Discuss the defense

RayClay said:

This is totally false, unless you think all the Patriots Super Bowl teams were lucky. Great defenses force mistakes and turnovers constantly.

http://www.boston.com/sports/footba...05/10/12/patriots_hope_to_turn_over_new_leaf/

Check our wins against Peyton over the years. It's not because he happens to be careless. Without being forced into mistakes, he usually destroys defenses.

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I'm not talking about the glory days. I'm referring to the current Patriots. Yesterday's showing notwithstanding, they have not consistently brought the pressure to force mistakes. The times when they have gotten turnovers is when they are ahead, typically due to the offense, and shift from a read-and-react run-stopping mode to attacking pass disrupting mode.

Great defenses bring pressure in a number of ways. Some shoot gaps and try to break-up plays, risking giving-up a big play or two in the process. Some dominate the LOS to shut down the run and make for some 3rd and longs, which enables pressure. The Pats take away an offense's best weapon(s) to get them out of their comfort zone a can bring pressure after a missed play or two. These approaches are all valid, but the Pats have often traded drives with the opposition in the past couple years, and it becomes a contest of who blinks first. Having discipline helps win the turnover battle, but it is not a reliable approach, unless you can bring the pressure to force the turnover.

pencilneckgeek said:

I'm not talking about the glory days. I'm referring to the current Patriots. Yesterday's showing notwithstanding, they have not consistently brought the pressure to force mistakes. The times when they have gotten turnovers is when they are ahead, typically due to the offense, and shift from a read-and-react run-stopping mode to attacking pass disrupting mode.

Great defenses bring pressure in a number of ways. Some shoot gaps and try to break-up plays, risking giving-up a big play or two in the process. Some dominate the LOS to shut down the run and make for some 3rd and longs, which enables pressure. The Pats take away an offense's best weapon(s) to get them out of their comfort zone a can bring pressure after a missed play or two. These approaches are all valid, but the Pats have often traded drives with the opposition in the past couple years, and it becomes a contest of who blinks first. Having discipline helps win the turnover battle, but it is not a reliable approach, unless you can bring the pressure to force the turnover.

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I thought you were talking about yesterday, when they brought a ton of pressure and played aggressive pass defense.

So, what exactly are you talking about, if not the defense on the field; that is, this year's defense?

I posted this in another thread, but its appropriate here.
I went back and reveiwed the film, and here is how the defense schemed yesterday.

I'll start with the second half because thats easiest and most appropriate to this point.
We played almost exclusively 4-2 nickel in the second half. We played maybe 5 snaps of 34 base, if that and also a handful of 3-2 dime.
Hightower didn't play DE with Jones rushing from inside all day.
His pass rush was exclusively as a blitzer when we sent 5 or more, which we did a lot of.
In all nickel and dime packages Hightower aligned off the ball in the vicinity of where a 34 ILB would align, except for blitz packages when he cheated up to the LOS (usually near the B gap) and blitzed.

These are the schemes we played, which a rough estimate of how much, and personell used.

BASE
We played 34 base. Wilfork was on the DL mostly with Silinga, Jones and Easley rotated in a bit. Vellano played less than 5 snaps.
Hightower played weak OLB.
Mayo and the rookie were the ILBs.
The DL shifted to strength making either Nink or Jones the Strong OLB depending upon formation, the other one played DE.
We played some snaps with '3 bigs' Wilfork, Jones, Siliga (I'm guessing somewhere between 5 and 10 of them) with Nink and Jones as OLBs and Mayo and Hightower ILBs. This is clearly a run heavy D that we will use situationally and opponent specifically.

We played a handful of 43 snaps, with the same personell. The major difference was the LBs were further inside and BOTH Nink and Jones had contain.
Sub packages were primarily the 42 nickel. Chris Jones, Easely and Wilfork were the DTs.
We played a few snaps of 33 nickel which was basically the 34 described above with a LB (Skinner) out and a DB in.
We played a little 3-2 dime, which was interesting with Easely on the nose and Jones and Nink at DE.
Mayo and HT at LBs.

In the end this was pretty much the same scheme that we played vs Miami, but offensive personnel groups, game plan and score made it look different. Jones was standing up more, because Nink was in a 3 point stance more because the Vikes went strong more often to a different side of the field that the Dolphins.
I think if Collins were healthy, we would have seen Nink coming off the field in sub with Hightower taking his DE place and Collins taking the LB spot HT was playing yesterday.
HT did not play DE at all yesterday, but did vs the Dolphins, so it seems Collins being out got Nink more reps.

doesntmatter1 said:

At one point it looked like I saw Ebner replace Skinner. Can anyone verify this for me? Thank you.

Also, besides Melvin Ingram, Easley may be the stoutest dt under 300lbs I have seen in years.

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No Ebner played in dime.

VrabelJr said:

Secondary play was near perfect. I can count on one hand the gaffes in our secondary, most were Logan Ryan related but he still played good overall and of course he is going to get targeted.

If our front seven plays the way they did today I think we have a top 10 defense because our secondary can cover with the best of them.

Formation wise, I can't wait to go through and watch more closely but I have rewatched a few plays already. I sawWilfork at 3-tech RDT/DE, Jones and Ninkovich at 5-tech DEs with Easley at NT on 3rd down. Ninkovich seemed to be playing 5-tech LDE the entire game.

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mayoclinic said:

If that's correct - and from Reiss' defensive snap count, I suspect it is - then Ninkovich is a god. The guy can do just about anything, and do it well.

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See my post above.
In the second half we barely played base, so both Jones and Nink were playing 42 nickel DE.
In the first half when we played base, we shifted to strength making one a 5tech and the other standing up outside as a '34 OLB' but playing much like a 43 DE.
It happened that Nink ended up in 5tech most of the time this week, while Jones did last week, simply because of formation. HT flipped sides to be outside the 5tech on the weak side.
The rest is in the other post.

RayClay said:

I thought you were talking about yesterday, when they brought a ton of pressure and played aggressive pass defense.

So, what exactly are you talking about, if not the defense on the field; that is, this year's defense?

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We blitzed A LOT yesterday.
So much that people thought HT was lined up as a pass rusher when he lined up every snap as a LB.

Bombdog said:

I'm really liking Hightower's play. He is playing with an attitude. He really looks good rushing the QB. Also Easley looks good like the way they are working him in. Has the season goes on this defense could be top 5

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We saw it last year vs the Colts.
In my opinion Hightower is going to be the guy on this defense that we scheme with and opponents scheme against.
He won't be coming off the field, and he will show up in the running game, in coverage and rushing the passer.

AndyJohnson said:

In my opinion Hightower is going to be the guy on this defense that we scheme with and opponents scheme against.
He won't be coming off the field, and he will show up in the running game, in coverage and rushing the passer.

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That could apply to Collins, too, if he can improve his run defense.

mayoclinic said:

That could apply to Collins, too, if he can improve his run defense.

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True. Since we played the majority of the snaps in sub yesterday, Collins would see a lot time in the position HT played, while HT figures to replace Nink (because thats what they did week 1) but there is the dynamic that they could be somewhat interchangable.

AndyJohnson said:

We played 34 base. Wilfork was on the DL mostly with Silinga, Jones and Easley rotated in a bit. Vellano played less than 5 snaps.
Hightower played weak OLB.
Mayo and the rookie were the ILBs.
The DL shifted to strength making either Nink or Jones the Strong OLB depending upon formation, the other one played DE.

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Andy, thanks for your useful analysis. I'm not nitpicking, and I haven't seen the full game yet, but I'm a bit confused by how the numbers add up. Reiss reports that both Nink and Jones played all 68 defensive snaps, along with Mayo and Hightower:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-...195/patriots-defensive-snaps-skinner-chips-in

That leaves 2 additional spots in sub and 3 in base. It sounds like Skinner basically played MLB in the base (21/68 snaps) and came off in sub, and that Wilfork, Siliga, Easley and Chris Jones rotated to fill 2 of the lineman positions (124 snaps combined between those 4 players) with Chandler Jones and Ninkovich rotating to fill the other DE spot and the other playing LB. Is that correct?

I would assume that when Jamie Collins is back he will get a lot more snaps than Skinner did. Either we'll play more base, with Collins' coverage ability making up some of the slack, or we'll see some substitution among Collins/Hightower/Nink/Jones, or we'll have to see an adjustment to the above.

mayoclinic said:

Andy, thanks for your useful analysis. I'm not nitpicking, and I haven't seen the full game yet, but I'm a bit confused by how the numbers add up. Reiss reports that both Nink and Jones played all 68 defensive snaps, along with Mayo and Hightower:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-...195/patriots-defensive-snaps-skinner-chips-in

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Nink and Jones- base 34 one is strong OLB other WDE. Sub both are DEs.
Mayo. ILB in base LB in sub
Hightower. WOLB in base LB in sub

That leaves 2 additional spots in sub and 3 in base. It sounds like Skinner basically played MLB in the base (21/68 snaps) and came off in sub,

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Correct. Played in 34 base only. So that means we had 21 snaps in base. (If I guessed Nink was DE 15 and Jones 6 due to strength of formation)

and that Wilfork, Siliga, Easley and Chris Jones rotated to fill 2 of the lineman positions (124 snaps combined between those 4 players) with Chandler Jones and Ninkovich rotating to fill the other DE spot and the other playing LB. Is that correct?

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Sort of. See above on Nink and Jones.
There were a handful of plays where we went 3 bigs (VW, ChrisJ, Siliga) and a few more than that were we played 3-2 dime. These had Easley on the nose, no other DT and Nink/Jones as the ends.

I would assume that when Jamie Collins is back he will get a lot more snaps than Skinner did. Either we'll play more base, with Collins' coverage ability making up some of the slack, or we'll see some substitution among Collins/Hightower/Nink/Jones, or we'll have to see an adjustment to the above.

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In base he would take Skinner.
In sub, vs Miami they took Nink out and moved Hightower to his DE spot, with Collins playing the spot HT did yesterday.
One has to come out in nickel. Collins is the best cover guy, and it appears, and I agree, that BB likes Hightower as the sub DE over Nink.[/quote][/quote]

AndyJohnson said:

We blitzed A LOT yesterday.
So much that people thought HT was lined up as a pass rusher when he lined up every snap as a LB.

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The OP suggested that turnovers were only the result of mistakes by weak teams. I disagreed.

AndyJohnson said:

We blitzed A LOT yesterday.
So much that people thought HT was lined up as a pass rusher when he lined up every snap as a LB.

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thats the beauty of having a guy like Revis who can lock down his man on "revis island"

RayClay said:

The OP suggested that turnovers were only the result of mistakes by weak teams. I disagreed.

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The interceptions were due to great coverage by our secondary, and Cassel trying to force the ball into good coverage.

RayClay said:

The OP suggested that turnovers were only the result of mistakes by weak teams. I disagreed.

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If that were the case, takeaways would be random.
Of course its not the case, to wit:

Since 2001 arrived, Patriots are #2 in takeaways, 74 better than the Jets (who happend to rank 16th). 74 is in excess of 20% more.
And they rank #1 in fewest turnovers, 83 fewer than the Jets,who happen to rank 16th. That is a difference of close to 30%.


http://www.pro-football-reference.c...=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=takeaways

http://www.pro-football-reference.c...p=gt&c4val=&order_by=turnovers&order_by_asc=Y

RIpats88 said:

thats the beauty of having a guy like Revis who can lock down his man on "revis island"

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McCourty's Int had a lot to do with being able to strand Jennings on Revis Island.

QB12 said:

#4 in both passing YPG and total YPG.

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Yeah. Points per game is currently at 20 which would have been good for about a top 10 at the end of last year. But I believe it will get better. I think that 2nd half of the Miami game was an anomaly.

RIpats88 said:

The interceptions were due to great coverage by our secondary, and Cassel trying to force the ball into good coverage.

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don't forget cassel was under a lot of pressure which causes him to hurry his throws

AndyJohnson said:

See my post above.
In the second half we barely played base, so both Jones and Nink were playing 42 nickel DE.
In the first half when we played base, we shifted to strength making one a 5tech and the other standing up outside as a '34 OLB' but playing much like a 43 DE.
It happened that Nink ended up in 5tech most of the time this week, while Jones did last week, simply because of formation. HT flipped sides to be outside the 5tech on the weak side.
The rest is in the other post.

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Nice observations, thanks for sharing them. I also noticed the shift to strength. Given that you and I feel we played the same exact scheme this week as last, I sent a question to Tedy Bruschi asking if he noticed any differences in scheme. I hope he will answer because to my eyes we did the exact same things, just with better execution.

EDIT: Bruschi didn't answer my question but he did note that he feels the ideal front for this defense will be a 4 man front once Easley progresses a little bit more.

VrabelJr said:

Nice observations, thanks for sharing them. I also noticed the shift to strength. Given that you and I feel we played the same exact scheme this week as last, I sent a question to Tedy Bruschi asking if he noticed any differences in scheme. I hope he will answer because to my eyes we did the exact same things, just with better execution.

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Well there were differences. In the base we aligned exactly the same (with the exception of a handful of snaps with 3 bigs) but Nink was 5tech a lot more this week and Jones last week, not because of scheme but because of strength. We barely played any base in the second half also.
The biggest scheme difference was that we blitzed as much yesterday as I ever remember.
Plus HT played a totally different position in sub (Collins spot instead of Ninks) so Nink was on the field in sub instead of on the sidelines.
Otherwise, its not a feeling, its a fact, we played the same defense.

More importantly people have to realize we are a game plan and opponent driven team. So there are many twists on the base defense that we will employ.
The 34 with 3 bigs was how we opened the game yesterday, and I would bet we would have played a lot of it if Peterson wasn't off dealing with child beating issues.
We played nickel on probably 90% of the second half snaps, because of the lead, and we will do that all game against some teams. The 3-2 dime was something I don't remember seeing last week and it was interesting with Easley on the nose, Nink and Jones at DE and Mayo, HT at LB. Maybe even more interesting with Collins back.
We have the same array of defenses, but each week we will favor some schemes over others.