all 22 film shows Brady is not utilizing all of his weapons

The saying is "you are what you are." To me that means, until they prove otherwise, this offense is basically Edelmen with a sprinkling of Gronk and Vereen. Stop Edelmen and the offense is stopped.

If they do not get these players involved now, it will be too late when they need them. We have constantly seen this over the last 5 years. Practicing and knowing the plays is not the same as running them in a game.

Deus Irae said:

No, that's not assuming Edelman was, or is, his primary target. That's knowing the routes.

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It's not knowing the routes, it's knowing the formation which is 2 x 1, closed side, so Brady's concept read would be R-L, assuming it's not an one-off play call which I really doubt because it's not first down. I could be wrong, of course.

Deus Irae said:

You don't keep pointing out. You keep asserting. Different things. This is why I brought up the fact that the picture is too late into Brady's throw. The safety is in position, and he's been drifting up towards the play, which means that he's closer to Brady now than he was when Brady first began his throw to the left. Had Brady been throwing to the right, we're looking at a potential INT, as the safety would have been further back and able to break on the ball. Instead, Brady's throwing to the wide open receiver.

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The SS wasn't "drifting" he was rolling down at a good clip, so you are suggesting that he can roll down, come to a full stop, pivot and chase Amendola running in the opposite direction, all while shaded the wrong way (to the inside).

Deus Irae said:

No, I'm 'assuming' the obvious, and it's not an assumption at all. The passing lane has a safety in it. You are assuming the primary defender, with excellent coverage, has lost his ability to use his hands to bat the ball away, and the safety in position to pick off the pass, is incapable of any movement.

This comes down to you wanting Brady to throw into coverage because it would be to someone not named Edelman. You're welcome to have that wish, but Brady's decision is the right one.

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When you win inside leverage, it's impossible for your man to make any kind of good play without committing DPI. You could try to undercut him, but then that's why Brady would be lobbing the ball, to lead Amendola a little bit so that he always has his body between his man and the ball, that's a win-win situation no matter how you put it.

And since it's a lob pass into Amendola, the ball would have been five feet above the SS, so no way the SS could pick off the ball.

Am I saying Brady made the wrong decision here? No, I am saying he could have made a better decision in this one play rather than skip his reads and locking and firing, especially when his OL walled off pretty well on this snap.

http://nesn.com/2014/09/tom-brady-not-to-blame-for-forcing-passes-to-favorite-patriots-receivers/

I will now ask http://nesn.com/doug-kyed/ to have my babies (we will just have to work out the Man/Man thing)

And Im applauding this article not as a homer or as a Brady apologist, but as a human being that appreciates the articulate usage of reason and logic in the face of stupidity and trolling idiocy.

JoeSixPat said:

Here's where I think some Patsfans differ

If you are measuring success in completed passes in a half, it looks good

If you are measuring the offense in it's ability to win games, than it's not looking quite as good (and that includes their win which was helped by a great D)

And if you are measuring the offfense in it's ability to be unpredictable when the competition in the playoffs is at it's peak, you are more than a bit worried

That being said, it's September - not December. If Belichick, McDaniels and Brady agree that a diverse offense is the key to winning in February - ensuring that Defenses can't simply gang up on Gronk and Edelman on that one big play that makes or breaks a game - then I'm confident they will work to correct such shortcomings

But they'd have to admit there is a concern first - and as we have seen many fans are blinded by short term fantasy football stats

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I'm not sure why you would quote my post to say this.

The bottom line is if Edelman and Gronk are open, they will get the ball, because the offense is being called for them to be the first read. If they are not, the ball will go elsewhere. If we are defended differently, someone else will be the first read more often.

Its ridiculous to look at a passing game that has been just fine for 3 of the 4 halves it has played and call it flawed because of one poor half. If the struggles in the second half vs Miami reappear then there is cause for concern.
To idea that Brady is locking on to 2 receivers and by passing other is both ignorant to the facts and concepts of the passing game and wrong.

PP2 said:

It's not knowing the routes, it's knowing the formation which is 2 x 1, closed side, so Brady's concept read would be R-L, assuming it's not an one-off play call which I really doubt because it's not first down. I could be wrong, of course.



The SS wasn't "drifting" he was rolling down at a good clip, so you are suggesting that he can roll down, come to a full stop, pivot and chase Amendola running in the opposite direction, all while shaded the wrong way (to the inside).



When you win inside leverage, it's impossible for your man to make any kind of good play without committing DPI. You could try to undercut him, but then that's why Brady would be lobbing the ball, to lead Amendola a little bit so that he always has his body between his man and the ball, that's a win-win situation no matter how you put it.

And since it's a lob pass into Amendola, the ball would have been five feet above the SS, so no way the SS could pick off the ball.

Am I saying Brady made the wrong decision here? No, I am saying he could have made a better decision in this one play rather than skip his reads and locking and firing, especially when his OL walled off pretty well on this snap.

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You are ignoring the only truth. Edelman was his first read, and was open so he threw to Edleman.

Is the source of confusion here that people do not understand progressions and thinks that the QB looks at ALL receivers in progression order THEN chooses who to throw to? That is what some of the comments seem to suggest.
The QB reads his progressions and throws to the first one that is open. If #1 is open he will throw, not look to see if others are more open.

AndyJohnson said:

Is the source of confusion here that people do not understand progressions and thinks that the QB looks at ALL receivers in progression order THEN chooses who to throw to? That is what some of the comments seem to suggest.
The QB reads his progressions and throws to the first one that is open. If #1 is open he will throw, not look to see if others are more open.

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No, the problem is that if Edelmen is the only guy getting open, this team is not going very far. We understand progressions just fine. We understand how coverage can dictate progression.

What we are saying is that other receivers need to be more involved, teams don't just magically develop a diverse passing attack in week 15. It takes weeks of practice and then implementing those plays into the games. If LaFell/Thompkins/Dobson are not seeing the ball consistently throughout the season, they will not see the ball in the post-season either....

We have seen this movie before, you appear to be forgetting how it ends.

Let me remind you
Patriots score less than 20 points in the playoffs and lose

Nunchucks said:

No, the problem is that if Edelmen is the only guy getting open, this team is not going very far. We understand progressions just fine. We understand how coverage can dictate progression.

What we are saying is that other receivers need to be more involved, teams don't just magically develop a diverse passing attack in week 15. It takes weeks of practice and then implementing those plays into the games. If LaFell/Thompkins/Dobson are not seeing the ball consistently throughout the season, they will not see the ball in the post-season either....

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So you expect McDaniels to call plays that aren't the best way to attack what the defense is doing so that you can feel better about who is catching passes? Or are you saying you want Brady to not throw to the open man.
I'm also not sure how you are answering as 'we'.

We have seen this movie before, you appear to be forgetting how it ends.

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So not winning a SB makes everything the team that has won more games than any other does wrong?
So I could use this argument for anything.
Lets bench Brady because we've seen that movie and know how it ends.
Lets fire BB because we've seen that movie and know how it ends.
Trading Mankins was by definition a great move because we've seen the movie of him playing and know how that ends.
Lets bench Revis because his movie has never ended with a Championship.

AndyJohnson said:

You are ignoring the only truth. Edelman was his first read, and was open so he threw to Edleman.

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And you know this, how?

Also please show me where I said that Edelman was not Brady's first read.

AndyJohnson said:

So you expect McDaniels to call plays that aren't the best way to attack what the defense is doing so that you can feel better about who is catching passes? Or are you saying you want Brady to not throw to the open man.
I'm also not sure how you are answering as 'we'.


So not winning a SB makes everything the team that has won more games than any other does wrong?
So I could use this argument for anything.
Lets bench Brady because we've seen that movie and know how it ends.
Lets fire BB because we've seen that movie and know how it ends.
Trading Mankins was by definition a great move because we've seen the movie of him playing and know how that ends.
Lets bench Revis because his movie has never ended with a Championship.

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Your hyperbole aside......well, there is nothing there if we just cut out the BS.....so, I guess there is nothing really to address in your post.

There is more than 1 play that can work during any given offensive snap and there can be other primary reads that can be successful. Furthermore, teams often will run plays to setup other plays.....so....yeah.....I expect them to run a play that features other players and I expect those plays to be successful. If they cannot run them successfully...how can they run those plays in the playoffs when it really counts?

Your logic is astounding awful.

Nunchucks said:

The saying is "you are what you are." To me that means, until they prove otherwise, this offense is basically Edelmen with a sprinkling of Gronk and Vereen. Stop Edelmen and the offense is stopped.

If they do not get these players involved now, it will be too late when they need them. We have constantly seen this over the last 5 years. Practicing and knowing the plays is not the same as running them in a game.

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Please give an example of a team that spreads the ball around better and 'hasn't had this problem for 5 years'

mgteich said:

There is no conflict between these statements.

The offense is fine.

The offense needs improvement.

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Except for The Offense Is Fine part…because it isn't.

PP2 said:

And you know this, how?

Also please show me where I said that Edelman was not Brady's first read.

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Watch the play.
You said
he could have made a better decision in this one play rather than skip his reads and locking and firing,

If Edelman was his first read, he would have never seen the other receivers. How do you 'skip reads' if you throw to your first one?

Nunchucks said:

Your hyperbole aside......well, there is nothing there if we just cut out the BS.....so, I guess there is nothing really to address in your post.

There is more than 1 play that can work during any given offensive snap and there can be other primary reads that can be successful. Furthermore, teams often will run plays to setup other plays.....so....yeah.....I expect them to run a play that features other players and I expect those plays to be successful. If they cannot run them successfully...how can they run those plays in the playoffs when it really counts?

Your logic is astounding awful.

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You do realize that your entire presumption (that Brady is throwing more than normal to his top 2 receivers) is incorrect right?

Also interesting that you call my post hyperbole when it was mocking your hyperbole that whatever you want to say is wrong happens to be the cause of not winning more SBs.

AndyJohnson said:

Watch the play.
You said
he could have made a better decision in this one play rather than skip his reads and locking and firing,

If Edelman was his first read, he would have never seen the other receivers. How do you 'skip reads' if you throw to your first one?

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Was it an one-off play? I don't have the ability to review the game.

Why are we discussing it if you are guessing at what happened?
Brady set up and throwed immediately to Edelman, who was open, and was really obviously the first read.

PP2 said:

It's not knowing the routes, it's knowing the formation which is 2 x 1, closed side, so Brady's concept read would be R-L, assuming it's not an one-off play call which I really doubt because it's not first down. I could be wrong, of course.

Click to expand...

Indeed, you could.

PP2 said:

The SS wasn't "drifting" he was rolling down at a good clip, so you are suggesting that he can roll down, come to a full stop, pivot and chase Amendola running in the opposite direction, all while shaded the wrong way (to the inside).

Click to expand...

Think on what you just posted, and you'll be able to figure out why it's a huge problem with your argument. Again, remember that Edelman is running a stop/comeback route.

PP2 said:

When you win inside leverage, it's impossible for your man to make any kind of good play without committing DPI. You could try to undercut him, but then that's why Brady would be lobbing the ball, to lead Amendola a little bit so that he always has his body between his man and the ball, that's a win-win situation no matter how you put it.

Click to expand...

This is simply a completely erroneous claim, as we see demonstrated consistently during NFL games.

PP2 said:

And since it's a lob pass into Amendola, the ball would have been five feet above the SS, so no way the SS could pick off the ball.

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A lob pass there is begging for an INT. The CB already has the WR stride for stride, so Amendola's not winning any races for a lob. There's nowhere for a lob pass to be thrown. The only play Brady has there is a hard throw to the inside, and that risks the INT by the safety.

PP2 said:

Am I saying Brady made the wrong decision here? No

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Then that's the end of it.Brady made the obviously correct read. You want him to needlessly put the ball at risk instead of making that correct read.

AndyJohnson said:

Why are we discussing it if you are guessing at what happened?
Brady set up and throwed immediately to Edelman, who was open, and was really obviously the first read.

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That is just it, I am making an educated guess on the play. I am not assuming I know everything including the playcall. If it truly was an one-off play then I am in error.

Deus Irae said:

Indeed, you could.

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Don't think so. Reads in EP concepts are not player based, they are coverage based, unless it is an one-off read.

Deus Irae said:

Think on what you just posted, and you'll be able to figure out why it's a huge problem with your argument. Again, remember that Edelman is running a stop/comeback route.

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I believe that since the SS is shaded the wrong way, it is impossible for him to make a play on Amendola.

Deus Irae said:

This is simply a completely erroneous claim, as we see demonstrated consistently during NFL games.

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Then why do coaches keep talking about winning "inside leverage"?

Deus Irae said:

A lob pass there is begging for an INT. The CB already has the WR stride for stride, so Amendola's not winning any races for a lob. There's nowhere for a lob pass to be thrown. The only play Brady has there is a hard throw to the inside, and that risks the INT by the safety.

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Like I said many times over, Amendola has inside leverage and as long as he has that, Brady can lead him a little on the inside.

And no, no hard throw needed. There is no safety on top of him, the only other safety is on the opposite end of the field.

Deus Irae said:

Then that's the end of it.Brady made the obviously correct read. You want him to needlessly put the ball at risk instead of making that correct read.

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If that play was an one-off call, then he did. But if the play called for a full read, then he didn't.

PP2 said:

Don't think so. Reads in EP concepts are not player based, they are coverage based, unless it is an one-off read.

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Ok, so you can't accept the obvious here. No need to continue. You're getting just about every damned point wrong, all in some misguided attempt to show something that's not happening is miraculously happening nonetheless.