all 22 film shows Brady is not utilizing all of his weapons

Deus Irae said:

Ok, so you can't accept the obvious here. No need to continue. You're getting just about every damned point wrong, all in some misguided attempt to show something that's not happening is miraculously happening nonetheless.

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You haven't been refuting my points with any real football knowledge other than to just say that I'm wrong. Sorry but that's not a very convincing argument to me.

Everyone may get some insight from reading AllWorldTE's posts in this thread LINK. Starts with post #35

I didn't see anything suggesting that posting links to another forum was verboten, and I think the content would be interesting to everyone reading this.

SSDD

SEPatsFan said:

Everyone may get some insight from reading AllWorldTE's posts in this thread LINK. Starts with post #35

I didn't see anything suggesting that posting links to another forum was verboten, and I think the content would be interesting to everyone reading this.

SSDD

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Thanks. I'll just post AWTE's comment on that third play here:

Balestrieri's third example is as flawed as his first two. He states "the Patriots facing a 2nd and 16 at their own 39 yard line, Edelman lines up wide left and runs a medium (7 yard) comeback. The Vikings deep safety on the right is already cheating to the left at the snap. Danny Amendola lined up on the right runs a route straight down the numbers. Brady again looks down Edelman and takes the safe, short option for a short gain with little opportunity for yards after catch. Amendola has position inside and plenty of room to run. Brady doesn't even look in his direction and misses an opportunity to gain a lot more yardage on a throw that is easily makeable.

The Pats are executing a packaged play here. Brady changed the call to this based on the defense he read. Amedola's side is running a Fade/Seam Concept and Edelman's is running a Hitch/Seam concept. Brady can only work one of these. These are single read concepts not progression patterns.

This is a quick pass. There are two separate route combinations being run here. Brady has to choose the one best suited to defeat the defense Minny is showing.

Balestrieri's own photo shows the wisdom in Brady's decision to work the Hitch/Seam as Edelman's Hitch is open by alignment before the ball is even snapped. Why would Brady pass up a pre-snap open receiver for the possibility another receiver would get open against a less favorable presentation on the other side of the field?

Minny's safety here isn't favoring anything. They're rolling to a single high coverage because the DC wanted to take Gronk out of the equation and did so. The Safety who rolled up was in position to threaten any Seam throw to Amendola who couldn't widen his route due to the outside Fade and couldn't go MOFO because the coverage rolled high. Not that it matters because Edelman was open pre-snap and was the correct option regardless.

Now if Amendola's side was running a mirrored Hitch/Seam an argument could be made that he was the better option but even then with his outside leverage removed it would be a dicey argument to make.

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Hmmm...... Sounds familiar.

KontradictioN said:

The only reason Edelman's numbers are lower is because Brady hit something like 5 different receivers in the first half of the Miami game. Through the next six quarters of play, the pass protection hasn't held up nearly as well and the balls have been going to Edelman and Gonk the majority of the time. When you compare that fact with the small sample size, your percentages are going to be skewed.

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Edelman was targeted 8 times over the past 6 quarters (1 in the second half in Miami and 7 in Minnesota), he was targeted 7 times in the first half of the Miami game so what you are saying makes very little sense.

I've said as much. I also said that when the pass protection is up to snuff, Brady will begin distributing the ball more. If he doesn't trust his pass protection, he's going to ge the ball out quickly and to receivers he trusts the most on thos option routes. Give him time and he'll find the receiver that's in the best position to do the most damage.

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That has been Edelman; Amendola and LaFell have seen targets; they have done nothing with them, why would you think Brady having more time would change that? Amendola cannot get separation from his defender unless we have another WR set an illegal pick and LaFell does not run the correct routes because he has not picked up the offense. Dobson is still playing catchup, and when Thompkins was out there in week 1 he got more targets than Edelman.

If that was their best chance of moving the ball and churning up first downs while killing T.O.P., they would have. We've seen situations with the Pats time and time again where they went bombs away in the second half, even with a big lead.

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Yes there were times, when we had Gronkowski (100%), Hernandez, Welker, Woodhead, etc. With Light-Mankins-Connolly-Waters-Vollmer along the OL.

Whatever. What is interesting is this never used to be an issue with Givens, Branch, Brown...Then Caldwell and GAffney and of course Moss and WW was fine.

Then it was:
Lewis no good
Holt to Old
Galloway diddnt care
Aiken blows
Ocho too stupid
Price sucks
Underwood stinks
Lloyd falls down

Now its

DA cant get separation
Dobson still rehabbing
KT wont get a chance
Lafell is lafail

There is one common theme here and I think some are ignoring it.

Bruins29 said:

Whatever. What is interesting is this never used to be an issue with Givens, Branch, Brown...Then Caldwell and GAffney and of course Moss and WW was fine.

Then it was:
Lewis no good
Holt to Old
Galloway diddnt care
Aiken blows
Ocho too stupid
Price sucks
Underwood stinks
Lloyd falls down

Now its

DA cant get separation
Dobson still rehabbing
KT wont get a chance
Lafell is lafail

There is one common theme here and I think some are ignoring it.

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So Tom Brady is the problem? He is the common denominator.

I think it's more likely that outside of Edelman, Gronkowski, and Vereen we have receivers who are not doing their jobs either due to inexperience in the offense, returning for an injury, or they are just not good enough to be productive in the offense.

Dobson is rehabbing, Amendola cannot get separation, LaFell doesn't have a good grasp of the offense, and Thompkins is just a JAG. Those things are actualities. Branch and Givens were significantly better than Amendola and LaFell. Dobson is an unknown in terms of how good he could be compared to them.

Bruins29 said:

Whatever. What is interesting is this never used to be an issue with Givens, Branch, Brown...Then Caldwell and GAffney and of course Moss and WW was fine.

Then it was:
Lewis no good
Holt to Old
Galloway diddnt care
Aiken blows
Ocho too stupid
Price sucks
Underwood stinks
Lloyd falls down

Now its

DA cant get separation
Dobson still rehabbing
KT wont get a chance
Lafell is lafail

There is one common theme here and I think some are ignoring it.

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Lloyd had the offense down, so he doesn't belong on your list.

KT and Dobson are second year players. So....

Branch
Givens
Moss
Welker
Caldwell (ish)
Stallworth
Gaffney
Lloyd
Watson
Graham
Gronk
Hernandez


So, no common theme, after all. And, of this group you listed (and I'll even add Tate, whom you missed)

Lewis no good
Holt to Old
Galloway diddnt care
Aiken blows
Ocho too stupid
Price sucks
Underwood stinks
Tate sucks

Which had any real success, as a receiver, after leaving NE?

Tate had the huge hair right. No was that Tiquan?

My point was not who performed after the pats. None of them did.

The point was that it seems that it is harder to get WRs as the years go on to be in sync with Brady. Maybe WRs these days arent as disciplined when it comes to playbooks. Or perhaps its Brady has less tolerance. Or maybe Brady has less patience and wants to get rid of the ball quicker, or because he does not have the O line he did. Or perhaps Brady isnt the same guy he was 10 or even 6 years ago. Or maybe BB cant find good WRs.

It might make for a good discussion.

Tiquan

Bruins29 said:

Tate had the huge hair right. No was that Tiquan?

My point was not who performed after the pats. None of them did.

The point was that it seems that it is harder to get WRs as the years go on to be in sync with Brady. Maybe WRs these days arent as disciplined when it comes to playbooks. Or perhaps its Brady has less tolerance. Or maybe Brady has less patience and wants to get rid of the ball quicker, or because he does not have the O line he did. Or perhaps Brady isnt the same guy he was 10 or even 6 years ago. Or maybe BB cant find good WRs.

It might make for a good discussion.

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When Johnson, Tate and Price were here Brady had Gronkowski, Welker, Hernandez, and Woodhead, all of them were better options. I do not even think Holt played a down, Lewis and Underwood were JAGs at best. LaFell will get better, he needs more time in the offense. It is time for people to consider the fact that Amendola will never have the same speed or burst that he had prior to the groin injury, we are not talking about Sammy Watkins, Amendola was not a fast player prior to the injury so any loss could be impactful. That has nothing to do with my dislike for Amendola either, if you watch him on the field in pads he is clearly not the same player he was in the Tampa Bay preseason game in 2013. Look at the impact the hip injury (similar type of injury) had on Ras-I Dowling after his rookie season.

I think we will see more Wright in upcoming weeks. I expect him to be a difference maker.

Bruins29 said:

Tate had the huge hair right. No was that Tiquan?

My point was not who performed after the pats. None of them did.

The point was that it seems that it is harder to get WRs as the years go on to be in sync with Brady. Maybe WRs these days arent as disciplined when it comes to playbooks. Or perhaps its Brady has less tolerance. Or maybe Brady has less patience and wants to get rid of the ball quicker, or because he does not have the O line he did. Or perhaps Brady isnt the same guy he was 10 or even 6 years ago. Or maybe BB cant find good WRs.

It might make for a good discussion.

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But your list was a list of has-been and never=was, while you were implying that Brady was the issue with your "There is one common theme here and I think some are ignoring it" line. Lloyd was able to get on the page with Brady, as were Welker and Moss. For that matter, Austin Collie was able to get on the same page as Brady mentally, even as his body just couldn't get it done anymore.

BB shops at K-Mart blue light specials for WRs. If you want to look for a common theme, here it is:

Danny Amendola is the biggest FA WR signing in BB's Patriots history.

Deus Irae said:

But we've had the discussion a bunch of times, and your list was a list of has-been and never=was, while you were implying that Brady was the issue with your "There is one common theme here and I think some are ignoring it" line. Lloyd was able to get on the page with Brady, as were Welker and Moss. For that matter, Austin Collie was able to get on the same page as Brady mentally, even as his body just couldn't get it done anymore.

BB shops at K-Mart blue light specials for WRs. If you want to look for a common theme, here it is:

Danny Amendola is the biggest FA WR signing in BB's Patriots history.

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I often take umbrage at Deus' overly critical view (in my opinion) of Belichick, but I have to completely agree with him on this.

All good points. Did BB just think TB would be able to get it done with just any WRs? At the time some of the washouts seemed like they could be good choices.

I am not saying its TB and not them but there must be something. I just dont recall a problem with WRs really until 2009. And it seems every year or so it either gets more difficult to find compatible guys. Or BB is getting more senile.

I dont know. But something is up with this. Perhaps the O is just rusty at this point and has not found itself and a lot of this is just overblown.

Is signing a Wallce type guy (when they had a chance) the solution? Spending the money and hoping he gets it?

AndyJohnson said:

I'm not sure why you would quote my post to say this.

The bottom line is if Edelman and Gronk are open, they will get the ball, because the offense is being called for them to be the first read. If they are not, the ball will go elsewhere. If we are defended differently, someone else will be the first read more often.

Its ridiculous to look at a passing game that has been just fine for 3 of the 4 halves it has played and call it flawed because of one poor half. If the struggles in the second half vs Miami reappear then there is cause for concern.
To idea that Brady is locking on to 2 receivers and by passing other is both ignorant to the facts and concepts of the passing game and wrong.

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I quote you because you seem focused on saying "the offense is just fine" - and while you can find stats to backup your opinion, you need to be more open minded to those who point out that this "fine" offense needs to develop and diversify to become championship caliber

Case in point - the 2007 was much MORE "fine" than this one. In fact it was one of the most prolific in the history of the game. And as the season went on it became more and more predictable - culminating with the Super Bowl.

You can say the 2007 Super Bowl team was "fine" - but I look at it and wish it was much more diverse. If it had been I have a feeling we'd be talking about the Patriots as the slam dunk unquestioned greatest team of all time.

But some Patsfans will take some solace in viewing that Moss/Welker focused offense as "fine" - just not me.

JoeSixPat said:

I quote you because you seem focused on saying "the offense is just fine" - and while you can find stats to backup your opinion, you need to be more open minded to those who point out that this "fine" offense needs to develop and diversify to become championship caliber

Case in point - the 2007 was much MORE "fine" than this one. In fact it was one of the most prolific in the history of the game. And as the season went on it became more and more predictable - culminating with the Super Bowl.

You can say the 2007 Super Bowl team was "fine" - but I look at it and wish it was much more diverse. If it had been I have a feeling we'd be talking about the Patriots as the slam dunk unquestioned greatest team of all time.

But some Patsfans will take some solace in viewing that Moss/Welker focused offense as "fine" - just not me.

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Kind of silly whining about the 2007 offense. And, by "kind of", I mean incredibly. The offense scored fewer than 20 points once, and that was when Brady was hobbled, all the TEs were injured, the starting RG was lost and the backup was already injured, and ridiculous fortune favored the opponent.

With all that, that team was still less than 3 minutes from 19-0.

Yes, the 2007 Super bowl team was fine, and a lot more than that.

Bruins29 said:

Is signing a Wallace type guy (when they had a chance) the solution? Spending the money and hoping he gets it?

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That would have been adding some speed all over again, without the other variables that are needed as well. Questionable leadership, questionable hands, questionable ability to pick up the system, and immaturity issues would have made Wallace a great choice for 7-8m dollars per year...but not a penny higher. Let the other teams go through the motions and end up realizing their mistakes with some of these flavor of the month players. While Wallace certainly has his positives, it's difficult to imagine Belichick having given him a second thought at that kind of money.

Signing or trading for a more physical veteran like a Boldin, a Steve Smith, or even making the long-rumored signing of Larry Fitzgerald a possibility (which may actually end up happening next offseason), would be a much better way to go. Of course things have to line up to make them available, but as Deus Irae stated, Belichick bargain shops at the position of WR. While I haven't been a huge advocate of giving up a 3rd round pick (or so), along with a double digit contract, I am starting to change my mind a bit lately.

The issue I have with this article is there really isnt any way you can comment without knowing about the reads and progressions. They are different for every play. Every pass play has a primary target who will be your first read...often based not only on the play call but then how the defence line up. If That man is Brady's first read, and he's open, he is going to hit him and ignore everyone else.

Now if Brady were staring the target down, he's wide open, and he opts for elsewhere, then you should be concerned.

It's like criticinsg play calls...unless you know the oppositions tendencies and the play sequence we are building up, you can't criticise the logic behind a play call at all because, quite frankly, you haven't got a clue.

UK_Pat37 said:

The issue I have with this article is there really isnt any way you can comment without knowing about the reads and progressions. They are different for every play. Every pass play has a primary target who will be your first read...often based not only on the play call but then how the defence line up. If That man is Brady's first read, and he's open, he is going to hit him and ignore everyone else.

Now if Brady were staring the target down, he's wide open, and he opts for elsewhere, then you should be concerned.

It's like criticinsg play calls...unless you know the oppositions tendencies and the play sequence we are building up, you can't criticise the logic behind a play call at all because, quite frankly, you haven't got a clue.

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While that is true, not just for the article but also for this discussion, that shouldn't prevent us from having fun discussing it or debating it. Otherwise, what's the use of talking about football or having a message board?

Brady6 said:

Edelman was targeted 8 times over the past 6 quarters (1 in the second half in Miami and 7 in Minnesota), he was targeted 7 times in the first half of the Miami game so what you are saying makes very little sense.

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No, it doesn't. You can feel free to look this up yourself, but by half of the Miami game, Brady had hit five different receivers. If that hadn't happened, Edelman's target percentage would naturally be higher. This is actually very simple to understand so I have to think you're intentionally choosing to ignore it. Either that, or you're under the impression that I'm somehow blaming Brady for the the lopsided target percentage.

That has been Edelman; Amendola and LaFell have seen targets; they have done nothing with them, why would you think Brady having more time would change that?

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Edelman and Gronk have had 32 of the targets while the next five receiving options in Brady's arsenal have totalled 29 altogether. Again, on a team where no one guy has established himself as a #1 caliber wideout (hopefully that will change with Dobson), that's a problem. I still think the reason for it is Brady's general distrust in his pass protection, particularly up the A and B gaps. It would explain the amount of 2WR sets from last week and the percentage of throws that were coming out in less than 2 seconds. What I'm thinking is that this issue through the first two games will sort itself out eventually.

Amendola cannot get separation from his defender unless we have another WR set an illegal pick

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This is troubling to me. He actually has looked slower than he did last year, with the torn groin.

and LaFell does not run the correct routes because he has not picked up the offense.

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How are you coming to this conclusion? This not what I have seen and I have not seen this reported at all either. To me, it looks (and this is without knowing the play call) that he was running the correct routes when targeted in Miami, but was simply not coming down with the ball.

Dobson is still playing catchup, and when Thompkins was out there in week 1 he got more targets than Edelman.

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These two statements, combined with my expectation for pass protection to improve, are the reasons why I think the Pats will have a more multi-dimensional passing game going forward.

Deus Irae said:

Thanks. I'll just post AWTE's comment on that third play here:

Hmmm...... Sounds familiar.

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From another AWTE post in that thread:

AllWorldTE said:

I'm not sure why Balestrieri is arguing that Brady should pass up the intended receiver by game plan here, who just happens to be wide open, in favor of the second option who is not open at the time the ball was throw[n].

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God I love AWTE. He and Jay Shields are in a class by themselves.