining) as the Raiders took it to the Patriots.

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It's a mess whether it's Devey, Cannon, Solder.