Things About to Get Ugly in Baltimore

Tunescribe said:

But he's low man on the totem pole. He took a stand with his boss and was overruled. What's he supposed to do otherwise? Quit over it?

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That's what he should have done. It's not like he'd be struggling financially. He should have held his ground for what was right.

RelocatedPatFan said:

I would say it's been ugly, it's just that we are now lifting up the hood and taking a look at the engine. And this probably falls into the category of better them than us as I imagine there's plenty of things that go on behind the scenes that we (in general) don't want to hear.

That last statement applies to many business and certainly 99.98% of all politicians. I feel confident that Kraft holds things to a higher standard than most, but still I just prefer to see the final product.

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Oh but I do. This situation has left a bitter taste in my mouth towards the owners of the NFL. If Kraft covered up some things I want him to be held accountable for it. I want every owner to be held accountable.

NFL's message to youth: If you're a wealthy public figure who does a lot of charity work and contributes to the community and is the face of an organization, you can beat your spouse and get away with it.

The saddest part is that there's some truth to that.

robertweathers said:

...and she married him anyway, apologized for her role in the incident and begged Goody and Ravens mgt not to discipline him to the point of jeopardizing his livelihood. Ugh.

I sure hope someone is keeping a watchful eye on her and or if this happens again, she'll have the strength to break away, put his butt in jail and take him for everything he has.

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Once married, she can not be compelled to testify against him. Although I don't see where her testimony would be necessary with that damming video.

Mike the Brit said:

I've got to disagree. I really liked the time I spent in Baltimore.

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Not to be snarky, but how far did you wander from the Harbor?

Wheelman said:

That's what he should have done. It's not like he'd be struggling financially. He should have held his ground for what was right.

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Harbaugh has three years left on his contract. You're not just asking him to quit his job, but essentially to quit coaching football.

With all of the blame to go around in this situation, I'm not inclined to heap too much of it at the feet of the one person who was, by all accounts, trying to get everybody else to show some conscience.

Nikolai said:

Not to be snarky, but how far did you wander from the Harbor?

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Oh yes the harbour was great (I stayed with someone just near where they filmed Homicide: Life on the Street) but he gave me the tour. We had crab cakes in Lexington Market and saw the Walters, as well as driving through some places that, yes, I wouldn't have wanted to be walking down the street alone at dusk.

Wheelman said:

Oh but I do. This situation has left a bitter taste in my mouth towards the owners of the NFL. If Kraft covered up some things I want him to be held accountable for it. I want every owner to be held accountable.

NFL's message to youth: If you're a wealthy public figure who does a lot of charity work and contributes to the community and is the face of an organization, you can beat your spouse and get away with it.

The saddest part is that there's some truth to that.

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I agree. No crime should go unpunished.

The tone was more that I'm sure there's lots of warts (not all being crimes per se, but highly grey moral grounds that most people would be offended by, like language, work environments that wouldn't be put up with in public sector, knowing what might go on in private lives, ...)

patchick said:

Harbaugh has three years left on his contract. You're not just asking him to quit his job, but essentially to quit coaching football.

With all of the blame to go around in this situation, I'm not inclined to heap too much of it at the feet of the one person who was, by all accounts, trying to get everybody else to show some conscience.

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If he can't sign with another team or have his contract voided after blowing the whistle on the owners/execs of the Ravens then I suppose you would have a point.

A cover up such as this should cost them a first round pick and a 500K fine to all those involved.

The NFL penalty for spousal abuse at the time of the incident was at most 2 games, the penalty received by Rice. The team has increased that the penalty for first time offenders to 6 games. Since the 2 games was only precedent, Goodell probably is "allowed" to increase the penalty after getting additional information. Of course, that action is under appeal by the union. It seems most unlikely that Rice's penalty, after appeal, will be more than 6 games, although I suppose the full season is of course possible. Then Rice can be put under triple jeopardy when the rules are changed again in the next off-season.

If the NFL had every single tape and everyone told everything that they knew, then the policy of the NFL was still for a penalty of 2 games. NO ONE has posted the name of ANY players given higher penalties for spousal abuse (first incidence or even more).

If Harbough was not transparent enough with his bosses, then shame on him. Other than that, this is a PR issue for BALT. The team can choose to punish him as they wish, including firing him. In any case, Rice will likely be free to play for another team in the second half of this season, or next season at the latest.

BTW, does it matter to anyone what Rice's wife wants? Obviously, the legal penalties have specified penalties and they will be enforced. But, when we talk about action by the team and the sponsors, should it matter what Rice's wife thinks and says through her attorneys or in public or private statements?

everlong said:

A cover up such as this should cost them a first round pick and a 500K fine to all those involved.

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Agreed, except that the Commish, who's responsible for meting out said sanctions, is a "co-coverupper." Pigs will fly before any discipline is given to the Ravens.

I have to believe that who ever is commissioner at the end of this debacle will have to punish the Ravens to maintain any credibility.

That franchise is a pile of ****. Screw them

mgteich said:

The NFL penalty for spousal abuse at the time of the incident was at most 2 games, the penalty received by Rice. The team has increased that the penalty for first time offenders to 6 games. Since the 2 games was only precedent, Goodell probably is "allowed" to increase the penalty after getting additional information. Of course, that action is under appeal by the union. It seems most unlikely that Rice's penalty, after appeal, will be more than 6 games, although I suppose the full season is of course possible. Then Rice can be put under triple jeopardy when the rules are changed again in the next off-season.

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I'll make the call and say that RR is playing in the NFL next year for someone.

mgteich said:

If the NFL had every single tape and everyone told everything that they knew, then the policy of the NFL was still for a penalty of 2 games. NO ONE has posted the name of ANY players given higher penalties for spousal abuse (first incidence or even more).

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mgteich said:

If Harbough was not transparent enough with his bosses, then shame on him. Other than that, this is a PR issue for BALT. The team can choose to punish him as they wish, including firing him. In any case, Rice will likely be free to play for another team in the second half of this season, or next season at the latest.

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Harbaugh wanted him gone. The Ravens released him.

mgteich said:

BTW, does it matter to anyone what Rice's wife wants? Obviously, the legal penalties have specified penalties and they will be enforced. But, when we talk about action by the team and the sponsors, should it matter what Rice's wife thinks and says through her attorneys or in public or private statements?

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You just said a mouthful. Right or wrong, Mrs Rice controls her destiny. She has the choice to to make herself a victim publicly or remain silent. Up till now, she has been very docile during this whole process. If she decides to become vocal and make accusations that her husband, the league and the Ravens coerced/bribed her to remain quiet, the whole thing will explode.

mgteich said:

BTW, does it matter to anyone what Rice's wife wants? Obviously, the legal penalties have specified penalties and they will be enforced. But, when we talk about action by the team and the sponsors, should it matter what Rice's wife thinks and says through her attorneys or in public or private statements?

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That's easy: No. It's well-established that you can't let victims of domestic abuse determine punishments for their attackers. Too many corrupting influences: fear, love, shame, economic dependency, being convinced by the abuser that they "deserved it," etc.

In the Jonathan Dwyer case, Dwyer's wife assured the police that her husband had nothing to do with her broken nose and everything was just fine. But according to the new allegations, he had a gun and had threatened to kill himself in front of their children unless she lied to the police and sent them away.

Is it possible that Ray Rice had never before laid a hand on a woman before a single alcohol-fueled moment he deeply regrets? Absolutely. Do I believe that must be true because his victim said so? Nope.

patchick said:

That's easy: No. It's well-established that you can't let victims of domestic abuse determine punishments for their attackers. Too many corrupting influences: fear, love, shame, economic dependency, being convinced by the abuser that they "deserved it," etc.

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Every one of those is, of course, also a reason why these accusations are often never made in the first place.

patchick said:

Is it possible that Ray Rice had never before laid a hand on a woman before a single alcohol-fueled moment he deeply regrets? Absolutely. Do I believe that must be true because his victim said so? Nope.

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I would love to give the guy some truth serum and ask him exactly this question to see if it is an isolated incident or there is a history.

For now, AFAIK, there is no solid evidence of any history. In fact, AFAIK, the guy has always been a model citizen going above and beyond the call of duty with reagrds to involvement in the community. Also AFAIK the only evidence of prior abuse is circumstantial; i.e. the argument that no one goes from zero to right hook at point blank range. It's a strong argument, albeit not one that would hold up in a court of law if we are trying to determine his history prior to this casino assault.

Ivan said:

Sup, he knocked her out cold for an extended period of time. Concussions like that most certainly fall under the category of "serious and permanent bodily harm. If a prosecutor doesn't deem that worthy of a jail sentence i have no idea what it would take to get them to charge it, short of a dead body. And if anything his behavior after knocking her out demonstrated such a shocking lack of concern or conscience that I have to believe he's done it before. Any normal person would have been on their knees trying to help her an get help, he's standing there like she's an inconvenience.

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I'm simply pointing out the difference in the laws between 3rd degree aggravated assault and 2nd degree aggravated assault, and why people hit their wives/girlfriends all the time and are very rarely sentenced to jail on their first offense.

What Ray Rice did does NOT usually constitute "permanent and serious bodily injury on a first offense," which is likely why the New Jersey prosecutor did not pursue those charges. Had she claimed some kind of permanent injury as much as a kink in her neck, things may have been different. As we know, she did not.

Whether or not he demonstrated a lack of concern or not is absolutely 100% irrelevant to what the New Jersey state laws are, which is why I wrapped up my comment by saying that they should toughen up their stance. Unfortunately, it's unlikely to happen any time soon in my opinion. There are issues like DUIs and domestic violence issues that I have a very hard time understanding, in terms of the leniency that our country tends to give in the CJ system.

Ivan said:

I agree, I thought the Ravens defense looked really tough against Pittsburgh, and while I have never been a big fan of Flacco i think they have enough to win their division if Cincy falter , or get a WC if they don't.

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Yeah--speaking in a football sense only, I absolutely agree.

I can't see any reason in the world why this Ray Rice controversy would automatically disqualify the Ravens from competing for the rest of the season, like some have suggested.

Ugh so I think the scrutiny here is in the wrong place, the DA should be in the hot seat and isn't. But really I'm not sure I care at all, I didn't watch football last week as my one day of protest and my Sundays going forward won't be prioritized by football as they once were but I kind of don't really care about any of this. It doesn't affect me, my life or my financial postion. I know that's not very nice but there are much larger problems in the world that should be news, how about all the vets that can't get help, our ****ty education system, ISIS, Iran, DPRK, oppression in the world, the number of politicians that have been arrested for various things, it goes on, the NFL and RR are insignificant.