The discussion has changed from Wes v Amendola to Wes v Jules

Rob0729 said:

I understand he is more than just a slot receiver and plays outside a lot. But he still last year lined up in the slot more than outside. But the point is he replaced Welker as Brady's goto guy.

Click to expand...

I'm almost positive that that's not true. I'm not willing to go back and chart it out for all 18 games last season, but I'm pretty sure that if I did, the split would look similar to what we've seen so far this year.

BradyFTW! said:

I'm almost positive that that's not true. I'm not willing to go back and chart it out for all 18 games last season, but I'm pretty sure that if I did, the split would look similar to what we've seen so far this year.

Click to expand...

I thought the stats was that he did about 40% of the time outside last year.

Julian Edelman is a better player than Wes Welker. Yes, you read that correctly.

Rob0729 said:

Welker will definitely get into the Patriots HOF, but since the fans vote on it, I wouldn't bet on him being a first ballot HOF.

Click to expand...

Definitely not a scientific poll, but I started a poll thread last year about whether or not Patriot fans wanted Wes in the Patriot Hall of Fame (or to even retire as a Patriot) and it was an overwhelming NO. Overwhelming.

I say Wes can try to get into Denver's Hall of Fame. You don't go to the enemy at a critical time in team history and then come waltzing back years later for your red jacket, sorry.

Wes can enjoy his six million and his ducks thrown into triple coverage. I don't want to see him in the Razor again unless it's for a beat down

PATS16N0 said:

Definitely not a scientific poll, but I started a poll thread last year about whether or not Patriot fans wanted Wes in the Patriot Hall of Fame (or to even retire as a Patriot) and it was an overwhelming NO. Overwhelming.

I say Wes can try to get into Denver's Hall of Fame. You don't go to the enemy at a critical time in team history and then come waltzing back years later for your red jacket, sorry.

Wes can enjoy his six million and his ducks thrown into triple coverage. I don't want to see him in the Razor again unless it's for a beat down

Click to expand...

Six years from now (the earliest he can get in) I bet the sentiment is different.

Rob0729 said:

I thought the stats was that he did about 40% of the time outside last year.

Click to expand...

According to PFF (and snap counts are one of the few things I trust them for), Edelman ran 49.5% of his routes from the slot last year. 76.6% when Amendola was sidelined, and therefore most of his snaps must have been outside the slot when Amendola was available. Side note: this isn't exactly what I was counting for Edelman in my previous post (PFF is counting passing routes, I counted snaps regardless of whether they were a run or pass).

So I think there's a couple of important things to keep in mind, here. 1) Most receivers run a non-trivial percentage of their snaps from the slot, even guys who you would never consider slot receivers. The same PFF article states that Dobson ran 15.9% of his routes out of the slot, and he's by far the most definitive outside-the-numbers-definitely-not-a-slot-receiver we have.

2) When Edelman was in the slot last year, it was largely out of of necessity. Amendola was clearly the slot guy when available (same as this year), but then he got hurt. Since the imprisonment of Hernandez (who himself took a ton of snaps from the slot) effectively killed the 2TE offense, the Patriots ended up running a ton of 3WR, with their top choice of slot receiver being gone for a signficant chunk of the season. Add in the fact that Boyce (who took most of his few snaps from the slot) and Gronk also went down, and the Pats were left in a situation where they had to run a lot of 3WR, it was vital that the slot receiver be a guy that Brady trusted, and Edelman was the only player left healthy on the roster who could handle the job. When Edelman was running routes out of the slot (which, again, was less than half of the time), it was pretty much a function of necessity since all the other guys that could do it were injured or in prison.

And on top of all of that, the eye test just tells the story, IMO. He's a lot more "outside WR who is capable of playing in the slot as needed" than the reverse. And generally speaking, any sub-6-foot receiver who lacks burner speed can be characterized as such, so that's not much of a statement on anything, really, except the fact that he's kinda short.

Marinlik said:

900 yards and 12 yards a catch is not really the Law Firm of wide receivers.

Lloyd really gets much more crap than he should. I think a lot of it comes from people who, for no real reason at all, thought that he would be the next Moss, but then got mad when he was in fact not Moss. But yeah. I would have liked him to be more physical.

Click to expand...

I think Lloyd got crap, rightly so, based on the visual evaluation of individual plays ( over and over ) where he laid down or ran out bounds earlier than necessary, but mostly just left his feet on every single catch. Generally, the stats don't capture that, so if you looked at his season stats, you say ok-he contributed, but... As bruins29 posted right after you....

Somebody did a thorough breakdown of Lloyds performance here using metrics and it showed that given the amounts of targets Loyd got combined with his YAC and perhaps one other thing that while his production (on paper) was good - the truth was the opposite.[/quote ]

That was the rigorous proof that what everyone's eyes were telling them was true, and the summary stats were 'nice on paper'.

Click to expand...

So while he did contribute, it wasn't how we needed him to contribute to go to next level. Unfortunately we haven't found 'that guy' (or haven't developed our rooks into that guy) yet either.

BradyFTW! said:

According to PFF (and snap counts are one of the few things I trust them for), Edelman ran 49.5% of his routes from the slot last year. 76.6% when Amendola was sidelined, and therefore most of his snaps must have been outside the slot when Amendola was available. Side note: this isn't exactly what I was counting for Edelman in my previous post (PFF is counting passing routes, I counted snaps regardless of whether they were a run or pass).

So I think there's a couple of important things to keep in mind, here. 1) Most receivers run a non-trivial percentage of their snaps from the slot, even guys who you would never consider slot receivers. The same PFF article states that Dobson ran 15.9% of his routes out of the slot, and he's by far the most definitive outside-the-numbers-definitely-not-a-slot-receiver we have.

2) When Edelman was in the slot last year, it was largely out of of necessity. Amendola was clearly the slot guy when available (same as this year), but then he got hurt. Since the imprisonment of Hernandez (who himself took a ton of snaps from the slot) effectively killed the 2TE offense, the Patriots ended up running a ton of 3WR, with their top choice of slot receiver being gone for a signficant chunk of the season. Add in the fact that Boyce (who took most of his few snaps from the slot) and Gronk also went down, and the Pats were left in a situation where they had to run a lot of 3WR, it was vital that the slot receiver be a guy that Brady trusted, and Edelman was the only player left healthy on the roster who could handle the job. When Edelman was running routes out of the slot (which, again, was less than half of the time), it was pretty much a function of necessity since all the other guys that could do it were injured or in prison.

And on top of all of that, the eye test just tells the story, IMO. He's a lot more "outside WR who is capable of playing in the slot as needed" than the reverse. And generally speaking, any sub-6-foot receiver who lacks burner speed can be characterized as such, so that's not much of a statement on anything, really, except the fact that he's kinda short.

Click to expand...

I stand corrected if PFF info is correct which no matter how bad they are at collecting info that they should at least know how to tell where a WR lines up.

Rob0729 said:

I stand corrected if PFF info is correct which no matter how bad they are at collecting info that they should at least know how to tell where a WR lines up.

Click to expand...

That's pretty much my stance on PFF, too. I trust them to know who's on the field and where they're lined up... and that's it.

Rob0729 said:

Huh?!? Buoniconti was 28 when he left the Pats for Miami and was a two time Pro Bowler in Miami. He was in his prime. Welker was 32 when he left and clearly on the decline. Welker is still a good receiver (assuming he is not what he was post concussion last year), but he is just good.

Although some of the people who took the club side may go overboard to trash Welker, there are also people who still hate the trade who overstate what Welker is now.

Click to expand...

Sorry Rob, the paralells are not an "exact" match. Most of the kids here have never even heard the name Nick Buoniconti. I"ll try to keep my comparisons to yesterdays news in the future.

I guess I should let the "Slingin' Sammy Baugh" , "Galloping Ghost", "Four Horsemen" references die a peaceful death.

Edelman is a much better player than Welker, period. He is better in every facet of the game except he doesn't have a "jerk" route in his arsonal, for some reason. When Edelman touches the ball, he scares you with his elusiveness. Edelman has actual athletic ability. He can stop and start on the dime. He has decent speed. Welker's a slow, stiff, career #3 receiver that Belichick made into a #1 with his system.

Has anyone seen Cole Beasley in Dallas? He can do everything Welker can do - every single route - and he's a little faster. Wes Welker is not special. His biggest strength is that he's short.

If I were Welker, I would consider this thread a tribute to all he did while he was a Patriot since he, as a 33-year old, is being compared to a 28-year old Edelman. I think that Welker's success with the Patriots led to Edelman not getting a better offer in free agency than the Patriots. Glad that Welker was with the Patriots. Now glad that Edelman is now on the Patriots.