Koppen breaking down the O-line play

patfanken said:

Wow, for all that so called intelligence, you don't seem to comprehend the English language that well, do you? My cobmment focused on your omnibus declaration that Logan Mankins was the best Pats offensive lineman last season. That it was a myth that his play had declined.

You made the damned statement as if it were unquestioned fact, with nothing to back it up but your own overblown ego. Please pull up the quote where players said Mankins was their best OLman. That might take a while. Also while you are at it, you might want to find the quote where I stated everything was great with the OL. Oh yeah, I forgot, it doesn't really have to have happened if it comes from you.

Huge ego, misinformation, constant negative views of the Patriots.....OMG, is that you Ron Borges.

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What's fascinating about your post is that I tend to stay our of your threads in order to avoid just the sort of stupidity you're displaying here, but you don't have the self control to even do a quick Google check before posting your foolishness. I certainly wasn't flying solo on my take regarding Mankins:

A league source connected to several Patriots players used a “p” word that rhymes with “missed” to describe the mood in the locker room Tuesday. Many players still felt that Mankins was the best lineman on the team, the source said.

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http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...timentality/uoo6vVKt9Ii6yQV2e7cJPK/story.html

Hypocrites such as yourself bore the hell out of me. You're the poster who posts his "Idle thoughts" week after week, posting as if you know more than anyone except Bill Belichick, and calling those who disagree with your ridiculously homer takes such things as "self-entitled hand wringers", when you're so often just talking out of your ass. So, feel free to put me on ignore. I promise you that I won't miss your posts. If you won't do that, at least spare me the sanctimony, since you're doing the same thing you whine about in others.

Also, go learn what omnibus means before you try using it again. Brilliant work there, when you're calling out someone else's intelligence.

mayoclinic said:

I don't know about pressures, but from looking at the box scores Brady's been hit 14 times so far this season. He was hit 15 times in the first 3 games of 2013. An interesting pattern:

Game 1: 9 hits by the Bills in 2013 (3 sacks), 6 hits by the Dolphins in 2014 (4 sacks)
Game 2: 1 hit by the Jets in 2013 (1 sack), 2 hits by the Vikings in 2014 (1 sack)
Game 3: 6 hits by the Bucs in 2013 (3 sacks), 6 hits by the Raiders in 2014 (2 sacks)

The 2013 line continued to struggle: 2 QB hits and 0 sacks to Atlanta week 4 (week), 8 QB hits and 4 sacks to Cincinnati week 5 (loss), 7 QB hits and 5 sacks to New Orleans week 6 (last minute win), 3 QB hits and 4 sacks to the Jets week 7 (loss), 4 QB hits and 3 sacks to Miami week 8 (win), 6 QB hits and 3 sacks to Pittsburgh week 9 (blowout win), 6 QB hits and 2 sacks to Carolina week 11 (loss), 6 QB hits and 3 sacks to Denver week 12 (OT win), 5 QB hits and 1 sack to Houston week 13 (win), 6 QB hits and 4 sacks to Cleveland week 14 (last minute win), 7 QB hits and 1 sack to Miami week 15 (win), 4 QB hits and 2 sacks to Baltimore week 16 (blowout win), 2 QB hits and 1 sack to Buffalo week 17 (win; Pats with 267 yards rushing and only 24 pass attempts).

Brady got hit a lot last year. Atlanta and Buffalo were probably the 2 best OL games, and rushing the ball effectively and cutting down on Brady's pass attempts definitely helped decrease the amount he got hit.

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These 2013 statistics prove that the current incumbents of the interior Offensive line had grown old and ineffective. It mandated the forced surgery BB is doing. Brady couldn't continue as it was. The only question is whether he can endure the pain of the necessary surgery, before improvement comes,

BB is carefully staging the newcomers, Cannon is now fully installed all game long for two games and should stabilize the blind side with a 150 more snaps, or two games.

Stork has yet to play a full game at Center, but has about half a game of snaps there. He'll need two or three full games of snaps before he should settle down.

Flemming is purposely behind the others. The only snaps he has had in the NFL have been 3/4 of a game of snaps at blocking TE aka 6th tackle. I'd say he needs four more games of playing RG, before he can settle in at RG.

But here BB has a choice. He could decide that Connolly can remain the RG for the balance of the season, and put off Flemming entry at RG. Maybe giving him some snaps in relief to prep him for taking over next season. Don't forget though, that Connolly was and is part of the problem. He didn't exactly cover himself with glory last season.

Or BB can remain resolute and force Flemming into RG, and let the final Offensive line configuration all play together for the last half of the season, hoping to benefit by the bigger, stronger, more dominant line in the Playoffs.

To do so BB would need the Defense to continue to blossom; and win a few games for the Pats to ensure their Playoff appearance. Off the first few games, I think the D is capable of doing exactly that. I suspect the answer to RG is a question of what the record is at mid-season.
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So, two games at LG makes Cannon the LG of the present and the future? Perhaps, we can get rid of the entire preseason if that is all it takes. And since Fleming is a rookie, it might take FOUR games for him to play at a top NFL player at an entirely new position?

There are many words that come to mind for a strategy that starts Cannon at LG, Stork at C, and Fleming at RG. "Resolute" is not one of them.

AzPatsFan said:

These 2013 statistics prove that the current incumbents of the interior Offensive line had grown old and ineffective. It mandated the forced surgery BB is doing. Brady couldn't continue as it was. The only question is whether he can endure the pain of the necessary surgery, before improvement comes,

BB is carefully staging the newcomers, Cannon is now fully installed all game long for two games and should stabilize the blind side with a 150 more snaps, or two games.

Stork has yet to play a full game at Center, but has about half a game of snaps there. He'll need two or three full games of snaps before he should settle down.

Flemming is purposely behind the others. The only snaps he has had in the NFL have been 3/4 of a game of snaps at blocking TE aka 6th tackle. I'd say he needs four more games of playing RG, before he can settle in at RG.

But here BB has a choice. He could decide that Connolly can remain the RG for the balance of the season, and put off Flemming entry at RG. Maybe giving him some snaps in relief to prep him for taking over next season. Don't forget though, that Connolly was and is part of the problem. He didn't exactly cover himself with glory last season.

Or BB can remain resolute and force Flemming into RG, and let the final Offensive line configuration all play together for the last half of the season, hoping to benefit by the bigger, stronger, more dominant line in the Playoffs.

To do so BB would need the Defense to continue to blossom; and win a few games for the Pats to ensure their Playoff appearance. Off the first few games, I think the D is capable of doing exactly that. I suspect the answer to RG is a question of what the record is at mid-season.
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The key to any improvement on this O line is the immediate removal of Devey...IMO.

AzPatsFan said:

These 2013 statistics prove that the current incumbents of the interior Offensive line had grown old and ineffective. It mandated the forced surgery BB is doing. Brady couldn't continue as it was. The only question is whether he can endure the pain of the necessary surgery, before improvement comes.

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The newcomers have been worse, especially Devey.

AzPatsFan said:

BB is carefully staging the newcomers, Cannon is now fully installed all game long for two games and should stabilize the blind side with a 150 more snaps, or two games.

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Cannon has been crap at left guard.

AzPatsFan said:

Stork has yet to play a full game at Center, but has about half a game of snaps there. He'll need two or three full games of snaps before he should settle down.

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Stork is still just a rookie who missed the entire preseason.

AzPatsFan said:

Flemming is purposely behind the others. The only snaps he has had in the NFL have been 3/4 of a game of snaps at blocking TE aka 6th tackle. I'd say he needs four more games of playing RG, before he can settle in at RG.

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Fleming played right tackle on the third string offensive line in preseason with the interior trio of Barker - Cave - Halapio.

AzPatsFan said:

But here BB has a choice. He could decide that Connolly can remain the RG for the balance of the season, and put off Flemming entry at RG. Maybe giving him some snaps in relief to prep him for taking over next season. Don't forget though, that Connolly was and is part of the problem. He didn't exactly cover himself with glory last season.

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Fleming has proven nothing at the offensive guard position.

AzPatsFan said:

Or BB can remain resolute and force Flemming into RG, and let the final Offensive line configuration all play together for the last half of the season, hoping to benefit by the bigger, stronger, more dominant line in the Playoffs.

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Show me a transcript of a Bill Belichick press conference stating this "new" offensive line combination.

SeanBruschi54 said:

Greg Bedard just watched the Patriots offensive all 22 tape.

He said Patriots film room this week must have been a blood bath.
Everyone outside of Connolly is awful.
Vollmer looks as it hes 50
He is all in on Stork starting for this team at center.

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Not that I'm correct too often, but I actually have thought for awhile that Connelly has looked okay for the most part.

I also haven't believed the thought that "Vollmer has played well." That is just not right. He may be the lesser of the Cannon/Devey evils, but there were a good handful of plays where Vollmer clearly screwed up or easily got beat on Sunday.

Thanks for the update.

MassPats38 said:

Wow, Joker. You really do find yourself in a dark place after this win. I don't remember the first 3 games of last year inspiring confidence, but cannot recall this level of response from you then.

I believe BB can be deliberate and somewhat Machiavellian at times, but to suggest he deliberately installed a lousy OL in order to get Brady injured and make way for JAG is a little too Alexandre Dumas or King David and Bathsheba. If BB really wanted that outcome, send Brady on a bunch of naked bootlegs with slow developing pass plays. BB likes to win, and killing Brady is not the fast route to a winning record.

Remember BB had more than a year of watching Brady when Bledsoe went down. He has had weeks to watch JAG, who has zero familiarity with the NFL at this point. I cannot credit the line play to some Machiavellian end of removing Brady on a stretcher. Planning is involved, but possibly more poor execution of a plan that good execution with appropriate results. Losing Dante means any replacement is a step down. I have no idea what the options were, or if the current line coach is the best available, but I have to believe that is at the core of the issue. Maybe the players aren't embracing his new scheme, but I do know if they don't start embracing and executing some coherent scheme, intend it or not, JAG will see playing time. That line play Sunday cannot happen again.

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Yes i'm afraid it will happen again. Stork is not yet entrenched as a full time starter at C. Fleming has not even begun taking snaps at RG. The Surgery will continue for at least four more games.

Then things should begin to settle down and we'll start to see the real benefits. Last years stats prove the date of the incumbent line had expired. "The KIng is dead. Long live the King." is the way the Brits would say it.

You may not like the Surgery but you needs it before returning to health.

This is all predicated on four full games at a position will make you a young veteran at a position, provided of course you possess the physical talent to do so.

On my projection, I expect most of the new Offensive line will have had a minimum of 8 to 12 games playing together to build teamwork and anticipation.

supafly said:

Not that I'm correct too often, but I actually have thought for awhile that Connelly has looked okay for the most part.

I also haven't believed the thought that "Vollmer has played well." That is just not right. He may be the lesser of the Cannon/Devey evils, but there were a good handful of plays where Vollmer clearly screwed up or easily got beat on Sunday.

Thanks for the update.

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The entire offensive line is in shambles. Not only is this a talent issue, it seems as if it's a coaching issue as well.

ATippett56 said:

The entire offensive line is in shambles. Not only is this a talent issue, it seems as if it's a coaching issue as well.

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I agree with you, but I still have hope that the addition/removal of one of the players and re-assessing of the specific positions can help to solve the issue.

supafly said:

I agree with you, but I still have hope that the addition/removal of one of the players and re-assessing of the specific positions can help to solve the issue.

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This does not explain why Nate Solder has regressed for a second year in a row. That seems like a coaching issue to me.

ATippett56 said:

This does not explain why Nate Solder has regressed for a second year in a row. That seems like a coaching issue to me.

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Could very well be.

It also could be that he's missing Mankins a bit--or just playing worse than before.

I doubt we'll ever know, but it's a shame. Solder was good, but often overrated. He's looked mediocre to good at best this year, and that's being kind.

supafly said:

I doubt we'll ever know, but it's a shame. Solder was good, but often overrated. He's looked mediocre to good at best this year, and that's being kind.

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Bloody awful is the best description of Nate Solder's play this season, especially for a former first rounder.

AzPatsFan said:

I think I have some answers to why Cannon went to LG.

Cannon played LT for Solder in a few games at the end of last season. He did a pretty good job of it too. I believe it opened BBs eyes to some possibilities.

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I don't remember this at all, much like I don't remember your claim that Fleming played RG the other day.

Are you sure these things actually happened?

I remember Logan Mankins playing LT in Nate Solder's place last year, but definitely do not remember Marcus Cannon being our LT. Perhaps I just don't remember and you're right? I tried to find proof of this occurring, but could not.

According to the patriots.com official website, Marcus Cannon did not play any LT last year.

http://www.patriots.com/team/roster/Marcus-Cannon/93790dde-3b7d-47de-85c0-c3f2b7847259[/QUOTE]

supafly said:

I don't remember this at all, much like I don't remember your claim that Fleming played RG the other day.

Are you sure these things actually happened?

I remember Logan Mankins playing LT in Nate Solder's place last year, but definitely do not remember Marcus Cannon being our LT. Perhaps I just don't remember and you're right? I tried to find proof of this occurring, but could not.

According to the patriots.com official website, Marcus Cannon did not play any LT last year.

http://www.patriots.com/team/roster/Marcus-Cannon/93790dde-3b7d-47de-85c0-c3f2b7847259

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@AzPatsFan --

I think you're referring to the brief game or two where Logan Mankins played LT in Nate Solder's absence, but it definitely wasn't Marcus Cannon.

Hell, Solder started 15/16 games last year and the only game he didn't play saw Mankins playing at LT and Josh Kline at LG. That was in week 16 down at Baltimore, and the run game looked fairly decent.

Week one of this season was definitely the first time that Marcus Cannon saw any time on the left side whatsoever, unless maybe in max protect or jumbo packages. In those situations, some of the right side guys tend to line up on the left for a play every now and then--mostly in goal line situations, such as Sebastian Vollmer has done this year, along with TE Hooman.

supafly said:

I don't remember this at all, much like I don't remember your claim that Fleming played RG the other day.

Are you sure these things actually happened?

I remember Logan Mankins playing LT in Nate Solder's place last year, but definitely do not remember Marcus Cannon being our LT. Perhaps I just don't remember and you're right? I tried to find proof of this occurring, but could not.

According to the patriots.com official website, Marcus Cannon did not play any LT last year.

http://www.patriots.com/team/roster/Marcus-Cannon/93790dde-3b7d-47de-85c0-c3f2b7847259

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I have no problem with Marcus Cannon playing the right offensive tackle position. If Marcus Cannon was such a great offensive guard prospect, he would have been the opening day starter at right offensive guard last season. Obviously Dante Scarnecchia saw something in Marcus Cannon that does not translate to the offensive guard position in the NFL.

ATippett56 said:

The newcomers have been worse, especially Devey.

Cannon has been crap at left guard.

Stork is still just a rookie who missed the entire preseason.

Fleming played right tackle on the third string offensive line in preseason with the interior trio of Barker - Cave - Halapio.

Fleming has proven nothing at the offensive guard position.

Show me a transcript of a Bill Belichick press conference stating this "new" offensive line combination.

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Devey must have earned a shot bypassing Kline and Barker, as the best of Dante's latest projects. Do you deny him an an opportunity to excel? Then how do you find the next UDFA, or convince him to sign? Devey is now a blooded reserve. End-of-story.

Cannon has had a problem at LG but his good performance as a LT in relief of Solder proved he can play on the Left side. Part of Cannon's problem is Solders play.

It's too bad about Storks injury. Wendell and or Connollly have proved they can't do it. OK Mr. Tippett, give me your solution at C.

Belichick set out to replace Wendell and Connolly.and drafted relatively high picks at their positions do so. If Mankins couldn't be cut for Cap reasons this year, than I suppose Cannon could have gone to RG and Flemming could play swing RT. Then the trade opportunity appeared, take it of lose it. What would you have done, AT?

None of the newcomers or moved veterans have proven anything. What makes Flemming unique?

When has Belichick ever given away his plans? Can you even get him to even tell you the Time from his watch? You have to see and judge his on going actions.

Look all we really know is that last season the O-line gave up an unacceptable 40 sacks, with Mankins yielding 11. BB set out to fix it, judging by the Draft selections. He is in the midst of doing so.





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ATippett56 said:

I have no problem with Marcus Cannon playing the right offensive tackle position. If Marcus Cannon was such a great offensive guard prospect, he would have been the opening day starter at right offensive guard last season. Obviously Dante Scarnecchia saw something in Marcus Cannon that does not translate to the offensive guard position in the NFL.

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I will take it one step further than you, and state that I actually have no problem (or less problem, more appropriately) with him playing RG---but I don't like him playing on the left side at all. I think he looks out of place and slower footed against the defensive weak side passrushers.

I'd like to start by just getting him back to the R side, to be honest.

supafly said:

@AzPatsFan --

I think you're referring to the brief game or two where Logan Mankins played LT in Nate Solder's absence, but it definitely wasn't Marcus Cannon.

Hell, Solder started 15/16 games last year and the only game he didn't play saw Mankins playing at LT and Josh Kline at LG. That was in week 16 down at Baltimore, and the run game looked fairly decent.

Week one of this season was definitely the first time that Marcus Cannon saw any time on the left side whatsoever, unless maybe in max protect or jumbo packages. In those situations, some of the right side guys tend to line up on the left for a play every now and then--mostly in goal line situations, such as Sebastian Vollmer has done this year, along with TE Hooman.

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I remember Mankins going in to start at LT, on another occasion. I also recall Cannon being inserted at LT on another different occasion, because it caused lots of comments. Perhaps it was in relief and not to start though.