Discuss the Offense (Week 3)

It worked out well for a discussion of what was going on with the Patriots defense thanks to a number of knowledgeable posters who talked football and scheme so hopefully we can have a similar discussion about the offense and what they are and are not doing scheme wise and with different players and packages.

*Note-This is not a thread for posters to grind on their own personal agenda's and if it starts going down that road i will ask the moderators to delete their posts. Hopefully people will stick to a discussion of the offense and what it is doing and where it will/should be going in coming weeks and months.

Mayoclinic did a great job outlining the Patriots use of Jumbo packages that Stanford has been experimenting with the past few seasons and that may well be a good jumping off point given the Patriots use of 6 OL packages last Sunday.

Unfortunately I'm a one trick pony and only know anything about defense. I'm still looking forward to seeing what people smarter than me come up with about our offense!

VrabelJr said:

Unfortunately I'm a one trick pony and only know anything about defense. I'm still looking forward to seeing what people smarter than me come up with about our offense!

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Works for me, I started them so that people smarter than I am could discuss both sides of the ball, I learned a lot in the thread about the defense and hope the same happens with this thread. I would much rather read and engage in these kinds of discussions because that's really what i come here for and what this place is best at imo. Mayoclinic, Andy johnson, and Brady FTW and a number of others were exceptional in outlining what is going on with the Patriots defense and imo that raises the level of knowledge and discourse in this forum instead of dragging it down with personal agenda's. I hope the same happens in this thread.

I applaud you for starting these threads. I'll try to chime in later.

mayoclinic said:

I applaud you for starting these threads. I'll try to chime in later.

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I'm actually grateful to you, Andy, FTW and others for providing everyone with an intelligent breakdown of what they are doing on defense, i think it really helps everyone understand what is really going on and allows to understand the team better as the season evolves.

I'll toss a couple of quick thoughts into the ring.

I know the offense took a lot of heat last week, but I think that the Pats went into the game with some very specific goals in mind:

- Stop the OL hemorrhaging and keep Brady from getting killed
- Establish some run-pass balance
- Build a bit of confidence, particularly in the OL

They kept some OL continuity with Solder-Cannon-Connolly-Devey-Vollmer. I loved the use of jumbo sets with Fleming at TE and max-protect at times. I liked the running game and letting Ridley pound the ball a bit.

Obviously, Brady isn't in sync with his receivers yet, Gronk and Dobson aren't fully back, and Wright isn't up to speed. The OL is still a work in progress, though I could actually see this becoming a major new element of the offense moving forward. There's lots of work to be done, and it was baby steps. But I'm not as down as some.

mayoclinic said:

I'll toss a couple of quick thoughts into the ring.

I know the offense took a lot of heat last week, but I think that the Pats went into the game with some very specific goals in mind:

- Stop the OL hemorrhaging and keep Brady from getting killed
- Establish some run-pass balance
- Build a bit of confidence, particularly in the OL

They kept some OL continuity with Solder-Cannon-Connolly-Devey-Vollmer. I loved the use of jumbo sets with Fleming at TE and max-protect at times. I liked the running game and letting Ridley pound the ball a bit.

Obviously, Brady isn't in sync with his receivers yet, Gronk and Dobson aren't fully back, and Wright isn't up to speed. The OL is still a work in progress, though I could actually see this becoming a major new element of the offense moving forward. There's lots of work to be done, and it was baby steps. But I'm not as down as some.

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I agree, i think that's exactly what's going on. hate to ask but if you could link to the Stanford articles again it would be helpful imo. I'm also interested in how going JUMBO limits their offensive sets and whether or not they can go fast break using that set of packages. If I'm not mistaken it is essentially a two TE package with an extra OL, so how does that impact the receiving packages they like to use. i would expect production from their move TE and 3rd and 4th WR's to suffer if they go big more often.

the raiders can't seem to stop the run, I think the pats should do what they did last week. lots of hand offs, with some throws sprinkled in.

mayoclinic said:

I'll toss a couple of quick thoughts into the ring.

I know the offense took a lot of heat last week, but I think that the Pats went into the game with some very specific goals in mind:

- Stop the OL hemorrhaging and keep Brady from getting killed
- Establish some run-pass balance
- Build a bit of confidence, particularly in the OL

They kept some OL continuity with Solder-Cannon-Connolly-Devey-Vollmer. I loved the use of jumbo sets with Fleming at TE and max-protect at times. I liked the running game and letting Ridley pound the ball a bit.

Obviously, Brady isn't in sync with his receivers yet, Gronk and Dobson aren't fully back, and Wright isn't up to speed. The OL is still a work in progress, though I could actually see this becoming a major new element of the offense moving forward. There's lots of work to be done, and it was baby steps. But I'm not as down as some.

Click to expand...

I think that the Raiders game is a perfect time to work on the things you mentioned in your last paragraph

mayoclinic said:

I'll toss a couple of quick thoughts into the ring.

I know the offense took a lot of heat last week, but I think that the Pats went into the game with some very specific goals in mind:

- Stop the OL hemorrhaging and keep Brady from getting killed
- Establish some run-pass balance
- Build a bit of confidence, particularly in the OL

They kept some OL continuity with Solder-Cannon-Connolly-Devey-Vollmer. I loved the use of jumbo sets with Fleming at TE and max-protect at times. I liked the running game and letting Ridley pound the ball a bit.

Obviously, Brady isn't in sync with his receivers yet, Gronk and Dobson aren't fully back, and Wright isn't up to speed. The OL is still a work in progress, though I could actually see this becoming a major new element of the offense moving forward. There's lots of work to be done, and it was baby steps. But I'm not as down as some.

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Brady was 11/12 in the first half. In the second half we had a large lead, ran a lot and 6 of his 11 throws were on 3rd or 4th down.

Ivan said:

hate to ask but if you could link to the Stanford articles again it would be helpful imo.

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No problem:

http://www.si.com/college-football/2013/12/31/stanford-cardinal-offensive-line

http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2013/9/23/4763728/stanford-cardinal-football-offensive-linemen

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ll-stanford-cardinal-offensive-line/14979515/

Ivan said:

I'm also interested in how going JUMBO limits their offensive sets and whether or not they can go fast break using that set of packages. If I'm not mistaken it is essentially a two TE package with an extra OL, so how does that impact the receiving packages they like to use. i would expect production from their move TE and 3rd and 4th WR's to suffer if they go big more often.

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Good questions. Need to chew these over.

In theory this is going to be an easy game, if it confirms in game time, I would like McDaniels to get the other receivers involved in the play calling, Lafell and Amendola, these guys needs some targets, we already know Edelman is a beast and Gronk is Gronk although he's still recovering.

Difficult to say anything about the offense yet.

The closest to what we try to be would most probably be the first half against Miami, especially the long second drive that ended with a TD. Otherwise, the OL disaster really makes the offense game tape of the Miami game almost useless, unless you want to analyze the OL struggles.

Similarly, the game in Minnesota got out of hand after the block 10 from Chandler Jones and we were mostly using our 'running the time' part of the playbook. The first half looked very similar to that successful drive against Miami.

Unless the Raiders show up to play I doubt that we will be much wiser next week.

In terms of the trenches, I hope that we can provide a stable OL with fewer jumbo sets. However, this might be linked to Gronks snaps and how successful he is with blocking I guess. Also, it will be interesting to see if Stork's snaps will increase in case the game is not close. Down the line he might be a key, especially because he will keep Wendell out.

I think the game against the Bengals in W5 will end up being the first really big test and will give us an indication where this season might go.

A pure blocking TE has been traditionally been used only is short yardage and goal line sets.

The limiting factor is straightforward. The team has one fewer receiving threat on the field.

Normally, we have 5 OL's, at least 1 RB and Brady. That totals 7 players. We have options on the other 4. We can have any combination of WR's and TE's. If a 5 wide set is needed (very, very rare), the RB can be the 5th receiver, or he can be replaced by a WR.

With 6 OL's, at least 1 RB and Brady, the total is 8, leaving ONLY 3 options. This is extremely limiting with regard to the passing game. There can be no 3 WR sets without having Gronk benched.

The "base" offense becomes a 2 WR, 1 TE offense (plus Fleming). This is extremely limiting.

TO BE BLUNT
On a passing team, it is a failure for the OL to regularly need 6 players instead of 5, understanding that with 5 OL's, the TE and the RB need help in pass protection.

Ivan said:

I'm also interested in how going JUMBO limits their offensive sets and whether or not they can go fast break using that set of packages. If I'm not mistaken it is essentially a two TE package with an extra OL, so how does that impact the receiving packages they like to use. i would expect production from their move TE and 3rd and 4th WR's to suffer if they go big more often.

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Both the Jets and Texans were able to run the ball well and i expect us to have a lead against a rookie QB. I expect a similar type of game to Minny as we win big again. Probably a lot of 2-TE sets and Edelman getting the majority of the receptions.

Blame it on whatever you choose but Brady's last in the league in yards/attempt, as in behind every single one of 35 QB's to play this year. He's also tied for last in the league for pass plays over 15yds, with 4 (tied with, um, yes, Henne).

Many other QB's are playing behind lousy lines, and/or have lousy receivers, or both, so Brady has to bear a large part of the lack of offensive firepower. See Masslive.com sports for more details, they have a good piece on it, that notes among other things, how several topflight QB's had 4 plays over 15yds in their first 10-15 attempts!

Yeah, yeah, it's only two games but it's two in the very wrong direction.

mgteich said:

With 6 OL's, at least 1 RB and Brady, the total is 8, leaving ONLY 3 options. This is extremely limiting with regard to the passing game. There can be no 3 WR sets without having Gronk benched.

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The frequent use of 6 OL in Sunday's game is precisely why I said that Belichick took the ball out of Brady's hands. I don't think Belichick had any intention of being a passing offense against the Vikings. The question is whether the decision to emphasize the run was a one-time thing or indicative of a MAJOR shift away from the Air Belichick offense we have grown accustomed to seeing.

mgteich said:

A pure blocking TE has been traditionally been used only is short yardage and goal line sets.

The limiting factor is straightforward. The team has one fewer receiving threat on the field.

Normally, we have 5 OL's, at least 1 RB and Brady. That totals 7 players. We have options on the other 4. We can have any combination of WR's and TE's. If a 5 wide set is needed (very, very rare), the RB can be the 5th receiver, or he can be replaced by a WR.

With 6 OL's, at least 1 RB and Brady, the total is 8, leaving ONLY 3 options. This is extremely limiting with regard to the passing game. There can be no 3 WR sets without having Gronk benched.

The "base" offense becomes a 2 WR, 1 TE offense (plus Fleming). This is extremely limiting.

TO BE BLUNT
On a passing team, it is a failure for the OL to regularly need 6 players instead of 5, understanding that with 5 OL's, the TE and the RB need help in pass protection.

Click to expand...

I think you're being a bit conventional in your thinking. A number of teams are using jumbo OL packages not merely in short yardage and goal line sets, but to overpower opposing defenses and make them make adjustments. You have one less receiving option, but the opposing defense has to bring more guys up in the box, opening up some opportunities.

I disagree with your last statement. The goal is not to be a "passing team", but to move the chains. I understand that if you are in the spread with an empty backfield that requiring more blockers decreases your receiving options. But with a running back you open up play action. Stanford averages about 40 runs/game and about 20 passes, and most of the latter are play action passes.

Here's a nice read from Bucky Brooks on the importance of power running sets for playoff teams:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap20...ue-top-nfl-teams-utilize-powerrunning-schemes

In his film breakdown, there are several nice examples of playoff caliber teams using a 6 man jumbo OL (plus TEs), including both Seattle and New Orleans (a "passing team" by most people's definition). Brooks notes:

To effectively defend in the NFL, coaches must routinely craft strategies that add an additional player to the box as a method for stopping the run. In theory, this would put eight defenders in the box against two-back sets and seven defenders in the box against one-back formations. With the quarterback ignored as a runner, the extra defender is often the free hitter in the alley. Against jumbo sets, however, the numerical advantage is essentially nullified, with the split end or flanker replaced by an additional tight end or offensive tackle positioned at the end of the line. Part of this is due to the alignment of the wide receiver. Most defensive coordinators are reluctant to leave a cornerback on an island (without safety help) against a talented pass catcher; thus, at least one defender is pulled away from the box. In addition, the presence of an extra offensive lineman positioned at the tight end spot creates a significant size and weight advantage at the point of attack.

This subtle tactic was reserved for savvy offensive coordinators in years past, but more and more teams are incorporating quasi-unbalanced lines to create a physical and numerical advantage at the line of scrimmage. The simple maneuver should be easy to defend -- the defense can just bump over to the direction of the heavy side -- but a misalignment or botched assignment results in a huge crease in the middle.

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I don't know the answer to Ivan's question, but I don't think it's as simple as "on a passing team, it is a failure for the OL to regularly need 6 players instead of 5".

I re-watched the game and for the most part this was some of the best playcalling I have seen from McDaniels in a long time. I loved the commitment to the run, even on the first drive. The only thing I didn't like on the first drive was that the first two runs only got us a total of two yards before running and almost getting the first down on the third run.

Brady actually played pretty well. There were only a total of three throws that I had an issue with. The deep pass on 3rd&2 to Edelman that fell incomplete shouldn't have been attempted when he had very little separation and he threw another deep ball to Edelman that resulted in dpi but he wasn't really open that time either. The last throw I had an issue with was late in the game when Brady had time on 3rd&14 and basically threw it away in Amendola's direction.

After re-watching the game I was actually impressed with Amendola and Lafell. They are virtually the same player. They both are great blockers,run routes without really tipping their hands, and are decent after the catch. Neither of them show much shake in their routes compared to Edelman and Thompkins but they efficiently do their job as role players.

Now the bad. I am still underwhelmed by Hooman's blocking and Cannon doesn't seem to sustain his blocks long enough for Ridley. Bolden looked bad.

mayoclinic said:

I think you're being a bit conventional in your thinking. A number of teams are using jumbo OL packages not merely in short yardage and goal line sets, but to overpower opposing defenses and make them make adjustments. You have one less receiving option, but the opposing defense has to bring more guys up in the box, opening up some opportunities.

I disagree with your last statement. The goal is not to be a "passing team", but to move the chains. I understand that if you are in the spread with an empty backfield that requiring more blockers decreases your receiving options. But with a running back you open up play action. Stanford averages about 40 runs/game and about 20 passes, and most of the latter are play action passes.

Here's a nice read from Bucky Brooks on the importance of power running sets for playoff teams:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap20...ue-top-nfl-teams-utilize-powerrunning-schemes

In his film breakdown, there are several nice examples of playoff caliber teams using a 6 man jumbo OL (plus TEs), including both Seattle and New Orleans (a "passing team" by most people's definition). Brooks notes:



I don't know the answer to Ivan's question, but I don't think it's as simple as "on a passing team, it is a failure for the OL to regularly need 6 players instead of 5".

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I have but one statement to clarify. I did not say our goal is "to be" a passing team. I don't believe that. I like the balance. HOWEVER, as long as Tom Brady is the quarterback of the patriots, we "ARE" a passing team. That we will be more balanced, or sometimes emphasize the run for a whole game, does NOT change the fact that we ARE passing team.