Goodell sets up VP of "social responsibility"...

PatsFanSince74 said:

another red herring, deus.

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OK, do you not know what a red herring is, or are you just determined to clown yourself? I wrote that response specifically to one poster who'd disagreed with the facts that you just said

I would be willing to stipulate that the facts are along those lines

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.

I say he disagreed with the facts of it, because that's specifically what the post I'd made contained the claim about, which I quoted in the post you just responded to while claiming I was tossing out the herring rouge:

The NFL has lower rates of criminality, and domestic violence, than the general population.

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There's no red herring there. There's no straw man there. There's not "consider the source" there.

There's me stating facts, NFLMac disagreeing with facts, and now you calling a 100% on point response a red herring.

Let's consider us done discussing this issue, because you're getting crazier by the post.

I agree with your comments.

However, there is a MAJOR difference here. We are discussing an employer who penalizes players for behavior outside the workplace.

SB39 said:

Oh that's absolutely what they are for. I can't help but think about the business world. When a woman sues for sexual harassment her lawyer loves to tell the judge and jury that company ABC encourages sexual harassment because they don't have any prevention training in place. So companies institute training policies and all the rest of us need to waste hours being told that it's inappropriate to send pictures of out genitalia to co-workers.

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So many think that the NFL should police the private behavior of the employees of its member teams.

There are obviously many CBA issues which the NFL must police. Some rules involve private behavior. That is not the case here.

The OPEN issues are

1) What punishments should the NFL add to those dictated by society? If there is a law against spanking or using a switch to discipline your child, then the police will punish such offenses. I have the same view with regard to drugs, other than drugs that enhance performance.

2) What punishments should the NFL impose while an individual has not been tried, or perhaps not even arraigned?

3) What team punishments should be allowed or prohibited, before conviction, after conviction, or perhaps for those not even guilty of a crime?

[QUOTE="Deus Irae, post: 3908654, member: 5686"

Try to grasp the obvious, because it's factual: The NFL is not a police force. Outside of the framework of the CBA. the NFL has no business policing individuals (in this case the NFL players), which aren't even its employees, for criminal issues. This isn't opinion.[/QUOTE]

PatsFanSince74 said:

Those are the facts. And, when people in "the general population" behave in that way, they are put in jail or otherwise punished in a manner that society feels reflects the gravity of the crime. The NFL failed to apply a similar standard to its players.

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To be clear, if a player commits a crime, say DUI, the society should mete out its punishment and the NFL should mete out an additional punishment? In addition, the NFL should impose some punishments before there is any conviction?

QUESTION

What crimes should the NFL punish and when should they punish (before arraignment? After conviction?

Should the NFL punish tax evaders? Folks accused of DUI?

Apparently some folks think that the NFL should view a video and kick the guy out of the league indefinitely. In this way the NFL augment the legal process and have its own systems of laws and punishment. Even AFTER the fact, the NFL has decided that the punishment should be six games in addition to the punishments set out by society.

THE REAL QUESTION
Why should the NFL add punishments to those that the society has decided upon?

There are indeed work-related issues than are punished by employers. After all, workers can be punished for being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, even where they are legal. There are lots and lots of appearance and workplace issues that are punished, as is reasonable.

Personally, I think that Peterson can and should sue the Vikings for his one week of lost pay (and any incentives lost). The alternative is the players are employees at will, subject to firing at the whim of the owner.

Rice is considering his appeal the rulings by the league. And contrary to the public nonsense, he will work again in the NFL. If Rice has wronged his wife, as he obviously has, she can sue him for lots and lots of money. The issue is not the business of the NFL. it is a police and legal matter.

The NFL certainly can decide to make no felonies a condition of continued employment. And teams can certainly suspend players who are arrested, depending on the terms of the CBA. Beyond this. lies
the slippery slope.
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JUST BY THE WAY
I am NOT commenting on what punishments society should mete our for spousal abuse or excessive child discipline. That is for society to decide though its institutions. It happens that I believe that these crimes are not given a high enough sentence. More importantly, there are biases in who get sentenced to longer terms. BTW, I would add felony DUI (resulting in harm or death) to the list of crimes where the sentence is not high enough.

In any case, it is not the NFL's business to decide what punishment should given for certain crimes, although it certainly can decided not to hire prior felons. Personally, I don't see why the NFL would do this. This may be important for banks or security firms. It is not important for the NFL. Are we to not allow those convicted of stealing a car from ever playing in the NFL?

Jackson 2 said:

No, you're at least partly wrong. The video element of the situation may, or may not, have been unprecedented, but the domestic abuse element isn't.

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Which is why I threw the "video" part in there. I certainly wasn't suggesting this was the first incident of domestic violence in the NFL.

Jackson 2 said:

There have been domestic abuse violations for years in the NFL and now it just suddenly dawns on the Commissioner to take this step?

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We're all hypocrites to this end. There have indeed been domestic violence incidents in the NFL for years and until there was video of one such incident, no one gave a ****. Not you, not me, not the media, not anyone.

There have been 56 players arrested for dometic violence under Goodell who were given a grand total of 13 games suspension. Nary a peep was heard from the media or fanbase or talk radio or twitter or ESPN until someone got caught on video.

Jackson 2 said:

His primary motivation is not to attempt to solve the abuse problem. It's to give the appearance of trying to solve it as a response to mucking this up as badly as it can be mucked up. Don't try to sell Goodell to me as some type of progressive solver of societal problems, ' cause I ain't buyin' it. And I don't think I'm alone.

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I am not canonizing the guy for sainthood. I am saying I like the changes the NFL is implementing and just because they are coming late doesn't mean they shouldn't come at all.

SB39 said:

Which is why I threw the "video" part in there. I certainly wasn't suggesting this was the first incident of domestic violence in the NFL.
We're all hypocrites to this end. There have indeed been domestic violence incidents in the NFL for years and until there was video of one such incident, no one gave a ****. Not you, not me, not the media, not anyone.

There have been 56 players arrested for dometic violence under Goodell who were given a grand total of 13 games suspension. Nary a peep was heard from the media or fanbase or talk radio or twitter or ESPN until someone got caught on video.
I am not canonizing the guy for sainthood. I am saying I like the changes the NFL is implementing and just because they are coming late doesn't mean they shouldn't come at all.

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You don't know me so don't tell me what I don't give a ****about or do give a **** about, particularly when it comes to issues such as domestic abuse and/or child abuse. That's about as arrogant and presumptuous as it gets. If you sense you've struck a nerve with this one, you're correct, and for you that's a rarity.

I work for a privately held consulting firm. I also hold credentials from a professional association. The firm and the professional association each have a code of conduct. Adherence to each code is a condition of employment (firm) and continued membership (association). Non-adherence means that I could lose my job and/or credentials.

No one has forced the NFL to adopt these discipline policies. The owners have chosen to do so of their own volition because they feel it is in their best interests to do so. Their motivation may be economic or altruistic. Either way, it was their choice. They are not policing an anything as much as they are guarding their own interests.

Wouldn't it be funny if she was the one that received the tape and said it was terrible. Then the NFL would have to fire her to cover their arses.

Jackson 2 said:

You don't know me so don't tell me what I don't give a ****about or do give a **** about, particularly when it comes to issues such as domestic abuse and/or child abuse. That's about as arrogant and presumptuous as it gets. If you sense you've struck a nerve with this one, you're correct, and for you that's a rarity.

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If you can show me where you have posted on this subject in the past (before Ray Rice) calling for stricter punishment for NFLers arrested for domestic violence, I will certainly apologize. Until then, I stand by my statement.

56 arrests, grand total of 13 games suspensions - and no one cared.

SB39 said:

If you can show me where you have posted on this subject in the past (before Ray Rice) calling for stricter punishment for NFLers arrested for domestic violence, I will certainly apologize. Until then, I stand by my statement.

56 arrests, grand total of 13 games suspensions - and no one cared.

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Screw off.

Jackson 2 said:

Screw off.

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Dude you need to seriously relax. I'm not talking about any of our personal lives here. I'm talking about the media and fan base reaction to prior incidents of domestic violence in the NFL. No one cared until Ray Rice. Not ESPN, NOW, Florio, King, Olbermann, mediots or fans (including you and me, Charlie). The level of outrage prior to Ray Rice was virtually nil.

Take a chill pill and relax. You'll live longer.

SB39 said:

Dude you need to seriously relax. I'm not talking about any of our personal lives here. I'm talking about the media and fan base reaction to prior incidents of domestic violence in the NFL. No one cared until Ray Rice. Not ESPN, NOW, Florio, King, Olbermann, mediots or fans (including you and me, Charlie). The level of outrage prior to Ray Rice was virtually nil.

Take a chill pill and relax. You'll live longer.

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Screw off.

Jackson 2 said:

Yeah you're right, only instead of admitting you have a point I am just going to throw a temper tantrum.

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FIFY

SB39 said:

FIFY

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Screw off.

Jackson 2 said:

Screw off.

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Still waiting for you to prove me wrong. Please show us a single post you made (prior to Ray Rice) where you demonstrated real outrage at the NFL's domestic violence policy, or at a player accused of same.

Something tells me I will be waiting forever. You didn't give a **** about this issue until about a week ago.

SB39 said:

Still waiting for you to prove me wrong. Please show us a single post you made (prior to Ray Rice) where you demonstrated real outrage at the NFL's domestic violence policy, or at a player accused of same.

Something tells me I will be waiting forever. You didn't give a **** about this issue until about a week ago.

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So, now it's show "us?" Who else is demanding whatever it is your'e looking for? And just my outrage won't be enough, now, it has to be "real outrage?" Who TF do you think you are? Since we're on the subject of demands, I demand you show me a post where you admitted you may have made a mistake or not expressed something correctly? How about one where you weren't combative, obnoxious, intolerant or dismissive of others' viewpoints? On second thought, don't bother. I'll go back to my original reaction to you: Screw off. My instances of responding to you are over. Go to the Giants' board with the rest of your Big Blue, er Big Blew fans. See ya.

Look, Jacks, you say "screw off " one more time and I'm gonna end up getting busted for drunk driving. I already screwed off five suds bottle tops and working on a sixth...I could get in serious trouble, even though I'm only driving a lounge chair in my den. In fact , the neighbors just called the cops and an officer came over to give me a breathalyzer...and when he checked my alcohol he found it contained 2% blood!..

Jackson 2 said:

So, now it's show "us?"

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Really? That's your reply? OK:

Please show me a single post you made (prior to Ray Rice) where you demonstrated real outrage at the NFL's domestic violence policy, or at a player accused of same.

Something tells me I will be waiting forever. You didn't give a **** about this issue until about a week ago.

Wassa matta? Truth hurt? It put up or shut up time! (And yet, everyone knows you will do neither)

Joker said:

Look, Jacks, you say "screw off " one more time and I'm gonna end up getting busted for drunk driving. I already screwed off five suds bottle tops and working on a sixth...I could get in serious trouble, even though I'm only driving a lounge chair in my den. In fact , the neighbors just called the cops and an officer came over to give me a breathalyzer...and when he checked my alcohol he found it contained 2% blood!..

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Joe, here's what you do: invite your neighbors over for beers and when they arrive? You guessed it - tell 'em to screw off...