mankins with tampa

Spiral said:

My theory on Mankins is that this is his last year. He will have played 10 years, and made enough money to comfortably retire to his ranch. He was not willing to renegotiate his contract with the Patriots because what mattered the most was his 2014 salary. He's willing to camp out in Tampa for four months to collect 100% of his 2014 salary, before he rides off into the sunset.

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Good for him. If that is his only priority, then he made the right decision.

And so did the Patriots. Getting a 4th rounder (what may be the FIRST pick of Day 3, btw) plus Tim Wright for a Left Guard who is counting down the days until his retirement is a STEAL.

The Patriots picked Lovie Smith's pocket. Mankins gets his 2014 money and rides off into the sunset. Everybody wins.

shmessy said:

In that case, the Patriots getting a 4th rounder (what may be the FIRST pick of Day 3, btw) plus Tim Wright for a Left Guard who is counting down the days until his retirement was a STEAL.

Belichick picked Lovie Smith's pocket.

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Aye, and defensive lineman are currently picking Tom Brady's... right up the A-gap.

KontradictioN said:

Aye, and defensive lineman are currently picking Tom Brady's... right up the A-gap.

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......... yeah, almost as much as last year.

2014: 3 Games; 7 Sacks (37.33 16 game season pace)
2013: 16 Games: 40 Sacks

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

shmessy said:

......... yeah, almost as much as last year.

2014: 3 Games; 7 Sacks (37.33 16 game season pace)
2013: 16 Games: 40 Sacks

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

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What's disconcerting is that many of these sacks are NOT up the middle pressure or obvious misplay between guard & tackle. Solder and to a lesser extent Vollmer have been beaten badly by outside speed rushes. Brady did get creamed up the middle but that was no different than last year or the 2007 SB game. What I did NOT expect this year is for a player like Solder to get beaten so often one-on-one. Something's amiss and it's not just talk show shouts of "Mankins ain't here".

shmessy said:

......... yeah, almost as much as last year.
2014: 3 Games; 7 Sacks (37.33 16 game season pace)
2013: 16 Games: 40 Sacks
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

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You're right. Sacks are the be-all, end-all measurement of an OL and the OL this year is much better than last year's.

Or you could take a look at more than that. This year, the coaching staff finally recognized that C and RG were an issue and made moves to correct the issue. Then, for no reason whatsoever, jettisoned it's best interior OL. What we've seen as a ripple effect: Solder suddenly struggling mightily with pressure continuing to come up the A and B gaps as well as on the edges due to the fact that Mankins is no longer there to bail them out. Why do you think Cannon looks as bad as he does as well? Mankins was the one thing holding that group together.

Further, you haven't seen in recent years (and this includes 2013), the team intentionally installing a run heavy game plan to save Brady from getting hit when he drops back and the pocket predictably collapses. We saw that in Week 2. In Week 3, we had to air it out because the OL couldn't open a hole for Ridley or Vereen to save their own lives, and the result was Brady getting up after obviously getting shaken up on a hit by Justin Tuck (courtesy of our new LG) and another hit where Brady got up shaking his head at Devey. You're more than welcome to tell me the last time Brady showed any sort of level of disgust at his OL.

Basically, the team downgraded at RG (as hard as that is to believe... but Devey is terrible), remained the same at C until Stork starts, and downgraded at LG. So, as a whole, the interior OL got worse and the biggest reason for it is the loss of Mankins. They'd still be bad with him there because, as he has shown since 2012 to anyone with a semblance of knowledge about OL play, he can only cover up for so much. But at least the Pats wouldn't have to restrict their passing offense so their 37 year old quarterback doesn't absorb nearly as much punishment.

PatsWickedPissah said:

What's disconcerting is that many of these sacks are NOT up the middle pressure or obvious misplay between guard & tackle. Solder and to a lesser extent Vollmer have been beaten badly by outside speed rushes. Brady did get creamed up the middle but that was no different than last year or the 2007 SB game. What I did NOT expect this year is for a player like Solder to get beaten so often one-on-one. Something's amiss and it's not just talk show shouts of "Mankins ain't here".

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Solder's play didn't slip as badly as it has all by itself. Mankins getting traded is getting Solder exposed now. But yes, Solder has never been the franchise LT that many here have made him out to be, unfortunately.

shmessy said:

The Patriots picked Lovie Smith's pocket. Mankins gets his 2014 money and rides off into the sunset. Everybody wins.

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Everybody except Brady.

KontradictioN said:

You're right. Sacks are the be-all, end-all measurement of an OL and the OL this year is much better than last year's.

Or you could take a look at more than that. This year, the coaching staff finally recognized that C and RG were an issue and made moves to correct the issue. Then, for no reason whatsoever, jettisoned it's best interior OL. What we've seen as a ripple effect: Solder suddenly struggling mightily with pressure continuing to come up the A and B gaps as well as on the edges due to the fact that Mankins is no longer there to bail them out. Why do you think Cannon looks as bad as he does as well? Mankins was the one thing holding that group together.

Solder's play didn't slip as badly as it has all by itself. Mankins getting traded is getting Solder exposed now. But yes, Solder has never been the franchise LT that many here have made him out to be, unfortunately.

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Mankins not being here has nothing to do with Solder's poor play. I don't know who you think Mankins is covering for because he didn't "cover" for himself last year. He was especially bad at the end of the year.
Also, Mankins is not playing well with Tampa. How did Tampa's offensive line look on Thursday night....was he covering for them too? If Mankins had stayed here this offensive line wouldn't be better and he certainly isn't worth an early 4th rounder, Wright, and almost $6 million in cap space.

RI Patriots fan said:

Mankins not being here has nothing to do with Solder's poor play. I don't know who you think Mankins is covering for because he didn't "cover" for himself last year. He was especially bad at the end of the year.
Also, Mankins is not playing well with Tampa. How did Tampa's offensive line look on Thursday night....was he covering for them too? If Mankins had stayed here this offensive line wouldn't be better and he certainly isn't worth an early 4th rounder, Wright, and almost $6 million in cap space.

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Devey is out there playing a lot of snaps and you make that statement? You can't be serious.

KontradictioN said:

You're right. Sacks are the be-all, end-all measurement of an OL and the OL this year is much better than last year's.

Or you could take a look at more than that. This year, the coaching staff finally recognized that C and RG were an issue and made moves to correct the issue. Then, for no reason whatsoever, jettisoned it's best interior OL. What we've seen as a ripple effect: Solder suddenly struggling mightily with pressure continuing to come up the A and B gaps as well as on the edges due to the fact that Mankins is no longer there to bail them out. Why do you think Cannon looks as bad as he does as well? Mankins was the one thing holding that group together.

Further, you haven't seen in recent years (and this includes 2013), the team intentionally installing a run heavy game plan to save Brady from getting hit when he drops back and the pocket predictably collapses. We saw that in Week 2. In Week 3, we had to air it out because the OL couldn't open a hole for Ridley or Vereen to save their own lives, and the result was Brady getting up after obviously getting shaken up on a hit by Justin Tuck (courtesy of our new LG) and another hit where Brady got up shaking his head at Devey. You're more than welcome to tell me the last time Brady showed any sort of level of disgust at his OL.

Basically, the team downgraded at RG (as hard as that is to believe... but Devey is terrible), remained the same at C until Stork starts, and downgraded at LG. So, as a whole, the interior OL got worse and the biggest reason for it is the loss of Mankins. They'd still be bad with him there because, as he has shown since 2012 to anyone with a semblance of knowledge about OL play, he can only cover up for so much. But at least the Pats wouldn't have to restrict their passing offense so their 37 year old quarterback doesn't absorb nearly as much punishment.


Solder's play didn't slip as badly as it has all by itself. Mankins getting traded is getting Solder exposed now. But yes, Solder has never been the franchise LT that many here have made him out to be, unfortunately.

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I have a weird position on this..I agree that center stayed the same and we downgraded at both guard positions. But, I still think trading Mankins for Wright and a 4th was the right move. He was a guard who clearly wasn't worth his contract and his own play was declining.

Would Mankins make a marketable difference? If Mankins were here would Solder be playing better? I lean towards no on both of these. We would improve a little, but not enough to justify that contract. I still believe we would have struggled mightily... IT'S NOT LIKE MANKINS IS LIGHTING IT UP IN TAMPA!

It seems Mankins is either injured/not playing up to expectations. Secondly, Mankins wasn't exactly great LG last year either. He blew 2-3 critical blocks in the AFCCG. Do you remember that 3rd and 3 where Knighton literally brushed him aside to sack Brady and stall the drive when we had a little momentum going.?

Mankins is gone and we made the right move IMO. Question is where do we go from here?

Devey was tried at LG, and was not a success.. Enter Cannon.

Devey was tried at RG, and was not a success. Enter Stork, and move Connolly back over to RG. Now the only newcomer is Stork and Cannon a veteran is playing at a new position.

Devey was always intended to be an interim depth player, and like it or not, he needed some snaps to create some experience, and to give him his chance. Apparently he did well enough in earlier practice to by pass Kline, and merit such a test. Of course he might have surprised everyone and earned a job.

When all about you are losing their heads, BB says to stay calm. The better is sure to come, if you had prepared for it, and BB did.

Cannon's play at LT in relief of Solder must have impressed BB with his potential at LG, IMHO. Besides he is quicker than Fleming, who I insist was drafted to be an excellent RG. No matter how long they delay it, Connolly is still 33and will need replacing at some point.

Meanwhile minimize the O-line disruption, and stage the changes, seems to be the operative modus operandi.

condon84 said:

Devey is out there playing a lot of snaps and you make that statement? You can't be serious.

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So Mankins played well last year....especially towards the end of the year? Has he been playing well this year? Why do you think that Mankins would make this a better offensive line? Because of how great the Tampa Bay line has looked this year or maybe because of how Mankins played in 2012?

RI Patriots fan said:

So Mankins played well last year....especially towards the end of the year? Has he been playing well this year? Why do you think that Mankins would make this a better offensive line? Because of how great the Tampa Bay line has looked this year or maybe because of how Mankins played in 2012?

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So let me make sure I understand your position, you think Devey is a better option than Mankins?

Boy, the coaches must really think that Josh Kline sucks, because I would have expected some kind of experiment with him seeing some extended reps by now.

He looked pretty decent last year down at BAL, but I'm assuming that Mankins playing LT when Solder was out may have helped him look much better than he actually is.

I'll say it again---I've never liked the move of Cannon to LG, and was rather surprised when that occurred.

RI Patriots fan said:

So Mankins played well last year....especially towards the end of the year? Has he been playing well this year? Why do you think that Mankins would make this a better offensive line? Because of how great the Tampa Bay line has looked this year or maybe because of how Mankins played in 2012?

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I think it's hard to argue that Mankins wouldn't make our current line much better for multiple reasons.

That said, you can also like the fact that they traded him for the future rewards as well--much like I do.

The problem is that, it helped to leave us with a fairly significant problem in the meantime. Like I mentioned in another thread, it kind of reminds me of the Seymour situation back in 2009. Most of us knew that it would eventually pay off and save money, but there's no doubt that it also hurt us as well.

condon84 said:

So let me make sure I understand your position, you think Devey is a better option than Mankins?

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How about this....you answer my questions and I'll answer your question.

supafly said:

I think it's hard to argue that Mankins wouldn't make our current line much better for multiple reasons.

That said, you can also like the fact that they traded him for the future rewards as well--much like I do.

The problem is that, it helped to leave us with a fairly significant problem in the meantime. Like I mentioned in another thread, it kind of reminds me of the Seymour situation back in 2009. Most of us knew that it would eventually pay off and save money, but there's no doubt that it also hurt us as well.

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I think it's hard to argue that he would make our current line better. We make this assumption that Mankins is currently a good guard. Why do we make that assumption?

Seymour was still a very good DT and was still playing at a relatively high level. Can the same be said of Mankins and his play last year (especially at the end of last year) and his play this year?

RI Patriots fan said:

I think it's hard to argue that he would make our current line better. We make this assumption that Mankins is currently a good guard. Why do we make that assumption?

Seymour was still a very good DT and was still playing at a relatively high level. Can the same be said of Mankins and his play last year (especially at the end of last year) and his play this year?

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While Mankins' play may not have been what it was in 2012 and beforehand, it's definitely still good enough that he'd help significantly at the moment. We're talking about a player who has made it to the probowl 6 times and who some think is a future hall of famer. Let's not act like he wouldn't be helping at the moment...

For one thing, we'd have an addition by subtraction thing going on, where both Cannon and Devey (the 2 weakest spots) would not be playing at their respective positions. To take it one step further, he was also making the play of Nate Solder at LT look much better, as you can see.

As I said, I do think that there are many good aspects of the trade such as future rewards in both cap savings and player/pick, but it definitely leaves a significantly large hole on the OL at the moment. I don't know if I think it's quite as much about Mankins himself, as I do the removal of both Devey and Cannon where they're at--as I stated.

supafly said:

While Mankins' play may not have been what it was in 2012 and beforehand, it's definitely still good enough that he'd help significantly at the moment. We're talking about a player who has made it to the probowl 6 times and who some think is a future hall of famer. Let's not act like he wouldn't be helping at the moment...

For one thing, we'd have an addition by subtraction thing going on, where both Cannon and Devey (the 2 weakest spots) would not be playing at their respective positions. To take it one step further, he was also making the play of Nate Solder at LT look much better, as you can see.

As I said, I do think that there are many good aspects of the trade such as future rewards in both cap savings and player/pick, but it definitely leaves a significantly large hole on the OL at the moment. I don't know if I think it's quite as much about Mankins himself, as I do the removal of both Devey and Cannon where they're at--as I stated.

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Those Pro Bowls are meaningless this year. What happened years ago means nothing today. The only thing that matters today is...today. How is Logan Mankins playing right now? Not 2 years ago....not 5 years ago. Right now. The answer is..... not good. The answer last year was....not good. The answer the last half of last year was....not good. The answer in the AFCCG was.....really bad.

Should we ignore his play this year and last year and judge Mankins' current value based upon what he did several years ago?

RI Patriots fan said:

Those Pro Bowls are meaningless this year. What happened years ago means nothing today. The only thing that matters today is...today. How is Logan Mankins playing right now? Not 2 years ago....not 5 years ago. Right now. The answer is..... not good. The answer last year was....not good. The answer the last half of last year was....not good. The answer in the AFCCG was.....really bad.

Should we ignore his play this year and last year and judge Mankins' current value based upon what he did several years ago?

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As I said, while his play may not be as good as his 2012 and beforehand days, it's practically silly to think that he isn't good enough to show significant improvement over Marcus Cannon (out of position) and Jordan Devey.

Obviously, Tampa Bay thought he was good enough to warrant a very high salary, along with a promising TE pick and a 4th round draft selection.

We may have a difference of opinions, but let's not make it out like he's suddenly a lousy player. That's not true at all.

Like I said, it's possible to still like the trade but feel that Mankins would be helping our cause at the moment--which is exactly how I feel. Anyone who honestly believes that we're a better OL without Logan Mankins is just flat out lying or bullshitting themselves.

but...a year or two down the line we SHOULD be much stronger at TWO positions because of this trade. It won't help Brady any this season, but maybe they are not looking to help him out this year anyway. Understand this, Brady took TWENTY HITS in the pocket versus the Dolphins. They essentially let their starting 37 year old immobile QB get ragdolled to start this season. It's gotten WORSE. WHY?