My Blueprint for the Defense

manxman2601 · Sep 10, 2014

stelfans said:
DeCastro and Martin.
Well Yankey got a job with the Vikes, Murphy played for the Redskins week1 but on that trainwreck of a franchise is hard to judge, Mauro apparently had a good training camp and is with the steelers PS.

The best players of that defense were Murphy and Anderson, then Anderson got injured and Mauro emerged.

Forgot about the offensive linemen (Cameron Fleming, Doh!) but in truth, I was really thinking defensively in the main. We shall see how the defensive front 7 players emerge but without commenting to much on Anderson who I've yet to watch too much, I think it's just something worth bearing in mind, namely that they're yet to set the football world alight. And I should note that I'm not trying to be too critical - it happens with most college teams. The Alabama defence is a case in point. Marcel Dareus has done well initially, Mark Barron has been good but probably hasn't lived up to his top 10 draft spot and (I believe) Hightower has done well but aside from them, Alabama defensive players have struggled a bit. I do think this over-coaching thing is an issue. The question is, how does one identify it?

mayoclinic · Sep 11, 2014

mayoclinic said:
This wasn't my "blueprint" at all:

- Play a 3-4 with inadequate ends
- Take Ninkovich out of the game in sub formations
- No effective pass rush
- Not play aggressive press-man coverage
- Abysmal run defense and tackling fundamentals
- General lack of aggressiveness and physicality

That's a recipe that pretty much guarantees failure in today's NFL.

Greg Bedard with a nice read on the Pats' and Packers' defensive woes:

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/09/11/packers-patriots-defense-problems/

A common underlying theme is that both teams have been inconsistent in their drafting and selection of personnel, especially between the DL and the LBs. Chandler Jones is better suited to a 4-3 than a 3-4, as is every defensive lineman that the Pats have looked at this offseason - from Will Smith to Dominique Easley and Zach Moore to Jerel Worthy and Kelcy Quarles. I don't think it's any coincidence that Dont'a Hightower had perhaps his best game in a Pats' uniform on Sunday, and Chandler Jones one of his worst; Hightower is much better suited to a 3-4, Jones to a 4-3. But having mismatched players doesn't work well, and being in no man's land in terms of a defensive approach generally doesn't work well either. It's still a mystery to me why the Pats drafted Jones and Hightower within 4 picks of each other in the 2012 draft, trading up for both. That always seemed completely inconsistent to me.

stelfans · Sep 11, 2014

mayoclinic said:
One of the nice things about the 4-3 une

Greg Bedard with a nice read on the Pats' and Packers' defensive woes:

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/09/11/packers-patriots-defense-problems/

A common underlying theme is that both teams have been inconsistent in their drafting and selection of personnel, especially between the DL and the LBs. Chandler Jones is better suited to a 4-3 than a 3-4, as is every defensive lineman that the Pats have looked at this offseason - from Will Smith to Dominique Easley and Zach Moore to Jerel Worthy and Kelcy Quarles. I don't think it's any coincidence that Dont'a Hightower had perhaps his best game in a Pats' uniform on Sunday, and Chandler Jones one of his worst; Hightower is much better suited to a 3-4, Jones to a 4-3. But having mismatched players doesn't work well, and being in no man's land in terms of a defensive approach generally doesn't work well either. It's still a mystery to me why the Pats drafted Jones and Hightower within 4 picks of each other in the 2012 draft, trading up for both. That always seemed completely inconsistent to me.

This sudden switch is really weird. And when you have into consideration that Jones was playing OLB all pre season it gets weirder. Cant wait to see what they do against Minny.

BTW, I watched the N.Iowa vs Iowa first half and i got say i liked a lot what i saw from Carl Davis. Powerful and ideal size to play 3-4 DE, kid will rise.

mayoclinic · Sep 12, 2014

mayoclinic said:
Greg Bedard with a nice read on the Pats' and Packers' defensive woes:

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/09/11/packers-patriots-defense-problems/

A common underlying theme is that both teams have been inconsistent in their drafting and selection of personnel, especially between the DL and the LBs. Chandler Jones is better suited to a 4-3 than a 3-4, as is every defensive lineman that the Pats have looked at this offseason - from Will Smith to Dominique Easley and Zach Moore to Jerel Worthy and Kelcy Quarles. I don't think it's any coincidence that Dont'a Hightower had perhaps his best game in a Pats' uniform on Sunday, and Chandler Jones one of his worst; Hightower is much better suited to a 3-4, Jones to a 4-3. But having mismatched players doesn't work well, and being in no man's land in terms of a defensive approach generally doesn't work well either. It's still a mystery to me why the Pats drafted Jones and Hightower within 4 picks of each other in the 2012 draft, trading up for both. That always seemed completely inconsistent to me.

I was thinking about this some more, and went back to Jens Bremel's 2010 series for the NY on the evolution of NFL defensive schemes (see post 922 above). I found this:

There’s no simple diagram or playbook quirk that defines Bill Belichick’s defense. Rather, it might be said that it’s the complete lack of one.

Belichick, in a very short span early in his career, was introduced to many different defensive schemes at the pro level. He was exposed to Maxie Baughan, who ran George Allen’s complex 4-3 scheme, whicht was full of pre-snap adjustments. He briefly coached with Fritz Shurmur, who would follow Allen (and others) as coordinators who frequently used nickel schemes as a base defense. He worked with Joe Collier, who turned a troublesome set of injuries to his front seven into Denver’s vaunted Orange Crush – maybe the original multiple-front scheme.

Those exposures came before he gained fame and respect under Bill Parcells and the true 3-4 in New England and New York.

The key to the success of Belichick’s style is flexibility of personnel. To be able to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 to a dime defense and all points in between requires versatility at nearly every position. Players have to be able to run and cover and hit. Linemen have to be strong enough to hold the point in the 3-4, but get upfield in a 4-3. Defensive backs have to be very good in zone coverage but competent in man coverage when needed. It requires special skills, but also an above-average football IQ. Compared with the base Dungy-Kiffin scheme, which probably started with as little as three or four fronts and a couple of zone coverages, Belichick’s hybrid is a maze meant to confuse and confound.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/...t-4-the-3-4-front/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

If BB's intention has always been to run a hybrid multi-front D that can "switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 to a dime defense and all points in between", then all of this makes sense. Jones and Hightower both have the versatility to play a number of roles in that kind of scheme, whereas someone like Lavonte David really doesn't, good as he is. He would be washed out of the play in a 3-4, and we'd all be screaming about how BB wasn't using him effectively.

I've been a big proponent of the hybrid multi-front defense. The results Sunday weren't impressive, but this is a new group of players and it may just take time.

manxman2601 · Sep 14, 2014

Hightower and Chandler Jones at OLB please. Don't care about anything else

Was that four sacks between them today?

manxman2601 · Sep 14, 2014

To be a little more serious and based upon the two games so far this year and assuming the resigning of Revis and McCourty, if we are going to persist with a base 3-4 (and we should), I think there are really on two starting defensive holes and those are a safety alongside McCourty and a 3-4 DE although I'm assuming Wilfork can go through the 2016 season. Aside from that, the only thing we need defensively is depth and not too much of that.

mayoclinic · Sep 14, 2014

manxman2601 said:
To be a little more serious and based upon the two games so far this year and assuming the resigning of Revis and McCourty, if we are going to persist with a base 3-4 (and we should), I think there are really on two starting defensive holes and those are a safety alongside McCourty and a 3-4 DE although I'm assuming Wilfork can go through the 2016 season. Aside from that, the only thing we need defensively is depth and not too much of that.

I am very happy to play a hybrid defense which has a predominant 5-2/3-4 base with Jones and Hightower as the ends/OLBs plus Mayo-Collins as the LBs, and Ninkovich rotating at different positions, and a healthy dose of 4-3 under (with Hightower/Ninkovich as the SAM). This requires 2 big, agile, adept linemen on either side of the NT, who will play some combination of 3-tech, 3-4 DE, and 4-3 under LDE. Easley can probably be pencilled in at one spot, though it will be important to play to his strengths and not play him out of position. The other position is, as you state, indeed very much up in the air, and likely one of the bigger defensive priorities for 2015.

Marqui · Sep 14, 2014

I think I was one of the few who advocated for a base 3-4 defense before the season; the main reason I did was for Hightower. He goes from being a liability playing off the line LB to being a beast at 3-4 OLB. It's like adding an elite player on defense for free.

mayoclinic · Sep 14, 2014

Marqui said:
I think I was one of the few who advocated for a base 3-4 defense before the season; the main reason I did was for Hightower. He goes from being a liability playing off the line LB to being a beast at 3-4 OLB. It's like adding an elite player on defense for free.

I don't really think of what the Pats are running as being a classic 3-4, though I haven't seen the film in detail, but rather part of a hybrid defense. But there's no doubt that Hightower is a better fit in a 3-4 than in a 4-3. He is not an off LB who excels in space, that's for sure. It's nice to see him thrive, though I'm not 100% convinced that it's not at the expense of finding the best fit for others.

manxman2601 · Sep 15, 2014

mayoclinic said:
I don't really think of what the Pats are running as being a classic 3-4, though I haven't seen the film in detail, but rather part of a hybrid defense. But there's no doubt that Hightower is a better fit in a 3-4 than in a 4-3. He is not an off LB who excels in space, that's for sure. It's nice to see him thrive, though I'm not 100% convinced that it's not at the expense of finding the best fit for others.

The number of down linemen seems to change but one or both the OLBs are standing up. I don't remember seeing Chandler Jones with his hand in the dirt very much at all but I do remember them playing a 3-3 front with Nink in a 3 point stance at LE and Chandler Jones standing up at ROLB.

As for your point about "the best fit for others", I suspect you mean Easley not getting to play the 3-tech. I'm fine with that, as you remember in our Donald discussions, I liked the idea of Donald playing RDE with Chandler Jones at ROLB much as the 49ers did with Justin and Aldon Smith. I feel the same way about Easley. Personally I think the starting linebackers are the strength of this defense and getting all four of Jones-Collins-Mayo-Hightower is optimal as Far as I'm concerned (particularly whilst Easley is being brought along slowly). It's also the best way to get Nink and Jones some rest too (Hightower is a better pass rusher right now than Buchanan or Moore).

Luxusdk · Sep 15, 2014

That sayed Manx, Buchanan is also a better 3-4 LB then DE. Moore on the other hand project better as a 34 DE/DT as Tommy Kelly. Same i beleaved was the plan with Bequette when we picked him.

stelfans · Sep 15, 2014

manxman2601 said:
To be a little more serious and based upon the two games so far this year and assuming the resigning of Revis and McCourty, if we are going to persist with a base 3-4 (and we should), I think there are really on two starting defensive holes and those are a safety alongside McCourty and a 3-4 DE although I'm assuming Wilfork can go through the 2016 season. Aside from that, the only thing we need defensively is depth and not too much of that.

"Need a safety?"

stelfans · Sep 15, 2014

btw, whats everyone opinion on Hightower bulking up to 300 lbs and play end?
He definitely looked good at OLB but i too think that Collins is better suited to play there.

Its a big risk but it sure sounds intriguing.

mayoclinic · Sep 15, 2014

mayoclinic said:
I am very happy to play a hybrid defense which has a predominant 5-2/3-4 base with Jones and Hightower as the ends/OLBs plus Mayo-Collins as the LBs, and Ninkovich rotating at different positions, and a healthy dose of 4-3 under (with Hightower/Ninkovich as the SAM). This requires 2 big, agile, adept linemen on either side of the NT, who will play some combination of 3-tech, 3-4 DE, and 4-3 under LDE. Easley can probably be pencilled in at one spot, though it will be important to play to his strengths and not play him out of position. The other position is, as you state, indeed very much up in the air, and likely one of the bigger defensive priorities for 2015.

Thinking about this some more, I had wanted the Pats to go after Lamarr Houston in free agency. He's the kind of player who would fit perfect in the above kind of hybrid scheme:

3 man front: Houston - Wilfork/Siliga - Easley; Jones and Hightower as 3-4 OLBs
4 man front (4-3 Under): Houston - Wilfork/Siliga - Easley - Jones (Leo); Hightower/Ninkovich as SAM
5 man front: Hightower/Ninkovich - Houston - Wilfork/Siliga - Easley - Jones

Leonard Williams would obviously be a great fit for this kind of role, but he'll go 20-30 picks higher than where we will likely pick. Arik Armstead might be a good fit - this was the role that I had always pegged his brother Armond for. I don't know if Carl Davis has the athleticism, but he's obviously someone who will deserve consideration. Rice DT Christian Covington might also be someone to watch.

mayoclinic · Sep 15, 2014

stelfans said:
btw, whats everyone opinion on Hightower bulking up to 300 lbs and play end?
He definitely looked good at OLB but i too think that Collins is better suited to play there.

Its a big risk but it sure sounds intriguing.

It is a big risk, but not out of the question. FWIW, Rob Ninkovich seemed to be playing most of the game yesterday as a 5-tech LDE. Ninkovich's versatility is just astounding.

captain stone · Sep 15, 2014

We don't have any 6'-4"+, 290#+ DLmen on this team to effectively run a 3-4 defense. Bill had one,
but he released him before even the final cut-down. 4-3 is the way to go, including Hightower as a
DE in a rotation with Chandler J & Ninko.

Sciz · Sep 15, 2014

stelfans said:
btw, whats everyone opinion on Hightower bulking up to 300 lbs and play end?
He definitely looked good at OLB but i too think that Collins is better suited to play there.

Its a big risk but it sure sounds intriguing.

I don't know why so many people want to so drastically change everything about Hightower. The guy hasn't had a bad game since the entire defensive debacle against the Texans last year. He's probably the only guy who can say he's played all 8 of those games without sucking it up in at least one of them. Let him keep doing what he's doing. It's working.

pencilneckgeek · Sep 15, 2014

stelfans said:
btw, whats everyone opinion on Hightower bulking up to 300 lbs and play end?
He definitely looked good at OLB but i too think that Collins is better suited to play there.

Its a big risk but it sure sounds intriguing.

I think Hightower is about as big as he gets already. His combination of size and explosiveness is going to be special this year.

mayoclinic · Sep 15, 2014

mayoclinic said:
What about someone who could play LDE in a 4-3 under but also has more explosiveness, such as Shawn Oakman? Do you think he's more of a pure 4-3 over player, or could he play both roles?

stelfans said:
IMO you want a real 3-4 in that spot, that Anderson report is pretty much the perfect player for that IMO.
Oakman is like Jones to me, and i wouldnt play him there.

captain stone said:
We don't have any 6'-4"+, 290#+ DLmen on this team to effectively run a 3-4 defense. Bill had one,
but he released him before even the final cut-down. 4-3 is the way to go, including Hightower as a
DE in a rotation with Chandler J & Ninko.

Andy Johnson's film analysis of Sunday's game against Minnesota suggested a creative and innovative twist of a "multiple" defense, in which the Pats used Dont'a Hightower at one OLB spot and EITHER Rob Ninkovich or Chandler Jones at the other, with whichever guy wasn't at OLB playing a 5-tech position:

AndyJohnson said:
2) The scheme of having Nink OR Jones at 34 DE with the other and HT as OLBs allows us to be a little more unpredictable in which 4 will rush, especially since HT is showing to be a very effective pass rusher.

This is really kind of cool. I don't know if it's a "gimmick", or a personnel adaption in the absence of a classic 6'4" 290# guy who can play 5-tech, but it does make me wonder whether a guy like Oakman or Fowler could play that kind of role.

Imagine a scheme where you had Wilfork/Siliga at the NT and Easley at one "5 tech" (becoming a 3-tech if Chandler Jones moves up and plays with his hand down), Mayo and Collins and LB, Hightoer as a DE/OLB, and Chandler Jones and 6'8" 285# Shawn Oakman flipping between OLB and the other 5-Tech position. Baylor has used Oakman standing up this season, FWIW. One could create tremendous havoc with that kind of a personnel set.

Marqui · Sep 15, 2014

mayoclinic said:
It is a big risk, but not out of the question.

Yes it is out of the question. There is 0 chance they'll make Hightower add 30 lbs and play DL.

My Blueprint for the Defense

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

PatsFans.com Supporter

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

PatsFans.com Supporter

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

PatsFans.com Supporter

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

PatsFans.com Supporter

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

Similar threads