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Discuss the Offense (Week 3)


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I have but one statement to clarify. I did not say our goal is "to be" a passing team. I don't believe that. I like the balance. HOWEVER, as long as Tom Brady is the quarterback of the patriots, we "ARE" a passing team. That we will be more balanced, or sometimes emphasize the run for a whole game, does NOT change the fact that we ARE passing team.

While I agree that we should be a passing team while Brady is still with us, I can't help but wonder if we are seeing the first steps into the endgame Belichick has planned for Brady in a few years. Moving slowly away from an air offense to put more emphasis on the running game/play action combined with extraordinary defense.

Just to be clear, I fully expect Brady to play at least another 2-3 years.
 
While I agree that we should be a passing team while Brady is still with us, I can't help but wonder if we are seeing the first steps into the endgame Belichick has planned for Brady in a few years. Moving slowly away from an air offense to put more emphasis on the running game/play action combined with extraordinary defense.

Just to be clear, I fully expect Brady to play at least another 2-3 years.
Belichick is NOT changing the team for the time when Brady is gone.

We were a top 10 running game last year. The passing game is MORE effective when the running game is working well. I would note that a major change happened a couple of years ago. We decided to have a fullback as part of our offense. The team has 5 WR's on the roster, one on suspension and one on the Practice Squad. We have discussed them all as being part of our top 5 passing game.

If anything, Belichick has done little to support the running game. We have 2 players in their contract years, and a special teamer who gets a rep or two once in awhile. We also have a questionable (well, a to be proven) draft choice who is not good enough to be active. To me, that is not the mark of a team that is focused on the running game.
 
You know for all the heat Amendola gets for his first two games this season, Shane Vereen hasn't done much either hopefully it improves cause he's a big key guy if Pats expect to go far this season
 
You know for all the heat Amendola gets for his first two games this season, Shane Vereen hasn't done much either hopefully it improves cause he's a big key guy if Pats expect to go far this season
I'm sure that Josh and Belichick know how well Vereen and Amendola were doing their jobs this past Sunday, and will make any needed corrections.
 
I'm also interested in how going JUMBO limits their offensive sets and whether or not they can go fast break using that set of packages. If I'm not mistaken it is essentially a two TE package with an extra OL, so how does that impact the receiving packages they like to use. i would expect production from their move TE and 3rd and 4th WR's to suffer if they go big more often.

BB addresses some of your questions:

1975 was the year Belichick entered the NFL with the Baltimore Colts. The modern-day Colts used an unbalanced line often against the Eagles on Monday night while the Patriots – featuring Cameron Fleming – have used it frequently in their first two games as they look to bolster the protection in front of Tom Brady while also strengthening the running game.

That’s all the daylight Belichick needed to begin his lecture.

I’€™d say the main issue you get into would just be the commitment you make to it,” Belichick began. “Putting an offensive lineman in for a tight end, I would say you’€™re going to get less of a defensive adjustment, normally. I would say you’€™d get less of a defensive adjustment because the spacing is still the same, it’€™s just who is that guy? It’€™s a lineman instead of a tight end, but if it was a blocking tight end or lineman, how much difference is there? I’€™d say there’€™s a smaller degree of grade of adjustment for the defense.


Once you flip a lineman over, now you’€™ve totally changed the defensive spacing. What was a three-man surface is now a four-man surface. What was now a three-man surface is now a two-man surface. That creates some fundamental blocking angles potentially for the offense. I’€™d say that there’€™s a lot more involved in that. The issues you get into offensively are things like protections where, here’€™s our rule on protections but now we’€™re in a different look so how do those rules change, how do our assignments change?

I’€™d say normally you’€™d have to simplify your protections quite a bit rather than try to run them all from an unbalanced line. I’€™m not saying you couldn’€™t do it, but it would take a lot of work, I would think. The same thing defensively, once they unbalance, then you have to decide how you want to handle the ‘€“ normally, say you have three guys to one side of the center and two guys to the other side, but the two guys to the other side are ineligible. Now you put a guard and tight end on the two-man surface and then you get three offensive linemen on the three-man side, it changes your passing strength. It changes the surface that you have to defend defensively and it changes the location.

“Normally that two-man side is ineligible so now you’€™ve kind of flipped that around so there are some things you have to handle defensively. But I think it certainly limits you some offensively. Some of your weakside runs that you were running behind a tackle, now you’€™re running behind a tight end, so you have to know where there defense is going to be when you call some of those plays, which gets again, a little bit more involved. I think it’€™s hard to be in an unbalanced line and just run one or two plays because you don’€™t know if the defense is going to move over or not move over, rotate away from the formation passing strength, rotate to it.

You know, there’€™s too much uncertainty. But, if you have a number of plays then no matter what they do then theoretically, just like everything else in your offense, you can, ‘€˜If they do this, we do that. If they do that, we do this.’€™ So, you need some kind of volume to be able to handle that unless you just want to run one or two things as a changeup just to kind of make the defense work on it. I don’€™t want to say it’€™s a whole different offense but it definitely presents some different problems for you. In order to be good at it, you would have to commit a decent amount of time and scheme to it so that if the defense does this, we have that advantage. If they don’€™t, rather than if we go over and, ‘€˜Here’€™s what we think they’€™re going to do but, oh, they didn’€™t do it, now we’€™re stuck.’€™ When you’€™re in that kind of situation it’€™s kind of not worth it.”

Does Belichick feel the unbalanced line is primarily used in option football?

“Again, in the running game it’€™s much easier to handle in the running game, particularly if you check the play. So if they move over, then we can come back here. If they don’€™t move over, then we have the advantage to the overload side and we can go that way. I’€™d say that’€™s a lot easier. Once you get into the passing game and a lot of protections and ‘€˜Who is the linebacker?’€™ when you’€™re on the two-man side, you’€™re not thinking usually about a secondary player being over there. I’€™m not saying he couldn’€™t, but that’€™s infrequent.

“The secondary player is usually over on the three-man side where the tight end is. Now you’€™ve got him on the backside, now who’€™s got him, what’€™s the quarterback’€™s read? There are some things you have to handle. If you’€™re running away from them, then great, it doesn’€™t matter. I think when you get into the read-option game or the triple-option game or that type of, then that’€™s kind of a different ballgame.

“But it’€™s certainly an interesting aspect going all the way back to the single-wing days. That was the whole single-wing offense was the balanced single-wing, then the overloaded single-wing then the box shift back to the weakside. It was all overload blocking angles trying to create. I don’€™t think the plays were checked back then. You were just trying to show power over here, now you’€™ve got power over there and show power over here and run counter back the other way and all that. That’€™s really what football was in the ‘€˜40s; ‘€˜30s and the ‘€˜40s. That was a huge part of the game. It’€™s interesting to see how all that, how they tried to handle those different things, both offensively and what they tried to create and defensively what the answers were to them.”

http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports...his-youth-and-how-it-influenced-his-coaching/

Unbelievable stuff.
 

That was quite a presser from that bit to the discussion when someone followed-up by asking him if he wished he could have coached back then. He started talking about the year where his peewee football team, the T-birds (sponsored by the local Ford dealership) was coached by a former Clemson linemen, who played on one of the last single-wing offenses in college football and installed the single-wing for his peewee team, because that was the only offense he knew. I sure hope Bill writes a couple books when he is done, both on the history of the game and on some of his own schemes and experiences with them.
 
That was quite a presser from that bit to the discussion when someone followed-up by asking him if he wished he could have coached back then. He started talking about the year where his peewee football team, the T-birds (sponsored by the local Ford dealership) was coached by a former Clemson linemen, who played on one of the last single-wing offenses in college football and installed the single-wing for his peewee team, because that was the only offense he knew. I sure hope Bill writes a couple books when he is done, both on the history of the game and on some of his own schemes and experiences with them.

His reply to some mediot who asked if running a legal pick play was the hardest thing an NFL receiver had to do was timeless, too. "[Extremely long pause] Well, I don't know about that. [Long pause.] The hardest thing an NFL receiver has to do is, say it's 3rd and 5, and he has to get open when there's a cornerback 6 inches in front of his face trying to stop him. That's the hardest thing an NFL receiver has to do." Being able to talk about unbalanced lines and the single wing seemed like a balm for his soul after putting-up with that idiocy.

[Quotes are somewhat approximate.]
 
You know for all the heat Amendola gets for his first two games this season, Shane Vereen hasn't done much either hopefully it improves cause he's a big key guy if Pats expect to go far this season

I agree Vereen and Gronk are the key to the offense once they get going with Edelman the pass offense will be much better
 
On the running game:

I think that Belichick is rightly concerned about Tom Brady getting killed in the pocket. He took a beating in Miami with, I think, eight big hits. Two strip sack fumbles.

I suspect Belichick believes that, right now, for whatever reasons (we could discuss), the Patriots offense is not capable of keeping Brady from getting killed in a pass-happy offense. And, really, that's been the achilles heel of the Pats offense dating back to the first loss to the Giants in the SuperBowl. It's ultimately achilles heel of any pass happy offense.

The simplest way to keep a defense from teeing off on your QB is to run the ball. And, not just on that one play. Every running play the Pats put on game tape helps slow down the pass rush a little bit in the future.

The other key to frustrating a pass rush assault is to spread the ball around. If you only throw to two guys a defense can jam them at the line and take away your quick outlet passes. They can go light on the others, because they know you don't throw to them. (See Welker/Moss era).

If you don't do those things from team offense standpoint, your o-line (no matter how good) is eventually going to run into an opponent that kills your QB. The pass rush talent and schemes in the NFL is just too good to allow them to pin their ears back and tee off.

Ultimately, you can't win in the NFL without a passing game. But, the more the Pats can win running the ball right now, the better.
 
Thanks Mayo.

That was one of the best discussions by BB that I can recall in a long time.

Reading between the lines, it would seem to me that BB's answer to your question would probably be something like this:

1. It's inherently easier to adjust to substituting an OT for a TE without unbalancing the line, for both the offense and the opposing defense.

2. It's inherently easier for the offense to implement an unbalanced line with a jumbo package for the running game than for the passing game.

3. It's possible, and potentially effective at times, to implement an unbalanced line for the passing game and the entire offense, but complexity and practice time are probably limiting factors.

4. Because of the above, this is likely to be used situationally and with a simplified subset of the offensive playbook. It's not impossible that a team could run an up-tempo offense out of this set, but it's pretty unlikely that they would devote as much time to it as would be needed to do so smoothly.

It would't shock me, however, to see teams do this with increasing frequency, and not just in goal line and short yardage situations. It seems like a good way to throw opposing defenses off their rhythm and create potential breakdowns. If offenses are limited by practice time to get this kind of thing down, defenses will be even more limited in the time they can devote to defend against it.
 
We were a top 10 running game last year. The passing game is MORE effective when the running game is working well. I would note that a major change happened a couple of years ago. We decided to have a fullback as part of our offense. The team has 5 WR's on the roster, one on suspension and one on the Practice Squad. We have discussed them all as being part of our top 5 passing game.

If anything, Belichick has done little to support the running game. We have 2 players in their contract years, and a special teamer who gets a rep or two once in awhile. We also have a questionable (well, a to be proven) draft choice who is not good enough to be active. To me, that is not the mark of a team that is focused on the running game.

I'm confused by this post. First you start by attesting that we were a top 10 running team last year (as we were in 2012, and also in 2008 and 2004), that a good running game makes the passing game more effective, and that we have added a fullback as part of our squad. But then you say that BB "has done little to support the running game" and that we are "not focused on the running game". I'm not sure how those 2 jibe.

I certainly agree that we are not a run-first team, that BB tends to devalue the RB position and believes that he can have an effective running attack with a RBBC approach and without spending premium picks or high cap space on the position (though he did spend a 2nd and 3rd on Vereen and Ridley). But I think that BB values the running game in the context of the overall offense. He has done a number of things to "support" the running game:

- Using 2 TE sets as a frequent part of the offense
- Adding a fullback as part of the regular roster
- Moving towards bigger and more physical linemen. This is a work in progress, and certainly Mankins and Wendell were better in the rushing game last year than they were in pass protection.
- Implementing jumbo and unbalanced sets

I would argue that all of these things support the running game. Getting a big name or high-priced RB and rushing the ball 30 times a day isn't the only way to show that you value this part of the offense. I don't expect us ever to be a rush-first offense in the Brady era, but I think that the offense has generally been more effective when we have been able to run the ball effectively, and I hope that we won't devalue that part of the offense.
 
Thanks again Mayo. I actually think we are witnessing a reinvention of this offense and not a stopgap to stabilize the line while they get the NASCAR offense up and fully running again. Belichick knows that they have to be able to match up physically to beat the top NFC teams and that starts with running the ball effectively. He also knows that the best way to beat Manning is to limit his drive opportunities, and that means chewing up clock. I think the Patriots will keep the spread offensive sets and go to them at will when everything is running right but I really think they are reinventing their offense to run when they want, control the clock and dictate game management to their opponents. I will gladly take the Patriots with reduced offensive production as they work towards a physically dominating offense over another edition of 40 a game that loses when it matters most.The Patriots were out in front when it came to spread offenses and empty sets s well as 2 TE centric offenses that go no huddle and dictate a ridiculously fast pace, Given that teams have been building deffenses to match up against spread offenses over the past 4-5 years and it may well be that Belichick sees an opportunity to dictate to those defenses by going to the JUMBO offensive sets they cannot physically handle. If he does and it works then they can put Brady in position topick and choose when he wants to throw instead of having defenses know it is a likelihood on every down, and he should be able to chew them up with that advantage.I am starting to Develin was a pre-cursor to where they were going with the offeense philosophically, and that while they still want to put up over 30 a game that the real goal is physicality and controi over the game and possession.

i ccould obviously be way off the mark and they could just be trying to stabilize to back to the empty sets and 45 attempts a game MacDaniel's loves so much, but I hope they are going the path of a physical offense with a really good defense and special teams units behind them.
 
I hope they are going the path of a physical offense with a really good defense and special teams units behind them.

Which was my point when I brought up the offensive vs defensive scoring in the 9 game postseason stretch that saw 3 SB victories.

You wouldn't get into an "impressive" offensive display too often in those 9 games, and yet the defense and special teams did their jobs quite fine.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that we'll get very far averaging in the late teens/early twenties on offense these days, but we may be able to get back to the days of the defense establishing their dominance and the balance and running game showing up a lot more.
 
Getting a big name or high-priced RB and rushing the ball 30 times a day isn't the only way to show that you value this part of the offense. I don't expect us ever to be a rush-first offense in the Brady era, but I think that the offense has generally been more effective when we have been able to run the ball effectively, and I hope that we won't devalue that part of the offense.


I don't think it is run over pass or vice versa, i think it is creating an attack that allows you to dictate the game situations, and Belichick realizes it won't happen with a Greatest Show on Turf approach to the game. The goal is the Super Bowl and the NFC teams present serious physical challenges they cannot handle without coming up with an offense that can match up physically against them, and with Denver controlling the game is at a premium, so a shove it down their throats approach is the best way to keep the forehead off the field.

i think Belichick would love to see Brady be a 30 attempt a game QB who can put up 30 a game while always winning the TO battle, and let the rest of the team do the rest. i think this team is the first since 2004 where they have a chance to do just that. this is an Old School team, can't wait to see how it .
 
I don't think it is run over pass or vice versa, i think it is creating an attack that allows you to dictate the game situations, and Belichick realizes it won't happen with a Greatest Show on Turf approach to the game. The goal is the Super Bowl and the NFC teams present serious physical challenges they cannot handle without coming up with an offense that can match up physically against them, and with Denver controlling the game is at a premium, so a shove it down their throats approach is the best way to keep the forehead off the field.

i think Belichick would love to see Brady be a 30 attempt a game QB who can put up 30 a game while always winning the TO battle, and let the rest of the team do the rest. i think this team is the first since 2004 where they have a chance to do just that. this is an Old School team, can't wait to see how it .

I also think that BB has realized that being one-dimensional doesn't work over the long haul. Having LeGarrette Blount didn't help much against Denver when they stacked the box every time he was in the game and won all of the battles at the LOS. If you can create mismatches with the OL and cause the other team to adjust, it will just be another thing that teams have to prepare for.
 
Thanks again Mayo. I actually think we are witnessing a reinvention of this offense and not a stopgap to stabilize the line while they get the NASCAR offense up and fully running again. Belichick knows that they have to be able to match up physically to beat the top NFC teams and that starts with running the ball effectively. He also knows that the best way to beat Manning is to limit his drive opportunities, and that means chewing up clock. I think the Patriots will keep the spread offensive sets and go to them at will when everything is running right but I really think they are reinventing their offense to run when they want, control the clock and dictate game management to their opponents. I will gladly take the Patriots with reduced offensive production as they work towards a physically dominating offense over another edition of 40 a game that loses when it matters most.The Patriots were out in front when it came to spread offenses and empty sets s well as 2 TE centric offenses that go no huddle and dictate a ridiculously fast pace, Given that teams have been building deffenses to match up against spread offenses over the past 4-5 years and it may well be that Belichick sees an opportunity to dictate to those defenses by going to the JUMBO offensive sets they cannot physically handle. If he does and it works then they can put Brady in position topick and choose when he wants to throw instead of having defenses know it is a likelihood on every down, and he should be able to chew them up with that advantage.I am starting to Develin was a pre-cursor to where they were going with the offeense philosophically, and that while they still want to put up over 30 a game that the real goal is physicality and controi over the game and possession.

i ccould obviously be way off the mark and they could just be trying to stabilize to back to the empty sets and 45 attempts a game MacDaniel's loves so much, but I hope they are going the path of a physical offense with a really good defense and special teams units behind them.

I think you're spot on with just about everything in this post. I don't have much to add.

BB loves to add new bells and whistles to the offense. We saw the spread in 2007, the 2-TE offense in 2010, the hurry-up in 2011, and the return of the running game in 2012. Using varied OL sets including jumbo and unbalanced lines will be an increasing important part of the offense, though not a mainstay.

I think this is also something to think about in terms of what BB has been doing with the defense. He clearly has been going lighter on the edge than the old 3-4 2-gap, and going to players with more range to combat the spread and up-tempo offenses. But he hasn't abandoned his old tenets altogether, and he is still obsessed with stopping the run. Finding a balance - as we've discussed on the defensive threads, and by finding players like Collins and Hightower who have range and versatility but who aren't lightweights - results in a defense that is better able to match up against both power and spread formations, where smaller and lighter players might get overpowered.
 
Continued balance; jumbo package with 2 WR and I hope to see KT out there this week as I think this game suits him well.
Raiders play tight on the outside and KT, next to Julian, is their quickest receiver off the line. I also believe he is the 2nd most trusted WR of Brady's.
 
You know for all the heat Amendola gets for his first two games this season, Shane Vereen hasn't done much either hopefully it improves cause he's a big key guy if Pats expect to go far this season
I disagree, Shane Vereen has 111 total yards, and 1 touchdown this season. That puts him on pace for 888 total yards and 8 touchdowns. That would be his best season in the NFL by far.
 
Which was my point when I brought up the offensive vs defensive scoring in the 9 game postseason stretch that saw 3 SB victories.

You wouldn't get into an "impressive" offensive display too often in those 9 games, and yet the defense and special teams did their jobs quite fine.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that we'll get very far averaging in the late teens/early twenties on offense these days, but we may be able to get back to the days of the defense establishing their dominance and the balance and running game showing up a lot more.
I do not necessarily understand why it has to be either or, why do we have to sacrifice offense for defense or vice versa. Neither the defensive nor the offensive rebuilds were planned out well in my opinion, forcing the team to play through significant weaknesses in 1-2 positional groups on the team. I look at 2011 and if we had simply managed the rebuild of the secondary minimally, better we likely would have won the Super Bowl. Last season the WR position was the Achilles heel, this season it appears the OL is. The transition plan is too abrupt, attempting to turn over the entire WR corps or OL corps between the draft and week 1 of the season is too ambitious a goal and ultimately the weakest link ends up being our undoing in our biggest games.
 
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