Discuss the defense

JMC00 · Sep 17, 2014

Ivan said:
It's good to see this turning towards the secondary. The discussion of the front 7 has been enlightening and I would love to see a similar breakdown regarding the secondary and how they are using Revis and McCourty and what they might have in mind going forward.

pencilneckgeek · Sep 17, 2014

I've been thinking it's time to think about the secondary, as well. We might not be able to evaluate schemes in their entirety, but we should be able to get a look at when zone or man are being employed and how that relates to the various personnel groupings, as the secondary is clearly an area where there is a lot of situational substitution going on.

pencilneckgeek · Sep 17, 2014

mayoclinic said:
Some film review by Doug Kyed:

http://nesn.com/2014/09/jerod-mayo-sealver-siliga-stand-out-in-patriots-vikings-film-review/

A couple of nice shots. I think he confuses Skinner with Hightower at one point.

This will be a good year for the local media to show their chops (or lack thereof) with all the shifting fronts and likely changing coverages that Belichick rolls out there. He's certainly not going to make it easy on them.

Ring 6 · Sep 17, 2014

pencilneckgeek said:
This will be a good year for the local media to show their chops (or lack thereof) with all the shifting fronts and likely changing coverages that Belichick rolls out there. He's certainly not going to make it easy on them.

The problem is when they are wrong, they are still cited as authority.
The Ballisteri article was a horrendous piece of writing about something with zero understanding of it.
There have been a number of articles about how BB got smart and used Jones differently this week, when in this thread we have shown, they played the exact same schemes as the week before.

pencilneckgeek · Sep 17, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
The problem is when they are wrong, they are still cited as authority.
The Ballisteri article was a horrendous piece of writing about something with zero understanding of it.
There have been a number of articles about how BB got smart and used Jones differently this week, when in this thread we have shown, they played the exact same schemes as the week before.

I don't see that as a problem. I view it as an opportunity for the disgruntled membership of the board to pile-on some New England sports(ish) figures deserving of such unbridled calumny.

mayoclinic · Sep 17, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
The problem is when they are wrong, they are still cited as authority.
The Ballisteri article was a horrendous piece of writing about something with zero understanding of it.
There have been a number of articles about how BB got smart and used Jones differently this week, when in this thread we have shown, they played the exact same schemes as the week before.

Given that people still can't get beyond "3-4 vs. 4-3", I think it's not realistic to expect that people - including so-called professionals in the media - are going to be able to grasp stuff this complex. You need to look at base vs. sub, pre- and post-snap adjustments, blitzing and stunts, coverage packages, and numerous other factors. People will try and simplify it, and most either don't care or don't know enough to get it right, so we'll read things like this:

If there was one takeaway from Chandler Jones’ mediocre Week One performance, it was that the athletic defensive lineman wasn’t being properly utilized.

In Miami, Jones played on the inside as a 3-4 defensive end. Instead of playing on the edge and routinely pressuring Ryan Tannehill, he was relegated to a run-stopping role where his main duties were controlling two gaps. It’s a job better suited for defensive-tackle types like Vince Wilfork, Chris Jones and Sealver Siliga. Jones, like most of his teammates at Sun Life Stadium, had trouble stopping the run and finished with four tackles and zero quarterback pressures.

If there’s one takeaway from Jones’ dynamic performance in Week Two, it’s that the Patriots brass shaped up and put the defensive end back in the spot that best suits his skill set and will best help the team.

http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/patriots/content/20140916-chandler-jones-proves-a-disruptive-force-when-used-correctly.ece

Unfortunately, I think it's hopeless to expect more. Guys like Reiss, Kyed and Frentz aren't analysts. Even Tedy Bruschi's chat sessions simplify things to a great degree, presumably dumbing it down for his perceived audience.

PatFanCraig · Sep 17, 2014

If Dominique gets he explosiveness, agility, and athleticism back, the defense will be downright dominant. if he is anywhere close to geno Atkins they will dominate Miami next time when they are lined up correctly. The answers to fix the online are on the roster with Cameron Fleming as the athletic mauling right guard. OLine can go from terrible to good or maybe even dominant. If Dominique gets up to speed by the time the dolphins come to fox town it could very well be a reversal of the game in Miami. Dominique Easley has got his size back and is nearly at his targeted NFL playing weight. if he gets his explosiveness agility and flexibility back who can block him one on one. I have seen him practically parallel to the ground while maintaining complete balance and power. Couple that leverage with his explosive burst and he, chandler Jones and Collins and Hightower can form the most fire breathing qb harrassing combo the teams had in tom Brady and bill era while Wilfork Siliga eat up blockers. Throw in Chris Jones ,Buchanan and Moore rotating in to keep starters fresh and its a deep athletic front 7. Miami should be in for a surprise the next visit if they expect vellano and chandler Jones at 3-4 end. This group depends on Easley, if he gets back to form this could be one of NFL's most destructive defenses with him and Chandler leading the way

BradyFTW! · Sep 17, 2014

mayoclinic said:
Given that people still can't get beyond "3-4 vs. 4-3", I think it's not realistic to expect that people - including so-called professionals in the media - are going to be able to grasp stuff this complex. You need to look at base vs. sub, pre- and post-snap adjustments, blitzing and stunts, coverage packages, and numerous other factors. People will try and simplify it, and most either don't care or don't know enough to get it right, so we'll read things like this:

http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/patriots/content/20140916-chandler-jones-proves-a-disruptive-force-when-used-correctly.ece

Unfortunately, I think it's hopeless to expect more. Guys like Reiss, Kyed and Frentz aren't analysts. Even Tedy Bruschi's chat sessions simplify things to a great degree, presumably dumbing it down for his perceived audience.

Agreed, 3-4/4-3 barely even matters in this defense. When Chandler Jones and Ninkovich are both taking a bunch of snaps at both 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE from the same technique, it's purely an academic distinction.

mgteich · Sep 17, 2014

Ivan said:
It's good to see this turning towards the secondary. The discussion of the front 7 has been enlightening and I would love to see a similar breakdown regarding the secondary and how they are using Revis and McCourty and what they might have in mind going forward.

As I recall, the discussion of the front seven came because we saw poor results and believed that much was due to scheme and misuse of the players, and finally that the schemes changed between games. We were genuinely confused by Belichick's defensive schemes. Just BTW, I think that a very good thing indeed.

There have a couple of criticisms of the secondary schemes and performance, but not many. It is difficult to complain much, given the pass defense stats. Most of us have been pleasantly surprised by the play of the safeties. It seems that all have a role except Wilson, and even he was on the field. We have been pleasantly surprised by the way that Ryan was able to step in and start. I see only improvement as we add Dennard and Browner into the mix. So, yeah, I would welcome a discussion of secondary schemes, but I am very satisfied with what I see, and therefore do not see the need. Make no mistake, I think that such discussion could be useful. In the end, I think that the schemes, roles and matchups will change each week, with injuries and depending on who we are playing that week.

Kontradiction · Sep 17, 2014

BradyFTW! said:
Agreed, 3-4/4-3 barely even matters in this defense. When Chandler Jones and Ninkovich are both taking a bunch of snaps at both 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE from the same technique, it's purely an academic distinction.

Aye, but it's an issue when Jones is either lining up at 3-tech DT in the 43 or as a DE in the 34 and is trying to two gap. Granted I haven't taken a full review of the game from this last weekend but, from what I could tell, he wasn't doing nearly as much two gapping as he was in Week 1. The result was he was much more comfortable and was making impact plays all over the field. For me, the issue wasn't so much that he was lining up at DE in the 34. It was the amount of plays that he was trying to two gap and was getting blown off the ball rather easily against the run.

BradyFTW! · Sep 17, 2014

KontradictioN said:
Aye, but it's an issue when Jones is either lining up at 3-tech DT in the 43 or as a DE in the 34 and is trying to two gap. Granted I haven't taken a full review of the game from this last weekend but, from what I could tell, he wasn't doing nearly as much two gapping as he was in Week 1. The result was he was much more comfortable and was making impact plays all over the field. For me, the issue wasn't so much that he was lining up at DE in the 34. It was the amount of plays that he was trying to two gap and was getting blown off the ball rather easily against the run.

I agree, to the extent that I dislike seeing Jones line up anywhere except the edge of the formation. Any time Jones is inside, I'm not happy, except maybe on third and long if they're bringing Buchanan in as a DE and want to get the most pressure possible out of the front 4 with Jones and Easley inside. I didn't review week 1 (couldn't bear to rewatch it), but I've rewatched the last game a couple of times. Off the top of my head I can't recall seeing Jones line up at 3 technique at any point in week 2.

But in any case, I don't think that's a 4-3/3-4 issue as much as it's a "correctly utilizing your personnel" issue.

mayoclinic · Sep 17, 2014

KontradictioN said:
Aye, but it's an issue when Jones is either lining up at 3-tech DT in the 43 or as a DE in the 34 and is trying to two gap. Granted I haven't taken a full review of the game from this last weekend but, from what I could tell, he wasn't doing nearly as much two gapping as he was in Week 1. The result was he was much more comfortable and was making impact plays all over the field. For me, the issue wasn't so much that he was lining up at DE in the 34. It was the amount of plays that he was trying to two gap and was getting blown off the ball rather easily against the run.

The only time a Jones should possibly be lining up as a 3-tech is in sub, so 3-4 vs. 4-3 should be irrelevant.

Kontradiction · Sep 17, 2014

mayoclinic said:
The only time a Jones should possibly be lining up as a 3-tech is in sub, so 3-4 vs. 4-3 should be irrelevant.

Agreed but he was kicking inside as a 3-tech in the base at times last season which is why I mentioned that. The real source of my ire in the Dolphins game is how much they were having him two-gap. Jones is simply not strong enough to hold up in two gap discipline. There also shouldn't be any reason for him to kick inside at all, either in base or sub. Especially when Easley gets up to speed. Whether it's at OLB or DE, Jones should stay on the edge at all times.

Ring 6 · Sep 17, 2014

KontradictioN said:
Aye, but it's an issue when Jones is either lining up at 3-tech DT in the 43 or as a DE in the 34 and is trying to two gap. Granted I haven't taken a full review of the game from this last weekend but, from what I could tell, he wasn't doing nearly as much two gapping as he was in Week 1. The result was he was much more comfortable and was making impact plays all over the field. For me, the issue wasn't so much that he was lining up at DE in the 34. It was the amount of plays that he was trying to two gap and was getting blown off the ball rather easily against the run.

Jones has not lined up as a 3 tech DT all season. He has not 2gapped as a 34 DE all season.
When we are in the base, which is about 1/3 of the time, he has played OLB if the strength of the formation is to his side, and 5 tech with outside leverage (which of course is not 2 gap) on the OT.
2 gap play would be a 4 tech, which he has not done.

Ring 6 · Sep 17, 2014

KontradictioN said:
Agreed but he was kicking inside as a 3-tech in the base at times last season which is why I mentioned that. The real source of my ire in the Dolphins game is how much they were having him two-gap. Jones is simply not strong enough to hold up in two gap discipline.

No he didn't. the only time he played over the G last season was in sub packages on 3rd and long or 2 minute D

AzPatsFan · Sep 17, 2014

KevinFaulk-33 said:
I was impressed by Logan Ryan. When he was in man vs Patterson he played really well. And he is the fourth stringer!

Do you remember when Wilhite was the starting CB?

He was covering the sooper duper, supa Star, Corderelle Patterson.

A Pats coach said in passing the Pats would never take a guy like that and they didn't.

Patterson is an athlete, with the brain power of a block of granite. He didn't defend against the INTs, and even allowed himself to be tackled in bounds when time was running out, as he sought an extra yard to pad his stats.

Stoopid is as Stoopid does.

supafly · Sep 18, 2014

AzPatsFan said:
Patterson is an athlete, with the brain power of a block of granite. He didn't defend against the INTs, and even allowed himself to be tackled in bounds when time was running out, as he sought an extra yard to pad his stats.

While I agree with your assessment of Patterson's smarts (or lack thereof), I'm not sure if we can honestly fault him for being tackled in bounds at the end of a 30-7 shellacking.

To be honest with you, I don't even see what any of the fuss is about. We were able to get like 4 extra picks for giving up our 29th pick, and Belichick didn't seem to think that anyone jumped out enough at him to pass that up. I don't even understand why Patterson feels so slighted in the least?

Ivan · Sep 18, 2014

PatFanCraig said:
If Dominique gets he explosiveness, agility, and athleticism back, the defense will be downright dominant. if he is anywhere close to geno Atkins they will dominate Miami next time when they are lined up correctly. The answers to fix the online are on the roster with Cameron Fleming as the athletic mauling right guard. OLine can go from terrible to good or maybe even dominant. If Dominique gets up to speed by the time the dolphins come to fox town it could very well be a reversal of the game in Miami. Dominique Easley has got his size back and is nearly at his targeted NFL playing weight. if he gets his explosiveness agility and flexibility back who can block him one on one. I have seen him practically parallel to the ground while maintaining complete balance and power. Couple that leverage with his explosive burst and he, chandler Jones and Collins and Hightower can form the most fire breathing qb harrassing combo the teams had in tom Brady and bill era while Wilfork Siliga eat up blockers. Throw in Chris Jones ,Buchanan and Moore rotating in to keep starters fresh and its a deep athletic front 7. Miami should be in for a surprise the next visit if they expect vellano and chandler Jones at 3-4 end. This group depends on Easley, if he gets back to form this could be one of NFL's most destructive defenses with him and Chandler leading the way

lmao-I honestly believe this is a spoof.

Joker · Sep 18, 2014

Nope...Gym Rat is serious...say what you want but his enthusiasm is infectious...even if his dreams are a bit fanciful

KevinFaulk-33 · Sep 18, 2014

It would be awesome if one of you could breakdown some defense footage every week. Just the most important play, like you did some pages ago!

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