Amendola

50-yard-line said:

So you're saying the same thing I am, but accusing me of defending him.

If Brady doesn't have confidence in anyone but Gronk and Edelman, then guess what? We're getting blown out in the postseason again.

All I said was that some in the media who are looking at film have commented that DA has been open a lot, while Brady is forcing it elsewhere. If YOU prefer Brady throwing to a doubled Gronk than a wide open DA, then you're an idiot. If no one was saying DA was getting open, I'd agree with you. but no one's saying that.

I have thought for YEARS now - pre-DA - that Brady has developed binkie'itis and it's killing the Pats when they go against good defenses. The old Brady spread it around. The new Brady is cooking comfort food, and that ain't good.

And yes, DA should be cut if he won't renegotiate if things keep going like this. He's not worth the money he's being paid given the way he's being used, IMO. then again, NO ONE today got more than 2 targets other than Edelman and Gronk (7 and 6 respectively).

I wasn't talking to you at all on Manny Sanders. other people are chiming in that he would have changed things. he's a good receiver but not a great receiver.

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This is just totally naive to how a passing offense works.
Your implication is that the QB drops back looks over all the receivers and finds who is open. Wrong.
The QB has a series of progressions. He looks to his first progression, and if he is open, he throws it. If not he goes to the second receiver, then the 3rd, 4th, 5th.

Additionally, the routes are designed in combination so the progressions are set up so that some routes are run just to draw coverage.

Since you do not know the progressions, implying he is forcing the ball because of who he wants to throw to is utterly naive.
Where the ball goes depends on what progressions are in the play McDaniel chooses, then the coverage (because the progressions change based on the coverage) then who Brady considers open.
Unless he just throws to a covered guy for some bizarre reason, where the ball goes depends on who is 1st, 2nd etc in progressions and if they get open.
Most teams will design plays where the route combinations are supposed to get the best receivers in the most favorable coverage, which only makes sense.
So, if you design plays to get your best players open, and they are the top progressions and they get open, then the ball goes to them a lot.

Amendolas problem is he plays the same position as Edelman, slot receiver....so, he isnt going to see many targets over the middle when we have edelman out there.

on the contrast though, You have to put some of the blame on brady for not targeting guys like dobson, amendola, wright, lafell. sometimes he gets too much into his "comfort zone" and decides to force balls to guys he trusts rather than just trusting the open receiver.

In my opinion it is impossible to make an accurate assessment of Amendola's production while with the Patriots because we have a three game sample. Week one 2013 he had 10 receptions, over 100 yards and, with Vereen, essentially carried the passing offense. Then he tore his groin but still came back and played through it. While certainly an impressive display of toughness, a receiver with his traits simply cannot play effectively without one of his abductors firing.

So far this season the entire passing offense in general isn't any good and we won't be able to see the unit executing as a whole until Gronk and Dobson heal up a bit which likely won't be until Halloween. Until then they have to scheme up ways of getting players open (picks, hitches, bubble, traditional, and middle screens) which is largely what we've been seeing. Until they have a viable seam game and are capable of winning outside the hashes and running cover-2 killers any assessment of players and their fit/value to the offense is going to be an incomplete one, and yes that includes Edelman who is obviously a stud.

AndyJohnson said:

This is just totally naive to how a passing offense works.
Your implication is that the QB drops back looks over all the receivers and finds who is open. Wrong.
The QB has a series of progressions. He looks to his first progression, and if he is open, he throws it. If not he goes to the second receiver, then the 3rd, 4th, 5th.

Additionally, the routes are designed in combination so the progressions are set up so that some routes are run just to draw coverage.

Since you do not know the progressions, implying he is forcing the ball because of who he wants to throw to is utterly naive.
Where the ball goes depends on what progressions are in the play McDaniel chooses, then the coverage (because the progressions change based on the coverage) then who Brady considers open.
Unless he just throws to a covered guy for some bizarre reason, where the ball goes depends on who is 1st, 2nd etc in progressions and if they get open.
Most teams will design plays where the route combinations are supposed to get the best receivers in the most favorable coverage, which only makes sense.
So, if you design plays to get your best players open, and they are the top progressions and they get open, then the ball goes to them a lot.

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AJ, I undersand what you are saying based on play design and progression its Gronk - Edelman or vise/versa. But would player's like Amendola - Dobson - Lafell and KT run their routes 100% of the time with discipline knowing that the Ball isn't coming there way? Amendola and Lafell are proven #2 WR's in this league I cannot see them accepting this decoy role in our Offense. If this continues somebody is going to be a squeaky wheel and it would be justified.
.

RIpats88 said:

Amendolas problem is he plays the same position as Edelman, slot receiver....so, he isnt going to see many targets over the middle when we have edelman out there.

on the contrast though, You have to put some of the blame on brady for not targeting guys like dobson, amendola, wright, lafell. sometimes he gets too much into his "comfort zone" and decides to force balls to guys he trusts rather than just trusting the open receiver.

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Edelman does not play "slot receiver". Edelman moves around. More than half of his snaps last year were on the outside:

the 5-foot-10, 198-pound Edelman is more of an inside/outside threat with added value as a top punt returner. In interviews at the Super Bowl, Edelman noted he played 51 percent of his snaps outside in 2013.

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http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4759464/riley-cooper-julian-edelman

Amendola and Edelman could get along fine on the field. It may be that he just doesn't break free quickly enough for Brady's tastes as a safety valve.

supafly said:

--Aaron Dobson catch 1 ball for 13 yds
--Tim Wright targeted once
--Thompkins inactive
--Gronk with a total of 32 yards
--Vereen spent the majority on the sidelines
--LaFell not even targeted

Where does Danny Amendola stick out from this grouping?.

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Pretty easy

Pessimistic Pete said:

Danny Amendola is the #1 highest paid receiver on the 2014 Patriots
Danny Amendola has the 3rd highest cap hit on the 2014 Patriots offense.
Danny Amendola is the 9th highest paid receiver in the AFC for the 2014 season

He is not some project receiver we drafted in the 7th. He a big money free agent acquisition that has proven to be an awful signing in many ways.

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PatsFan2 said:

AJ, I undersand what you are saying based on play design and progression its Gronk - Edelman or vise/versa. But would player's like Amendola - Dobson - Lafell and KT run their routes 100% of the time with discipline knowing that the Ball isn't coming there way? Amendola and Lafell are proven #2 WR's in this league I cannot see them accepting this decoy role in our Offense. If this continues somebody is going to be a squeaky wheel and it would be justified.
.

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Of course they do their job. In what universe does a WR not run his route because of how many times he gets the ball? You are saying that since Gronk gets open a lot, receivers are going to just pout?
Brandon Lloyd got something like 150 passes thrown to him.
Our offense takes advantage of what the defense is doing. We only threw the ball 22 times yesterday.

Edelman got 7, Gronk 6. The other 9 were spread out.
Since we didn't throw often, we exploited the areas of the defense that our 2 top receivers would work best in. Seems simple to me.

Deus Irae said:

Edelman does not play "slot receiver". Edelman moves around. More than half of his snaps last year were on the outside:



http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4759464/riley-cooper-julian-edelman

Amendola and Edelman could get along fine on the field. It may be that he just doesn't break free quickly enough for Brady's tastes as a safety valve.

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I'm hoping this changes as the season goes on and the players grow together, but I think a lot of Amendola's disappearance early is due to Brady's lack of confidence in his OL. All things being equal, he's going to look for Gronk first, Edelman second, and then a rotation of guys depending on the play after that. If he doesn't feel confident he'll get the time to go to his third or fourth read, then he's going to throw to Gronk/Edelman so long as they're even a little bit open.

The only way in that scenario that Amendola would get a target would be on plays designed for him (like the wide open catch he made caused by the illegal pick). It could be 100% what you're saying still, he might just not be getting open enough or quickly enough, but it will be hard to evaluate accurately until the OL gets a good enough string together to make Brady feel comfortable standing back there for several seconds.

AndyJohnson said:

This is just totally naive to how a passing offense works.
Your implication is that the QB drops back looks over all the receivers and finds who is open. Wrong.
The QB has a series of progressions. He looks to his first progression, and if he is open, he throws it. If not he goes to the second receiver, then the 3rd, 4th, 5th.

Additionally, the routes are designed in combination so the progressions are set up so that some routes are run just to draw coverage.

Since you do not know the progressions, implying he is forcing the ball because of who he wants to throw to is utterly naive.
Where the ball goes depends on what progressions are in the play McDaniel chooses, then the coverage (because the progressions change based on the coverage) then who Brady considers open.
Unless he just throws to a covered guy for some bizarre reason, where the ball goes depends on who is 1st, 2nd etc in progressions and if they get open.
Most teams will design plays where the route combinations are supposed to get the best receivers in the most favorable coverage, which only makes sense.
So, if you design plays to get your best players open, and they are the top progressions and they get open, then the ball goes to them a lot.

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Yeah, well, I've heard several people now breaking down week 1 saying that Brady threw to Gronk 4 of the 6 times he was double-covered...with other receivers wide open. Same thing I saw in the AFCCG last year.

Yes, I know how it works, which is why I've said repeatedly that it's either through scheme, locking on, or lack of time.

We won 30-7 and people are focusing on the lack of production of Amendola, what difference does this make in this team sport??... None of us know the game plan and with 13 of the 22 attempts to Edelman and Gronk, there were only 9 left...

Yesterday was a very small sample of how the ball was distributed... Amendola was only on the field for 19 of the 67 snaps...

Do not understand what his negotiated salary has to do with any of this... if he continues to underperform they will tell him to restructure his contract after the season is over, and if he refuses he will be traded to Tampa or another of our farm teams.

Sicilian said:

I'm hoping this changes as the season goes on and the players grow together, but I think a lot of Amendola's disappearance early is due to Brady's lack of confidence in his OL. All things being equal, he's going to look for Gronk first, Edelman second, and then a rotation of guys depending on the play after that. If he doesn't feel confident he'll get the time to go to his third or fourth read, then he's going to throw to Gronk/Edelman so long as they're even a little bit open.

The only way in that scenario that Amendola would get a target would be on plays designed for him (like the wide open catch he made caused by the illegal pick). It could be 100% what you're saying still, he might just not be getting open enough or quickly enough, but it will be hard to evaluate accurately until the OL gets a good enough string together to make Brady feel comfortable standing back there for several seconds.

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Amendola should be getting open fast enough that the OL isn't an issue. Edelman doesn't break loose as fast as Welker, but Brady is able to target him, even as an outside receiver, and find him open. The issue with Amendola may be something as simple as Brady not looking his way, or as problematic as him not getting open, but the OL shouldn't be a significant determinant.

50-yard-line said:

Yeah, well, I've heard several people now breaking down week 1 saying that Brady threw to Gronk 4 of the 6 times he was double-covered...with other receivers wide open. Same thing I saw in the AFCCG last year.

Yes, I know how it works, which is why I've said repeatedly that it's either through scheme, locking on, or lack of time.

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I'm sure Brady will throw to Gronk in double coverage because I'm sure Gronk will beat double coverage.
If he is the read, and he is open, he will get the ball, and others would not, because they wouldn't be open.
I'm not sure who was double covering Gronk in the AFCCG last year, but I think he was a couple thousand miles away.
Interesting thing to gripe about, throwing more often to the best receivers who are open the most.

DarrylS said:

Do not understand what his negotiated salary has to do with any of this... if he continues to underperform they will tell him to restructure his contract after the season is over, and if he refuses he will be traded to Tampa or another of our farm teams.

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Yeah, I'm sure another team would just LOVE to take on his contract.

Deus Irae said:

Amendola should be getting open fast enough that the OL isn't an issue. Edelman doesn't break loose as fast as Welker, but Brady is able to target him, even as an outside receiver, and find him open. The issue with Amendola may be something as simple as Brady not looking his way, or as problematic as him not getting open, but the OL shouldn't be a significant determinant.

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To clarify, I'm saying it's more about how Brady may perceive his offensive line. I think if he feels he has less time on average to get rid of the ball, it expands his tolerance for throwing to those first two options. For example (numbers all hypothetical), with 100% confidence in his OL, he might skip Gronk and Edelman if there's a defender within 1 foot, knowing he has time to see if the other options are open. With 50% confidence in the OL, he might squeeze that ball into the first reads, as the risk of an incompletion there is less than the risk of getting sacked before reaching his 3rd option (in this hypothetical, Amendola) in his progressions.

Now, if Amendola is the first read on a particularly designed play, and Brady still doesn't throw to him, that shows a lack of separation from Danny, but I'm working under the assumption that most of the time Gronk/Edelman are the first reads.

Deus Irae said:

Amendola should be getting open fast enough that the OL isn't an issue. Edelman doesn't break loose as fast as Welker, but Brady is able to target him, even as an outside receiver, and find him open. The issue with Amendola may be something as simple as Brady not looking his way, or as problematic as him not getting open, but the OL shouldn't be a significant determinant.

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Another commentary ignorant to how the passing game works.
What routes is Amendola running that he 'should get open fast enough that the OL doesn't matter"?
Brady doesn't 'not look someones way', we runs through progressions.
Amendolas targets are where they are because of:
1) Play calling with him lower in the progressions
2) Other receivers higher in the progressions getting open
3) Amendola not being open when the progression reaches him
4) The coverage being played by the opponent, which is a big factor in our play calling.

To pretend to know the order or magnitude of these without studying the playcall, progressions, coverage and routes is just making things up.

Sicilian said:

...Now, if Amendola is the first read on a particularly designed play, and Brady still doesn't throw to him, that shows a lack of separation from Danny, but I'm working under the assumption that most of the time Gronk/Edelman are the first reads.

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This would be interesting to find out about, because this team needs to have plays that don't have Edelman/Gronk or Gronk/Edelman as options 1 and 2.

DarrylS said:

We won 30-7 and people are focusing on the lack of production of Amendola, what difference does this make in this team sport??... None of us know the game plan and with 13 of the 22 attempts to Edelman and Gronk, there were only 9 left...

Yesterday was a very small sample of how the ball was distributed... Amendola was only on the field for 19 of the 67 snaps...

Do not understand what his negotiated salary has to do with any of this... if he continues to underperform they will tell him to restructure his contract after the season is over, and if he refuses he will be traded to Tampa or another of our farm teams.

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To whom much is given much is expected. Amendola has 9 catches in his last 6 games, has gone catch less in 2 of his last 3 games. The small sample size is a manipulation of circumstances to attempt to gaze over what has been poor play throughout his tenure with the Patriots with the exception or 2 games against the Bills and Dolphins, and even those 2 games would have been considered another day at the office for Welker the player Amendola was signed to replace. When he receive $5.7M APY to replace Welker and his claim to fame is a 10 catch 104 yard performance against the basement dwelling Buffalo Bills I cannot come up with anything positive to say other than at least he hasn't shot anyone.

DarrylS said:

We won 30-7 and people are focusing on the lack of production of Amendola, what difference does this make in this team sport??... None of us know the game plan and with 13 of the 22 attempts to Edelman and Gronk, there were only 9 left...

Yesterday was a very small sample of how the ball was distributed... Amendola was only on the field for 19 of the 67 snaps...

Do not understand what his negotiated salary has to do with any of this... if he continues to underperform they will tell him to restructure his contract after the season is over, and if he refuses he will be traded to Tampa or another of our farm teams.

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Agree completely. It's Amendola's responsibility to perform well enough to get the snaps and targets and right now he hasn't done enough to do so, that's on him and if he doesn't have a great season they will restructure or release him. However judging him on the first two games makes no sense to me, especially given they way things have gone offensively for this time so far this season. Their OL was beaten up badly against the Dolphins and Belichick clearly prioritized fixing that aspect of their offense over all others this week, and the result was the 6 OL looks we saw and if i am not mistaken far fewer 3 WR looks than they usually run. Edelman has clearly developed into the top WR on this team and as such gets the majority of snaps and targets and that is reflected in his production. Gronk is obviously the other top target for Brady in the passing game and both he and Edelman primarily work on the inside, so the other WR os most likely going to be either Dobson or Thompkins, depending upon who is active. Amendola's snaps and targets are going to depend upon how often they go to their three WR sets and if Belichick decides that they are going to go heavy more often and spread less often then he is going to get fewer snaps, fewer targets, and less production but it will be up to him to make the most of those opportunities when they are there. Amendoal showed a great deal of heart and toughness playing through a really nasty injury last season but it is still on him to live up to the deal they signed him to, and right now that's going to be an uphill climb and a restructure is almost certainly coming at the end of the season, unlike Mankins I don't see him declining it and do see him accepting an incentive laden restructure. Imo Amendola is a good player and he will prove to be a real asset for them over the season and going forward after that, especially if Edelman goes down, and given his size and the beating slot receivers take that is areal possibility.

Sicilian said:

I'm hoping this changes as the season goes on and the players grow together, but I think a lot of Amendola's disappearance early is due to Brady's lack of confidence in his OL. All things being equal, he's going to look for Gronk first, Edelman second, and then a rotation of guys depending on the play after that. If he doesn't feel confident he'll get the time to go to his third or fourth read, then he's going to throw to Gronk/Edelman so long as they're even a little bit open.

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Sounds like a big problem with "confidence in the pocket issues" at the QB spot. I'm not sure that any receivers are going to flourish if the QB is as jittery as you describe.

It's a vicious cycle. The more the QB forces the ball to one or two receivers, the more defenses know they just have to double those two receivers and send the hounds after the QB. After a game with eight sacks and hits, the QB loses more "confidence". One way to break out of that rut would be some quick passes to Amendola and non-blinkie non-double teamed receivers. Another way is to take the ball out of the QBs hand and run the ball, which is what the Pats did yesterday.

Deus Irae said:

This would be interesting to find out about, because this team needs to have plays that don't have Edelman/Gronk or Gronk/Edelman as options 1 and 2.

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Agreed, and to complicate it further, with as much freedom as Tom has with the checks at the line, how often (if ever) does he change a play that is called with someone else as the first read, changing it to Gronk or Edelman. That would be interesting to know as well.