Discuss the defense

mgteich said:

No, Quarles doesn't have to be an upgrade over Vellano, who is able to start or be inactive as needed.

Click to expand...

You misunderstood what I meant. Quarles is an upgrade over Vellano IMO, whether he's inactive or forced into action at the bottom of the depth chart. He has more strength to not get pushed around, and more "pop" to generate some pressure, both of which are upgrades over Vellano. I wasn't suggesting that he should be competing for playing time at this point, except as a last resort.

mgteich said:

Why wouldn't Ebner continue in the dime? If Dennard is healthy, he might be the dime (or Ryan).

Click to expand...

Huh? Im saying in nickel and dime with Collins back the DEs are HT and jones and nink is their backup. Not sure what ever has to do with that

AndyJohnson said:

No I never said that.

Click to expand...

You definitely did.

AndyJohnson said:

Confusion? NFL offenses know how to block a 34.
How does a 34 create mismatches?

Click to expand...

mgteich said:

???

DT's
Vellano had on;y 2 reps. It didn't matter much whether he was active or not. Yes, 4-5 active DT's. Without Vellano, we'd have 4.

DE/LB
Chandler Jones and Ninkovich played 100% of the reps, only a bit more than last year's numbers. I agree that having Buchanan healthy would help. Having Collins healthy will also help.

Click to expand...

It matters if Vellano is active or not because that's one other useful player we can use.

Joey007 said:

With Hightower's surgence as a pass rusher, I feel as though we suddenly have a very deep group of guys who can get after the QB-

Chandler Jones
Hightower
Ninkovich
Collins
Easley
Chris Jones

That's not even including other guys like Mayo and Wilfork who can get after the QB from time to time.

Click to expand...

I feel like if Collins is a go for the Oakland game that there may be a few times that BB sends the house (Hightower, Mayo, Collins) against Carr.

DarrylS said:

The Defensive Snaps according to Reiss.. a lot of guys got some game time reps in this game.

INSIDE LINEBACKER
Jerod Mayo -- 68 of 68
Dont'a Hightower -- 68 of 68
Deontae Skinner -- 21 of 68

DEFENSIVE END/OUTSIDE LINEBACKER
Rob Ninkovich -- 68 of 68
Chandler Jones -- 68 of 68

DEFENSIVE TACKLE
Sealver Siliga -- 40 of 68
Vince Wilfork -- 39 of 68
Dominique Easley -- 29 of 68
Chris Jones -- 16 of 68
Joe Vellano -- 2 of 68

CORNERBACK
Logan Ryan -- 68 of 68
Darrelle Revis -- 60 of 68
Kyle Arrington -- 45 of 68
Malcolm Butler -- 8 of 68

SAFETY
Devin McCourty -- 60 of 68
Patrick Chung -- 37 of 68
Duron Harmon -- 25 of 68
Tavon Wilson -- 13 of 68
Nate Ebner -- 13 of 68

Click to expand...

SOME THOUGHTS ON THE NUMBER OF REPS
=======
FRONT SEVEN

The defensive sets seem to be working well.

We have our 4 DT's for a reasonable rotation. We have our 5 DE/LB's for our rotation (including Skinner who didn't play.

With Collins and Buchanan back, we'll be better off, although having 2 nicked up is fairly normal.

Personally, I think Vellano is OK #5 DT, playing significant reps only if there ar a couple of injuries.

May be Skinner will improve, or Fleming will return. In any case, we are a bit thin at LB.
===============

CORNERS

Congrats to Ryan! We looked good with Revis, Ryan and Arrington as our corners. (Butler played one series of garbage time, giving Revis a rest).

We'll see what happens when Dennard and Browner are back. Their roles are not clear. It seems unlikely that Ebner would still be a dime back. It seems that there need be no rush to bring Dennard
and Browner back.

SAFETIES

Chung/Harmon seem to be working out well as our second corner. Ebner played dime. I'm not sure when Wilson was in. In any case, the safeties seem to be doing fine, a surprise for many.

In the end, our S2 does not have to be great. He will look pretty good with McCourty opposite and with our greatly improved corners.
=======
THOUGHTS ON 2014 UDFA's AND LATE ROUNDERS
Butler and Moore are at the bottom of the roster, and should soon be regular inactives. This has been a very difficult roster for UDFA's and late rounders to crack. It is a tribute to the quality of the team. I think it a poor analysis to whine over why particular UDFA's or late rounders didn't make the team. I was even surprised that Moore made the team.

Ivan said:

He's as good a runstopping LB as there is in the league, he's a beast in that regard, but he is as bad in coverage as he is good against the run, and he's also about as undisciplined a player as they get and is always at risk of doing something really stupid. They let him go because he wanted 3 down money and he's really a role player. They will miss him against the run but at least they will be able to stop other teams in 3rd down passing situations, where he was a massive liability.

Click to expand...

.... and it should be noted that Spikes played just 15 of 51 snaps this past game. I guess his true value is as a cheerleader.

Marqui said:

You definitely did.

Click to expand...

Not the same thing
Disguising a blitz and confusing an offense by lining up in a 34 are two different things.

If the team really wants to run a 3-4, hopefully when everyone is healthy (would be nice to see everyone against an inept Raiders team) then surely the best option for the 3 would be a combination of: Wilfork, Siliga, Chris Jones & Easley.

Chandler Jones & Rob Ninkovich at OLB with Hightower, Collins & Buchanan all being able to rotate to play on the outside to give Jones/Nink a rest.

AndyJohnson said:

Not the same thing
Disguising a blitz and confusing an offense by lining up in a 34 are two different things.

Click to expand...

Well, you were wrong about they were never going to run a 3-4 base and the only reason they were using it in TC/preseason was to "evaluate more DL".

Marqui said:

Well, you were wrong about they were never going to run a 3-4 base and the only reason they were using it in TC/preseason was to "evaluate more DL".

Click to expand...

No. I consistently said 34 or 43 didn't matter but they wouldn't run a base 34 with 3 300 lb dl and both jones and nink as OLBs. And I was 100% correct. You should read what I said before you say I was wrong. The entire point of that discussion was the personnel not the alignment.

Big-T said:

If the team really wants to run a 3-4, hopefully when everyone is healthy (would be nice to see everyone against an inept Raiders team) then surely the best option for the 3 would be a combination of: Wilfork, Siliga, Chris Jones & Easley.

Chandler Jones & Rob Ninkovich at OLB with Hightower, Collins & Buchanan all being able to rotate to play on the outside to give Jones/Nink a rest.

Click to expand...

Definitely not as that kills the pass rush. The reason we moved to a 43 was to have 2 bigs and 2 pass rushers on the front 4. We didn't move to a 34 on order to go in the opposite direction.
Our 34 will have nink or jones playing de and the other one as OLB switching back and forth due to shifting the dl toward strength.

AndyJohnson said:

Definitely not as that kills the pass rush. The reason we moved to a 43 was to have 2 bigs and 2 pass rushers on the front 4. We didn't move to a 34 on order to go in the opposite direction.
Our 34 will have nink or jones playing de and the other one as OLB switching back and forth due to shifting the dl toward strength.

Click to expand...

It doesn't necessarily kill the pass rush; Pittsburgh & Baltimore are 3-4 teams that tend to have a good pass rush with a big 3 man front. It's all down to how good the scheme is though, there should be enough pass rush with Collins, Jones x2, Ninkovich & Easley without getting too exotic.

Having Chandler Jones/Nink at DE in a 3-4 doesn't put either of them in a position to be at their best as either pass rushers or run stoppers either.

Does anyone have a solid analysis of what changed on the defensive side between offensive drive 1 for the Vikings and the next couple? I was at the legion, a bit distracted for those drives.

It seemed wheel routes and dumps owned us on dive 1. Someone get injured? Pats wake up?

Big-T said:

If the team really wants to run a 3-4, hopefully when everyone is healthy (would be nice to see everyone against an inept Raiders team) then surely the best option for the 3 would be a combination of: Wilfork, Siliga, Chris Jones & Easley.

Chandler Jones & Rob Ninkovich at OLB with Hightower, Collins & Buchanan all being able to rotate to play on the outside to give Jones/Nink a rest.

Click to expand...

I think the point is that we aren't really playing a 3-4 in the traditional sense. We're playing a very sophisticated predominant 3-4 variation as part of a multi-front hybrid defense in which BB is deliberately sacrificing some size and length in favor of versatility, quickness, pass rush capability. The 2 features that Andy has identified based on Sunday's game are:

(1) The use of a lighter 5-tech, either Chandler Jones or Rob Ninkovich
(2) The ability to switch each of these guys between the 5-tech and OLB positions.

I would add the ability to switch the number of players on the line, and to switch the spacing on the line.

Assuming Mayo and Collins as LBs, without changing personnel (very important against up-tempo offenses) the Pats should be able to do the following:

- Easley/Chris Jones (5-tech) - Wilfork/Siliga (NT) - Chandler Jones (5-tech), with Hightower and Ninkovich as the OLBs
- Ninkovich (5-tech) - Wilfork/Siliga (NT) - Easley/Chris Jones (5-tech), with Chandler Jones and Hightower as the OLBs
- Easley/Chris Jones (5-tech) - Wilfork/Siliga (NT) - Chandler Jones (3-Tech) - Ninkovich (5- or 7-tech), with Hightower as the SAM LB.
- Ninkovich (5- or 7- tech) - Wilfork/Siliga (NT) - Easley/Chris Jones (3-Tech) - Chandler Jones (5- or 7-tech), with Hightower as the SAM LB
- Ninkovich (5-, 7- or 9-tech) - Easley/Siliga (3-Tech) - Wilfork/Siliga (NT) - Chandler Jones (3-Tech) - Hightower (5-, 7- or 9-tech)

The Pats can certainly rotate in a bigger player at the other 5-tech, but they are giving up some pass rush capability in doing so. They appear to consciously be using a smaller, quicker line that they can vary to create confusion and different match ups.

Big-T said:

It doesn't necessarily kill the pass rush; Pittsburgh & Baltimore are 3-4 teams that tend to have a good pass rush with a big 3 man front. It's all down to how good the scheme is though, there should be enough pass rush with Collins, Jones x2, Ninkovich & Easley without getting too exotic.

Having Chandler Jones/Nink at DE in a 3-4 doesn't put either of them in a position to be at their best as either pass rushers or run stoppers either.

Click to expand...

This had been argued to death and bb has shown he wants to play a base that had 2 300 job DT types and 5 250-270 lb DE/OLB types for 3 years now. That had not changed with the 34. I see no sense I continuing that argument after bb had already proven that is what he is going to do.

Baboon said:

Does anyone have a solid analysis of what changed on the defensive side between offensive drive 1 for the Vikings and the next couple? I was at the legion, a bit distracted for those drives.

It seemed wheel routes and dumps owned us on dive 1. Someone get injured? Pats wake up?

Click to expand...

We played nickel more frequently as the game wore on. Skinner got targeted on that first drive. But he played 21 snaps all game and I would guess about 8 of them were just in that first drive.

Scheme aside, one player I've been very impressed with but why wouldn't I be is Wilfork. He looks quicker and has gotten pressure both inside and when he's been on the end (remember his first year he played DE a fair bit in 3-4).

mayoclinic said:

I think the point is that we aren't really playing a 3-4 in the traditional sense. We're playing a very sophisticated predominant 3-4 variation as part of a multi-front hybrid defense in which BB is deliberately sacrificing some size and length in favor of versatility, quickness, pass rush capability. The 2 features that Andy has identified based on Sunday's game are:

(1) The use of a lighter 5-tech, either Chandler Jones or Rob Ninkovich
(2) The ability to switch each of these guys between the 5-tech and OLB positions.

I would add the ability to switch the number of players on the line, and to switch the spacing on the line.

Assuming Mayo and Collins as LBs, without changing personnel (very important against up-tempo offenses) the Pats should be able to do the following:

- Easley/Chris Jones (5-tech) - Wilfork/Siliga (NT) - Chandler Jones (5-tech), with Hightower and Ninkovich as the OLBs
- Ninkovich (5-tech) - Wilfork/Siliga (NT) - Easley/Chris Jones (5-tech), with Chandler Jones and Hightower as the OLBs
- Easley/Chris Jones (5-tech) - Wilfork/Siliga (NT) - Chandler Jones (3-Tech) - Ninkovich (5- or 7-tech), with Hightower as the SAM LB.
- Ninkovich (5- or 7- tech) - Wilfork/Siliga (NT) - Easley/Chris Jones (3-Tech) - Chandler Jones (5- or 7-tech), with Hightower as the SAM LB
- Ninkovich (5-, 7- or 9-tech) - Easley/Siliga (3-Tech) - Wilfork/Siliga (NT) - Chandler Jones (3-Tech) - Hightower (5-, 7- or 9-tech)

The Pats can certainly rotate in a bigger player at the other 5-tech, but they are giving up some pass rush capability in doing so. They appear to consciously be using a smaller, quicker line that they can vary to create confusion and different match ups.

Click to expand...

I strongly agree on the generalities, but maybe not on the specifics of what fronts we might see. It's an interesting approach and one worth watching, as it promises to develop over the course of the season. These first two weeks the hybrid defense has featured a read-and-react approach in most running situations, but that doesn't mean that there won't be a more attack-minded approach at times during the season.

The example fronts you provided often show Wilfork and Siliga as interchangeable players, when the two of them are on the field together quite often. In these cases, it's been Siliga at NT and Wilfork at 3-tech on the strong side. That could obviously flip, if the offense shifts their TE pre-snap.

You also have a couple of fronts where Chandler Jones is at 3-tech in the 3-4 base. I don't think that we'll see much, if any, of this. He'll be at 5-tech or OLB, unless the Pats are in a nickel, where he is viewed as a match-up advantage on the inside, but I suspect that Easley will be the speed guy on the inside then. That said, I do think that we will see a lot of 3-3 nickel with Jones at either 3-tech ir 5-tech DE, depending on how the offensive formation aligns.

Jeff Howe looks at the defensive front 7 from last week:

http://bostonherald.com/sports/patr...s/2014/09/patriots_front_7_pulls_complete_180