Koppen breaking down the O-line play

When there is a talent black hole at one spot, every other spot suffers.

Wendell and Devey are talent black holes.

Stork being healthy and playing whole games will hopefully fix a lot of things.

I hope.

While I appreciate the veteran breakdown, this was akin to an MIT educated meteorologist telling you it rained yesterday while your in the process of mopping up your garage floor. The OL's play sucked, period. Maybe it was a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10 or maybe it was a .9.
IMHO the OL is the crux of the entire problem. They start playing better and we score more, we hold on to the ball more, we run more (softening up their D), our D is on the field less. I'm only a veteran of Tecmo bowl but even I can see what's killing the Patriots.

Can we bring in someone new? Can we bring Halapio back?

1) We overstate the quality of past OL's. There are many on this board who have criticized almost every lineman, almost every year. Of course, Mankins was a stable force through 2012.

2) To me, one major problem is at LT. Cannon-Stork-Connolly in the middle is probably OK if the other issues are solved.

3) The TE's are essential to our line play. Other than Fleming, we aren't getting a lot of quality blocking.

4) The somewhat undiscussed problem is the lack of success in short passes over the middle. Given that at least two of the teams were playing with substitute LB's, this makes little sense. The way the patriots have usually beaten pressure is to utilize short passes over the middle to Edelman, Gronk and Amendola. They just aren't happening. Can't anyone be trusted over the middle: Edelman, Amendola, Wright, LaFell?

5) Sometimes, Brady does have time. When Brady has time, he seems to have no confidence in his receivers on any pattern over 15 yards.

BOTTOM LINE
It is incomplete and misleading to suggest that if the OL could just do their job and give Brady plenty of time, everything would be fine. Of course, that's the case. It would be if Polo was our quarterback.

The OPEN question is why the patriots have not been able to adjust when the OL as the weak point of their offense. To me, the answer is lack of blocking by others, and lack of confidence in the receivers, especially over the middle. There are many answers to an aggressive pass rush. We haven't used any effectively, or almost not at all. For me, that is more troubling than anything.

mgteich said:

1) We overstate the quality of past OL's. There are many on this board who have criticized almost every lineman, almost every year. Of course, Mankins was a stable force through 2012.

2) To me, one major problem is at LT. Cannon-Stork-Connolly in the middle is probably OK if the other issues are solved.

3) The TE's are essential to our line play. Other than Fleming, we aren't getting a lot of quality blocking.

4) The somewhat undiscussed problem is the lack of success in short passes over the middle. Given that at least two of the teams were playing with substitute LB's, this makes little sense. The way the patriots have usually beaten pressure is to utilize short passes over the middle to Edelman, Gronk and Amendola. They just aren't happening. Can't anyone be trusted over the middle: Edelman, Amendola, Wright, LaFell?

5) Sometimes, Brady does have time. When Brady has time, he seems to have no confidence in his receivers on any pattern over 15 yards.

BOTTOM LINE
It is incomplete and misleading to suggest that if the OL could just do their job and give Brady plenty of time, everything would be fine. Of course, that's the case. It would be if Polo was our quarterback.

The OPEN question is why the patriots have not been able to adjust when the OL as the weak point of their offense. To me, the answer is lack of blocking by others, and lack of confidence in the receivers, especially over the middle. There are many answers to an aggressive pass rush. We haven't used any effectively, or almost not at all. For me, that is more troubling than anything.

Click to expand...

ATippett56 said:

Wendell and Connolly regressed under Dante's tutelage last season.

This is a talent issue and Devey belongs in the CFL not the NFL.

Click to expand...

Ahem. The CFL is not as bad as you seem to think it is.

RIpats88 said:

Am I the only one who thinks theyll figure it out? A full 10days to practice and get stork up to speed to start, get devey out of the lineup and theyll improve

Click to expand...

I think they can get better depending upon making the right moves the only question is how much. They have an exceptional track record in that regard but Scarnecchia is not there to make it happen and that makes it a big question mark. To a large degree their season depends upon it, we will see what happens?

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:

Wendell and Devey are talent black holes.

Click to expand...

I know it's fashionable to hate on Wendell, but it's hard to blame him for poor play. As far as I can tell, he hasn't played a snap since he left the game with injury in the first half of the game in Miami.

RIpats88 said:

Am I the only one who thinks theyll figure it out? A full 10days to practice and get stork up to speed to start, get devey out of the lineup and theyll improve

Click to expand...

How and where does this "10 days" aspect come into play?

They have one extra day than normal.

mgteich said:

1) We overstate the quality of past OL's. There are many on this board who have criticized almost every lineman, almost every year. Of course, Mankins was a stable force through 2012.

2) To me, one major problem is at LT. Cannon-Stork-Connolly in the middle is probably OK if the other issues are solved.

3) The TE's are essential to our line play. Other than Fleming, we aren't getting a lot of quality blocking.

4) The somewhat undiscussed problem is the lack of success in short passes over the middle. Given that at least two of the teams were playing with substitute LB's, this makes little sense. The way the patriots have usually beaten pressure is to utilize short passes over the middle to Edelman, Gronk and Amendola. They just aren't happening. Can't anyone be trusted over the middle: Edelman, Amendola, Wright, LaFell?

5) Sometimes, Brady does have time. When Brady has time, he seems to have no confidence in his receivers on any pattern over 15 yards.

BOTTOM LINE
It is incomplete and misleading to suggest that if the OL could just do their job and give Brady plenty of time, everything would be fine. Of course, that's the case. It would be if Polo was our quarterback.

The OPEN question is why the patriots have not been able to adjust when the OL as the weak point of their offense. To me, the answer is lack of blocking by others, and lack of confidence in the receivers, especially over the middle. There are many answers to an aggressive pass rush. We haven't used any effectively, or almost not at all. For me, that is more troubling than anything.

Click to expand...

Misleading? I disagree 100% with that characterization.
If you want to argue with the degree at which improved OL play will equal significantly improved passing success (and mean little to no real subsequent trickle down effect)? I can see some reasoning behind the argument of degree. However, I just don't see validity in the opinion that says 'much improved OL play, will not make a really big impact on the passing game'. IMHO it's obvious how dramatically the shoddy OL play is affecting Brady/the passing game, and how the trickle down effect from that is hurting the Patriots' entire road map to success. No, improved OL play is not a utopia waiting to materialize, but it a much much better place to be.

Stop me where I'm wrong here: When Brady is given a level of comfort/confidence to sit in the pocket to let plays develop (instead of sensing the pass must be rushed!), it is likely to mean more/better opportunities for completions for more yardage. When we see more yards it is likely we will see more first downs. When we see more first downs it is likely we will see more trips to the red zone. When we see more trips to the red zone it is likely we will see more scoring. When the opposing D's see more passing success, it is likelier we will see better opportunities for rushing success. When we see all of that, it is likely we will see our D on the field less. And, ultimately, even a modest uptick in all of these above listed trickle down items, it is likely to mean greater success in the W column.

Belechick is greasing the skids for Brady ala Dedslow back in 2001. Brady cannot take this beating he's enduring and last very much longer. In comes the hot shot Garrop, starts running around hitting everybody,using all his weapons, throwing picks and getting sacked BUT all the O linemen will run to help HIM up.

Watch. No way Cannon is suddenly moved to left guard after a college and pro career played on the right side of the line. Devey? This mutt shouldn't have gotten a chance to play third string college ball.Kline sitting out so THIS JAG gets a starting RG spot? Who even remotely likes this idea? Anybody?

Garrop comes in, Kline goes to LG, Stork begins his career as Garrop's center, Cannon moves back to RG and the young O line is rejuvenated. Brady is toast and I think HE knows it. NOBODY gives up a toreador sack and then turns his back on the QB like Solder did to Brady Sunday, leaving Brady on his azz. Krist, the goddamned REF had to help Brady up a couple of times.

Kraft doesn't give a shyt about us, neither does BB...they are in the money making business and to make that cake going forward they NEED a new face at QB for the next decade. They have made it clear they think Kid G is THAT guy.Brady has his money, he'll fetch a handsome price for some QB starved franchise that wants a HOF'er with some rubber left on the tires and the train'll keep on rollin'.

I hope I'm dead wrong but if age has taught me anything it's to realize it's not raining when someone is pizzing down my back...and that is what Kraft and Belechick are doing right now to our entire fanbase.

Joker said:

Belechick is greasing the skids for Brady ala Dedslow back in 2001. Brady cannot take this beating he's enduring and last very much longer. In comes the hot shot Garrop, starts running around hitting everybody,using all his weapons, throwing picks and getting sacked BUT all the O linemen will run to help HIM up.

Watch. No way Cannon is suddenly moved to left guard after a college and pro career played on the right side of the line. Devey? This mutt shouldn't have gotten a chance to play third string college ball.Kline sitting out so THIS JAG gets a starting RG spot? Who even remotely likes this idea? Anybody?

Garrop comes in, Kline goes to LG, Stork begins his career as Garrop's center, Cannon moves back to RG and the young O line is rejuvenated. Brady is toast and I think HE knows it. NOBODY gives up a toreador sack and then turns his back on the QB like Solder did to Brady Sunday, leaving Brady on his azz. Krist, the goddamned REF had to help Brady up a couple of times.

Kraft doesn't give a shyt about us, neither does BB...they are in the money making business and to make that cake going forward they NEED a new face at QB for the next decade. They have made it clear they think Kid G is THAT guy.Brady has his money, he'll fetch a handsome price for some QB starved franchise that wants a HOF'er with some rubber left on the tires and the train'll keep on rollin'.

I hope I'm dead wrong but if age has taught me anything it's to realize it's not raining when someone is pizzing down my back...and that is what Kraft and Belechick are doing right now to our entire fanbase.

Click to expand...

Strong words, Joker. Wow...

I hope that you aren't correct, of course.

I'm not as cynical as you are. I don't think it's intentional by Belichick or Kraft. I do, however, pretty much see it playing out according to your scenario. And, no doubt, Brady sees Belichick giving the extra-curricular PhD course in NFL defense to Garappolo just like back in 2000.

I just don't think you can get a consistently clean pocket in the 2014 NFL. The pass rushers are just ridiculous. Playing QB requires standing in the pocket and taking hits in a way that players are understandably unwilling/unable to do as they approach 40. Once a gunslinger gets the slightest fear, it's over. It's why teams can never surround a Marino or a Favre with receivers who can get open when they hit their late 30s and why the older HOF QBs spend so much time screaming at their receivers.

The Pats have used an arsenal of tricks to keep Brady clean over the years -- all the screens and draws and play action. But, defenses aren't stupid. They've seen all that film.

Crowd the line, take away the hot reads, pin your ears back rushing the QB. They know he's not going to escape the pocket.

Me too.
Tell me, Sup...after watching BB make drastic moves the past 14 years, don't you think there is ALWAYS an ulterior motive to everything he does?

I do. I've been a fan a long time and I think I've seen this before more than a few times from BB.It's not a question of why would BB trade Brady, it's why WOULDN'T he? We, as fans, factor in exactly 0% to his decision making.

Joker said:

Me too.
Tell me, Sup...after watching BB make drastic moves the past 14 years, don't you think there is ALWAYS an ulterior motive to everything he does?

I do. I've been a fan a long time and I think I've seen this before more than a few times from BB.It's not a question of why would BB trade Brady, it's why WOULDN'T he? We, as fans, factor in exactly 0% to his decision making.

Click to expand...

I think Brady still plays at a very high level, and is relatively cost efficient compared to most other NFL quarterbacks (not under a rookie pact). His ability to break down plays and formations likely makes up for any falloff that he is experiencing physically.

Obviously, it's certainly possible. I also think it's possible that they can just be experiencing problems at the offensive line position just as well, though.

Of course, as you point out--why in the hell Marcus Cannon was moved to the L side is beyond me. That is the million dollar question for sure. They could've just as easily thrown Kline in at LG and still had a line that had weaknesses, but were at least similar to the play of last season; especially when you take into account the fact that Vollmer came back this year.

hwc said:

Crowd the line, take away the hot reads, pin your ears back rushing the QB. They know he's not going to escape the pocket.

Click to expand...

I get what you're saying, but I can't imagine that things are that much different from any other week in any other season--aside from the poor play of the OL, of course.

Your above description is the way to beat any of the elite QBs these days, and has likely been the main gameplan against us for years.

may sound like some new age bullcrap, Sup, but...it's the body language I'm seeing. Brady's, his O line...you can SEE the huge disconnect. Joe Andruzzi would have punched Solder in the mouth when he got to the sideline for that crap he pulled after completely whiffing on a rush that buried Brady. He never offered to even help his QB up!!! That is extremely telling. I kept watching the shots of the Pats sideline whenever they panned the bench and I SAW an isolated and extremely unhappy Tom Brady.

This scene from True Romance frames the way I feel ....

Joker said:

Belechick is greasing the skids for Brady ala Dedslow back in 2001. Brady cannot take this beating he's enduring and last very much longer. In comes the hot shot Garrop, starts running around hitting everybody,using all his weapons, throwing picks and getting sacked BUT all the O linemen will run to help HIM up.

Watch. No way Cannon is suddenly moved to left guard after a college and pro career played on the right side of the line. Devey? This mutt shouldn't have gotten a chance to play third string college ball.Kline sitting out so THIS JAG gets a starting RG spot? Who even remotely likes this idea? Anybody?

Garrop comes in, Kline goes to LG, Stork begins his career as Garrop's center, Cannon moves back to RG and the young O line is rejuvenated. Brady is toast and I think HE knows it. NOBODY gives up a toreador sack and then turns his back on the QB like Solder did to Brady Sunday, leaving Brady on his azz. Krist, the goddamned REF had to help Brady up a couple of times.

Kraft doesn't give a shyt about us, neither does BB...they are in the money making business and to make that cake going forward they NEED a new face at QB for the next decade. They have made it clear they think Kid G is THAT guy.Brady has his money, he'll fetch a handsome price for some QB starved franchise that wants a HOF'er with some rubber left on the tires and the train'll keep on rollin'.

I hope I'm dead wrong but if age has taught me anything it's to realize it's not raining when someone is pizzing down my back...and that is what Kraft and Belechick are doing right now to our entire fanbase.

Click to expand...

Sounds like the David Carr career path to success:



"Run to the hills, Run for your life"

After a rough day at the office, I have to go home and scrub toilets:

Joker said:

Belechick is greasing the skids for Brady ala Dedslow back in 2001. Brady cannot take this beating he's enduring and last very much longer. In comes the hot shot Garrop, starts running around hitting everybody,using all his weapons, throwing picks and getting sacked BUT all the O linemen will run to help HIM up.

Watch. No way Cannon is suddenly moved to left guard after a college and pro career played on the right side of the line. Devey? This mutt shouldn't have gotten a chance to play third string college ball.Kline sitting out so THIS JAG gets a starting RG spot? Who even remotely likes this idea? Anybody?

Garrop comes in, Kline goes to LG, Stork begins his career as Garrop's center, Cannon moves back to RG and the young O line is rejuvenated. Brady is toast and I think HE knows it. NOBODY gives up a toreador sack and then turns his back on the QB like Solder did to Brady Sunday, leaving Brady on his azz. Krist, the goddamned REF had to help Brady up a couple of times.

Kraft doesn't give a shyt about us, neither does BB...they are in the money making business and to make that cake going forward they NEED a new face at QB for the next decade. They have made it clear they think Kid G is THAT guy.Brady has his money, he'll fetch a handsome price for some QB starved franchise that wants a HOF'er with some rubber left on the tires and the train'll keep on rollin'.

I hope I'm dead wrong but if age has taught me anything it's to realize it's not raining when someone is pizzing down my back...and that is what Kraft and Belechick are doing right now to our entire fanbase.

Click to expand...

I agree that BB's is a highly deliberate man. If reports are accurate he's probably the most methodical individual we will ever 'know'. When he makes a move, even small ones, it's definitely done with purpose.

But you think he's purposefully tenderizing Brady to hasten his entry into a post NFL job sports media company?? I think there is a far more plausible explanation than that (one we've all seen before); BB sees specific things in a player and, despite that player not yet playing up to snuff, believes that player will become consistent given time. I think another more plausible explanation is injury, grouping, work ethic. BB is certainly known for going with players that he feels 'gets it' over seemingly more talented players that he feels don't 'get it'.
Also keep in mind deliberate moves to hasten the demise of the rightfully beloved Brady would be extremely hard to keep under wraps. Brady, other players, coaches at various levels, that's a story that would make's it way to Ron Bogus and FSPN in a New York minute. Even a breath of this would be reported as fact in media circles.

I do believe we will see JAG eventually take the helm of the Patriots. Father time catches up to us all and my gut tells me it will catch up to TB prior to the end of JAG's contract. As much as TB has been a godsend to us Patriot fans, when time catches up to him I'm ok with BB's way (sentimentality, hurt feelings, loudmouth media lops, hysterical fans, all of you be damned -- I just want to win football games). However I hope it doesn't come to that. I hope Brady hangs it up on top/near the top versus when it's plainly obvious he's no longer what people think of as Tom Brady. Yet, either way, I definitely don't want him sent packing by way of tenderizing via the likes of some low IQ, thick skulled knucklehead with the word Raven or Jet on his Jersey. And, IMHO, BB doesn't want to see that either.

With that said, keep flying the flag of suspicion Joker! It's a much needed thing