My Blueprint for the Offense

I agree with Luxus here. I think it's a little disingenuous to bring up players drafted two football generations ago like Adrian Klemm et Al. This is about the current team and there just hasn't been the same resources spent on the offense as on the defense. I don't think that's even debatable. I agree with Mayo that BB might have a blind spot when drafting offensive players and I do think it's worth bringing in an offensive scouting expert to help scout the offense, BB is never afraid to get second opinions as he did with Michael Lombardi last year. And I also agree with Mayo that the OL is as important as the skill position players. However, explosion comes from the skill positions and this offense needs more of that.

I'm not being critical of BB, Just the opposite and I'm not saying anything about his overall philosophy. All I'm saying is that for the last three years the greater emphasis was on the defense which was right. They've gone from being the worst in the NFL to one of the best. This is a good thing. All I'm saying is that the same care and attention should now be lavished on the offense. The offensive picks over the next few years could be critical. They will be the last offensive players Brady gets to play with and, presumably, the first that Jimmy G will play with.

manxman2601 said:

I'm not being critical of BB, Just the opposite and I'm not saying anything about his overall philosophy. All I'm saying is that for the last three years the greater emphasis was on the defense which was right. They've gone from being the worst in the NFL to one of the best. This is a good thing. All I'm saying is that the same care and attention should now be lavished on the offense. The offensive picks over the next few years could be critical. They will be the last offensive players Brady gets to play with and, presumably, the first that Jimmy G will play with.

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It all makes sense in general, too. During that period from 2007 - 2012 they had arguably the best overall offense in the game, although we know it wasn't well rounded enough and was able to get exposed by teams during the post-season. Nevertheless, the defense was old and needed to be replaced, and with the offense still performing at a high level it made perfect sense to focus on the defense.

Knock on wood, now that the defense is mostly there (you all have identified what would be nice additional pieces to have, but the majority of it is here it appears), it's the offense that got old/injured/arrested and it is in need of an overhaul. Curious to see if Stork and/or Fleming can make an impact on the line as the year progresses. Solder needs to turn things around; his regression is the most disconcerting thing. If just the OLine is fixed, it appears that this offense should be in reasonable shape. Would be nice to have an explosive skill position guy, too, but they didn't have that in 2001-2004 (except Dillon, if you can call him that). They can win with a competent line.

AzPatsFan said:

The WR corps was rebuilt last year and the talent for a O line makeover was acquired in the last draft...

...If the talent wasn't there then I might worry, but it is so I don't...

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This is where we disagree.

Hammer of Thor said:

It all makes sense in general, too. During that period from 2007 - 2012 they had arguably the best overall offense in the game, although we know it wasn't well rounded enough and was able to get exposed by teams during the post-season. Nevertheless, the defense was old and needed to be replaced, and with the offense still performing at a high level it made perfect sense to focus on the defense.

Knock on wood, now that the defense is mostly there (you all have identified what would be nice additional pieces to have, but the majority of it is here it appears), it's the offense that got old/injured/arrested and it is in need of an overhaul. Curious to see if Stork and/or Fleming can make an impact on the line as the year progresses. Solder needs to turn things around; his regression is the most disconcerting thing. If just the OLine is fixed, it appears that this offense should be in reasonable shape. Would be nice to have an explosive skill position guy, too, but they didn't have that in 2001-2004 (except Dillon, if you can call him that). They can win with a competent line.

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I agree that a new emphasis on the offense is likely to happen by default considering the strength of the defense as starters and even at depth in some positions. But there are two big provisos, namely McCourty and Revis. If neitherof them are resigned then those become the biggest holes on the team in my opinion.

manxman2601 said:

I agree with Luxus here. I think it's a little disingenuous to bring up players drafted two football generations ago like Adrian Klemm et Al. This is about the current team and there just hasn't been the same resources spent on the offense as on the defense. I don't think that's even debatable. I agree with Mayo that BB might have a blind spot when drafting offensive players and I do think it's worth bringing in an offensive scouting expert to help scout the offense, BB is never afraid to get second opinions as he did with Michael Lombardi last year. And I also agree with Mayo that the OL is as important as the skill position players. However, explosion comes from the skill positions and this offense needs more of that.

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manxman2601 said:

All I'm saying is that for the last three years the greater emphasis was on the defense which was right. All I'm saying is that the same care and attention should now be lavished on the offense. The offensive picks over the next few years could be critical.

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It's not intended to be disingenuous at all. Restrict it to recent years. Everyone pretty much accepts that BB had to reload the defense and spent a lot of capital on that side of the ball. The 2012 draft was pretty much all defense (Jones and Hightower in the 1st, Wilson in the 2nd, Bequette in the 3rd, Dennard in the 7th). But the 2011 draft was almost all offense (Solder in the 1st, Vereen in the 2nd, Ridley and Mallett in the 3rd, Cannon and TE Lee Smith in the 5th; Ras-I Dowling at #33 was the sole exception in the first 5 rounds). The 2010 draft included 2 TEs and a WR. And the 2013 and 2014 drafts weren't all defense by any means: 2013 draft included double-tapping the WR position, while 2014 draft included the highest QB drafted in BB's tenure and 3 OLs and a RB. Only 1 pick out of the first top 6 picks in 2014 was a defensive player.

It's not like BB is ignoring the offense. Some of the picks haven't worked out too well, and some are still too early to tell. I think that Stork and Fleming were a reasonably significant investment on the OL - maybe not 1st round picks, but not scrap fodder, either. Ridley and Vereen have been productive if not world beaters, Solder and Vollmer have anchored the OL, and Gronk and Hernandez revolutionized the TE position. Obviously, Hernandez' implosion was not foreseen.

Again, I am by no means advocating not spending on the offense. My favorite prospect in this draft is an offensive lineman (and I had Greg Robinson as my top rated prospect in last year's draft). I would be just as happy to go offense as defense in this draft, depending on the specific options available at each pick. I don't believe in reaching for the sake of reaching or in drafting to fill specific needs, but I'm happy to spend some serious draft capital to upgrade the talent level of the offense if the values are there. But I think it's a bit of a fallacy to say that BB has neglected the offense.

It all comes down to guys making plays, regardless of where they were drafted. Right now Julian Edelman is really or only guy on offense making plays. That's not enough. There has been inconsistent or inadequate production from guys ranging from 1st rounders (Solder) to day 2 (Dobson, Vereen) and 3 (Cannon), to UDFAs (Thompkins, Connolly, Devey). Whether we add talent in the 1st round or the 7th (like Edelman), we need guys to make some plays.

At this rate, the New England Patriots will need to draft a brand new offensive line.

Yeah, I thought that those O Line Picks were pretty lousy, and said so at the time.

I believe that Rumors of Nate "Universal" Solder's demise will prove to be exaggerated, however, despite a rough start: Growth rarely happens in a straight line, and Solder's been improving each Year.

ATippett56 said:

At this rate, the New England Patriots will need to draft a brand new offensive line.

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Off The Grid said:

Yeah, I thought that those O Line Picks were pretty lousy, and said so at the time.

I believe that Rumors of Nate "Universal" Solder's demise will prove to be exaggerated, however, despite a rough start: Growth rarely happens in a straight line, and Solder's been improving each Year.

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I don't see anything wrong with the Stork and Fleming picks so far, though they weren't the ones I had targeted. I don't think you tear up the line and start over. I think you keep tinkering with it until it gels. Look at the Bears and Steelers - horrible OLs for years, and now playing pretty well. Some of it was health, some of it player development, some of it replacement weak links and upgrading talent.

I think that center (as Grid has often said) is the key position on the line. The center makes all the line calls and is responsible for getting everyone in position. Some of the film breakdown shows that the Pats linemen weren't in good position on many plays. Someone posted on the main board (I can't find the link, but will keep looking) that historically Connolly has been considered weak in terms of his line calls. That could be a big factor in terms of the overall play of the line of true, and part of the reason why the line looked so much better with Stork in at center.

Tedy Bruschi said in his chat yesterday that Stork isn't ready, but I'm praying that he gets ready in a hurry and solidifies the center position. Get your C and your LT cset, and work out the rest - if Stork is set and the line calls are better than I think Solder will improve, and then I think you just tinker with the line and fine the combo that works best for right now. Assuming that Devey doesn't do a dramatic turnaround, the options would be:

Solder-Cannon-Stork-Connolly-Vollmer
Solder-Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer
Solder-Vollmer-Stork-Connolly-Cannon
Solder-Cannon-Stork-Fleming-Vollmer
Solder-Connolly-Stork-Fleming-Vollmer
Solder-Vollmer-Stork-Fleming-Cannon

Try to get Stork up to speed and solidify the line, then find the best combo that works, and let things settle down. Then you can figure out who needs to be upgraded for 2015.

mayoclinic said:

Try to get Stork up to speed and solidify the line, then find the best combo that works, and let things settle down. Then you can figure out who needs to be upgraded for 2015.

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Cannon and Connolly both will be unrestricted free agents in calendar year 2015. Devey should be crated up and shipped to the Arctic Circle in anticipation of a new expansion CFL team.

On the blueprint side of things here is mine after 3 games (very early) taking a look at the FA's for 2015:

FA
Offense: Getting rid of: Connelly and Amendola
Target: Carpenter and Maclin. Carpenter as #1 as IMO 1 talented payer can make a big difference on the interior OL and make the rest look better.
Defense: Not change a thing and try to keep our own i.e McCourty and Revis.

Draft:
One of 2 ways. Interior OL or DE/DT. I see this being the best way for us to squeeze the best out of brady. A solid OL or dominant D (preferably both). It's exactly what Cincy has built currently.

Too early for me to be looking at draft picks.

ATippett56 said:

Cannon and Connolly both will be unrestricted free agents in calendar year 2015.

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That has already been stated about 1000 times. Not sure what your point is. We'll know by draft time whether they are part of the long term equation or not. I personally suspect both will be on the team in 2015, but it's way too early to tell.

ATippett56 said:

Devey should be crated up and shipped to the Arctic Circle in anticipation of a new expansion CFL team.

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That solves nothing, and just makes the OL thinner. The team obviously sees something in Devey. They may decide they were mistaken, as they did with Zach Sudfeld, but just because he's overmatched as a starter right now doesn't mean he's unsalvageable as a player.

jsull87 said:

On the blueprint side of things here is mine after 3 games (very early) taking a look at the FA's for 2015:

FA
Offense: Getting rid of: Connelly and Amendola
Target: Carpenter and Maclin. Carpenter as #1 as IMO 1 talented payer can make a big difference on the interior OL and make the rest look better.
Defense: Not change a thing and try to keep our own i.e McCourty and Revis.

Draft:
One of 2 ways. Interior OL or DE/DT. I see this being the best way for us to squeeze the best out of brady. A solid OL or dominant D (preferably both). It's exactly what Cincy has built currently.

Too early for me to be looking at draft picks.

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I think it's a given that Amendola is gone unless things change dramatically. Not sure yet about who to look at as a replacement, but I generally would target a bigger split end.

Greg Bedard said yesterday that Connolly was the only guy on the line playing decently against the Raiders. He's a team captain, and he has versatility at 3 positions. I don't know what will happen with him, but I'm not ready to say that he isn't coming back next year on a lesser contract.

I liked Carpenter coming out in 2011 and had him pegged as a possible option for the Pats in round 2. Didn't expect him to go 1st round. My biggest concerns are (1) feasibility, as Seattle will probably keep him, (2) cost, and (3) he's another RT/G, and we already have 2 of those in Cannon and Fleming. Unless you think Vollmer is toast (possible) and needs replacing, or that Carpenter can be a stud LG, I'm not sure it makes sense.

I really feel like we should go OL early in the draft. As it is now Brady doesn't have time to let routes develop. He'd rather just go quickly to Edelman or Gronk, and who can blame him. If he goes through his progression he will get crushed. I would also throw to Edelman or Gronk if they have the smallest window to throw in, for who knows if anyone else will be open before the Defense is on to you? An upgrade of the OL will probably do more for our passing game than any receiver could. What point is there to have have a WR that can run really crisp posts, deep ins, outs and come back routes if Brady can't wait for them to develop?

With how Solder has locked so far I wouldn't mind us taking a tackle in the first round that we plug into guard for the first year(unless Solder really continues to crap the bed) and that we then put at LT if Solder doesn't improve and is worth a contract extension. Vollmer is also a question with his age and injuries.

Then a guard in the third round or so. Right now I see us needing atleast 2 new OL.

But it's hard to say right now. It will be much easier to say what we have in our OL by week 10. Hard to say now which such a new group and players at new positions.

Here's a thought. What about Solder at LG and then draft a LT? Solder is still a very good run blocker but struggles with speed around the edge. Some might think he's too tall but Kyle Long has done very well for the Bears at 6'6". It won't happen because Solder will likely want LT money and some team will probably give it to him but it's an interesting question to ponder.

manxman2601 said:

Here's a thought. What about Solder at LG and then draft a LT? Solder is still a very good run blocker but struggles with speed around the edge. Some might think he's too tall but Kyle Long has done very well for the Bears at 6'6". It won't happen because Solder will likely want LT money and some team will probably give it to him but it's an interesting question to ponder.

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That sort of came up in Reiss's mailbag he other day:

Q. The offensive line is obviously struggling and the Pats have been mixing combinations so far this year. Do you think it's possible they move Nate Solder to left guard and Marcus Cannon to left tackle? Cannon seems to be more comfortable at tackle and Solder is a great run blocker, but gets burned off the edge constantly. Would the team ever consider this even though they just picked up his team option for 2015. -- Jonathan (Waltham, Massachusetts)

A. Jonathan, I don't think the option as part of the contract would have anything to do with their decision. I think anything is on the table because what we saw Sunday against the Raiders was not acceptable from the entire offensive line. You can include every single player in the mix because they all had Football 101-type breakdowns that, to be frank, made it look like they hardly practiced leading into the game. I think you have to give some credit to the Raiders, but I'd also say that I believe the players can do better than that. I'd be surprised if it's Solder moving to guard, but I don't think we can dismiss anything at this point.

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http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story...3/new-england-patriots-mailbag-no-joy-victory

I pretty much agree with Reiss on this one: I wouldn't rule anything out, but it seems unlikely. I think that the Pats would try and find other combos that worked first, before moving Solder around.

Marinlik said:

I really feel like we should go OL early in the draft. As it is now Brady doesn't have time to let routes develop. He'd rather just go quickly to Edelman or Gronk, and who can blame him. If he goes through his progression he will get crushed. I would also throw to Edelman or Gronk if they have the smallest window to throw in, for who knows if anyone else will be open before the Defense is on to you? An upgrade of the OL will probably do more for our passing game than any receiver could. What point is there to have have a WR that can run really crisp posts, deep ins, outs and come back routes if Brady can't wait for them to develop?

With how Solder has locked so far I wouldn't mind us taking a tackle in the first round that we plug into guard for the first year(unless Solder really continues to crap the bed) and that we then put at LT if Solder doesn't improve and is worth a contract extension. Vollmer is also a question with his age and injuries.

Then a guard in the third round or so. Right now I see us needing atleast 2 new OL.

But it's hard to say right now. It will be much easier to say what we have in our OL by week 10. Hard to say now which such a new group and players at new positions.

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In terms of guys who could fit your description who I would consider in the 1st round:

- Brandon Scherff, Iowa. No brainer, top rated guy on my board. But very unlikely to be available.
- La'el Collins, LSU.
- Cameron Erving, Florida St. I love his athleticism, upside and versatility, but he's still a bit raw.
- Ereck Flowers, OL, Miami.
- Spencer Drango, OL, Baylor. Not sure he's a 1st round talent, but he fits the model.

I don't tend to think in terms of drafting a specific position, but all of these guys would get serious consideration for me, depending on who else is on the board.

mayoclinic said:

That sort of came up in Reiss's mailbag he other day:



http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story...3/new-england-patriots-mailbag-no-joy-victory

I pretty much agree with Reiss on this one: I wouldn't rule anything out, but it seems unlikely. I think that the Pats would try and find other combos that worked first, before moving Solder around.

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I posted this line in the man forum:

Vollmer-Solder-Stork-connolly-Cannon/Fleming

I actually really like that and I think Ridley/Vereen would love running to the left.

I agree with Reiss though, I don't see it happening.

manxman2601 said:

I posted this line in the man forum:

Vollmer-Solder-Stork-connolly-Cannon/Fleming

I actually really like that and I think Ridley/Vereen would love running to the left.

I agree with Reiss though, I don't see it happening.

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I like it in some ways, too, and it wouldn't shock me to see them play around with it in practice. The problem is, it causes a lot of positional upheaval, and the OL needs to settle down.

I think that there are (at least) 2 basic problems with the OL:

1. A cohesion problem, as Scar and Matt Light discussed.
2. A developmental problem, getting youngsters up to speed.

It's hard to solve #1 when #2 is a moving target.

It's also possible that there's a 3rd problem, regression by Solder and Vollmer. Bedard said that Vollmer moved like a 50-year old man (I'm 53, and I'm painfully aware of what that's like). Solder has looked terrible at times. What that's because of the first 2 problems or something else remains to be seen.

I hate to spend a first on a guard. We've won a few Super Bowls with some non-descript ones. And so have other teams. I'd rather sign a reasonably priced vet and draft a mid-rounder.

Love Gronk and Amendola. Would like to surround them with a couple of explosive athletes.
What do you guys think of Melvin Gordon in the first? He's a superior athlete and was a better RB at Wisconsin than James White. I want more than we're getting out of Ridley and Vereen. Let em walk. Blount saved us last year. I normally prefer bigger backs and would have been tempted by Carlos Hyde if he fell a couple more picks in the draft. Brady with the play-action threat is our best offense IMO.