Why Are We Surprised About The Offensive Line?

BradyManny said:

It is surprising that Solder & Vollmer underperformed, and that has nothing to do with the Mankins trade.

I was for the Mankins trade at the time because I thought one of the two guys I didn't want on the field (Devey or Wendell) was bound for starting anyway. Had I known Cannon was going to be moved to guard, then a Solder-Mankins-Connolly-Cannon-Vollmer group was what I would've rooted for.

Oh well. I understand why they made the move anyway.

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Solder's dip in play had at least a little bit to do with the Mankins trade. People don't realize how much he covered up not only for Wendell, but for Solder as well. Did you get a chance to watch any of the Tampa Bay/Carolina game? I did. It was aired down here. Mankins was playing exceptionally well in both the run and the pass game before he left the contest. Meanwhile, Cannon (who I wanted moved to guard), Connolly, and Devey looked like one big pile of crap.

JackBauer said:

You should try being a Browns fan for a day.

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Just as long as I don't have to be a Jets fan for any length of time...

Saint Pat said:

Exactly! The expectations for the pats compared to those for a terrible team are much higher. The pats are a perennial Super Bowl contender whereas teams like the Browns would be happy if they could make the playoffs every other year.

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Yes, but there is a difference between goals/hopes and realistic expectations.

For some fans the goal of winning a Super Bowl every year has morphed into an unrealistic expectation that the team should not only win the championship each and every year, but that they should also never lose a single game. When that inevitably does not happen it's followed by over-the-top outrage, finger pointing and demands that multiple heads should roll.

jmt57 said:

Just as long as I don't have to be a Jets fan for any length of time...

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I wouldn't wish that on my worst of enemies

Its the fact that with all the draft picks and available free agents, its same thing every year, how far can Tom Brady carry them without a #1 WR, an online, and no pressure on the opposing QB. And knowing if they found just a couple impact players they should win the championship.

KontradictioN said:

Solder's dip in play had at least a little bit to do with the Mankins trade. People don't realize how much he covered up not only for Wendell, but for Solder as well. Did you get a chance to watch any of the Tampa Bay/Carolina game? I did. It was aired down here. Mankins was playing exceptionally well in both the run and the pass game before he left the contest. Meanwhile, Cannon (who I wanted moved to guard), Connolly, and Devey looked like one big pile of crap.

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Fair point. That's a depressing report that Mankins was playing well when our interior guys were getting crushed.

At least Cannon & Connolly have hope, and it wasn't all bad from them - Devey I do not get what the team sees in him.

I did notice Mankind having to compensate for interior online and Solder as well. Solder is very disappointing and hasn't taken step up to being one of better LTs. A round1 pick was used on Solder in a loaded draft. If somebody said we would not come sway with a single impact elite player in 2011 when we had all those picks in that loaded draft with all our picks I would have called that person a nutjob. Solder is maybe an above average tackle. Should have traded up for Julio Jones, tyron smith, JJ watt or Quinn.

PatFanCraig said:

I did notice Mankind having to compensate for interior online and Solder as well. Solder is very disappointing and hasn't taken step up to being one of better LTs. A round1 pick was used on Solder in a loaded draft. If somebody said we would not come sway with a single impact elite player in 2011 when we had all those picks in that loaded draft with all our picks I would have called that person a nutjob. Solder is maybe an above average tackle. Should have traded up for Julio Jones, tyron smith, JJ watt or Quinn.

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A trade up for JJ Watt would have been a great move, especially if we drafted my man Jared Veldheer the year before.

You people are incredible. Mankins played one quarter....one quarter.

He was probably ultra motivated to prove that the Patriots made a "mistake". If you believe that he would have saved the day last week, you are dead wrong.

Mankins (for one year) is not worth $6 million in cap space this year, 2-3 years of Wright, and probably a high end 4th Round draft pick.

RI Patriots fan said:

You people are incredible. Mankins played one quarter....one quarter.

He was probably ultra motivated to prove that the Patriots made a "mistake". If you believe that he would have saved the day last week, you are dead wrong.

Mankins (for one year) is not worth $6 million in cap space this year, 2-3 years of Wright, and probably a high end 4th Round draft pick.

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How much is protecting Brady worth?

RI Patriots fan said:

You people are incredible. Mankins played one quarter....one quarter.

He was probably ultra motivated to prove that the Patriots made a "mistake". If you believe that he would have saved the day last week, you are dead wrong.

Mankins (for one year) is not worth $6 million in cap space this year, 2-3 years of Wright, and probably a high end 4th Round draft pick.

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Did something happen with the Pats cap room that I'm not aware of? Otherwise, we could have afforded Mankins without a problem and just jettisoned him next year if the team had a replacement option in place that is at least solid. Instead, the team cut their nose off to spite their face and our 37 year old immobile elite pocket passer just took a beating while the offense mustered zero points in their first losing effort in Week 1 since 2003.

RI Patriots fan said:

You people are incredible. Mankins played one quarter....one quarter.

He was probably ultra motivated to prove that the Patriots made a "mistake". If you believe that he would have saved the day last week, you are

Mankins (for one year) is not worth $6 million in cap space this year, 2-3 years of Wright, and probably a high end 4th Round draft pick.

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Dude you dont get what were saying. They should have had a talented replacement for mankins in place couple years ago so that they could unload his salary. The problem is they have no replacement other than undrafted free agents they signed off the street no other team wanted

Snake Eyes said:

How much is protecting Brady worth?

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And what proof do you have that would suggest he would protect Brady this year......Mankins' performance last year (especially the end of the year)? His one quarter of performance this year?

Was the line great with him last year?

KontradictioN said:

Did something happen with the Pats cap room that I'm not aware of? Otherwise, we could have afforded Mankins without a problem and just jettisoned him next year if the team had a replacement option in place that is at least solid. Instead, the team cut their nose off to spite their face and our 37 year old immobile elite pocket passer just took a beating while the offense mustered zero points in their first losing effort in Week 1 since 2003.

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Do you think the team doesn't have any clue as to what it's cap needs are going forward? Do you think that resigning Revis, McCourty, Vereen, Gostkowski, Slater, and maybe even Ridley and Cannon might be part of the equation as well? How about free agent acquisitions?

Again, what proof do you have that suggests that Mankins would have somehow made a difference this year when both he and the rest of the offensive line struggled last year?

PatFanCraig said:

Dude you dont get what were saying. They should have had a talented replacement for mankins in place couple years ago so that they could unload his salary. The problem is they have no replacement other than undrafted free agents they signed off the street no other team wanted

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Of course they should have....and every draft pick should be perfect because it's an exact science.

jmt57 said:

In a league that arguably has more built-in parity than any other sport, taking the field versus one team is a bit of a lopsided bet.


Why the implicit assumption that a team should automatically win championships?

NFL football is the ultimate team sport. While a quarterback is more important than any other position player in the game, he doesn't have the impact that, for example, a single player in (five-on-five) basketball does. Then you have the double-edged sword of free agency and a genuine salary cap, working in tandem with the very many injuries that occur every year, nuances of fluky bounces, questionable judgement calls by officials, and relatively short 16-game season in a single-game elimination playoff system.

The assertion that Belichick is underachieving and that the Patriots should automatically win championships year after year after year is very short-sighted, in my opinion.

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I did not make the assertion that the Patriots should automatically win super bowls year after year, and if you took that from what I said, I apologize because that certainly was not my intent. I think you are reading into what I said a bit. The implication of what I said is that winning a super bowl is hard and if Belichick has not been able to do it with Tom Brady arguably the best QB ever the likelihood that he will do it without him is very small, in my opinion anyway.

Do I feel the Patriots have underachieved, no, but do I think that the window for success has been open for a while and we have failed to climb completely through it? Yes, over the past 10 years, the other top QBs in the NFL have won championships; Rodgers, Manning, Brees, and Roethlisberger have all won at least 1 since Brady last won. Why is that, well frankly it is the supporting cast, the team is not built properly, it is always lacking something, in 2007 it was the running backs, 2011 it was the secondary, 2012 it was the front 7, last season it was the wide receivers, and now this year it appears to be the offensive line. I am usually pro Belichick, and I am still a huge fan and supporter of his, but I have to be honest, I am slightly turned off this year by him using the #62 pick to draft a QB when he did not even have the players to protect his current QB.

RI Patriots fan said:

And what proof do you have that would suggest he would protect Brady this year......Mankins' performance last year (especially the end of the year)? His one quarter of performance this year?

Was the line great with him last year?

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Mankins was very good in his quarter and Devey was crap in his four.

Do I need more than that?

So, the answer to an 2012 offensive line that struggled is to weaken it by trading away Mankins? Somehow, I don't follow.

BTW, I would note that we had a top 5 offense last year. The problem was more due to having new wide receivers, rather than a weak OL.

RI Patriots fan said:

Again, what proof do you have that suggests that Mankins would have somehow made a difference this year when both he and the rest of the offensive line struggled last year?

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KontradictioN said:

Did something happen with the Pats cap room that I'm not aware of? Otherwise, we could have afforded Mankins without a problem and just jettisoned him next year if the team had a replacement option in place that is at least solid. Instead, the team cut their nose off to spite their face and our 37 year old immobile elite pocket passer just took a beating while the offense mustered zero points in their first losing effort in Week 1 since 2003.

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I think "afford" is a less useful word in the context of evaluating salary cap decisions since the league began allowing unspent cap dollars to carry-over to the next year. Previously, it was strictly a question of whether you could afford a player or needed the money to make a deal in the same year, but now, it's a much broader question of value and thus in evaluating the Mankins trade, we need to consider who the Pats can get for the $6M saved this year plus the $6.5M saved next year. It's an inexact science, as Revis may play hardball or the money may not bring in the impact player that accompanies Tim Wright and the 4th rounder, but from here, it looks to me like it was a good value decision. If Brady gets injured or the money gets invested in a player who doesn't make the grade, that evaluation would obviously change, but that's an exercise in actuarial mathematics beyond my pay grade as a volunteer fan.

The whole place was all "16-0" after a 3rd preseason game against Carolina.

Now we're all "OMG season is over after the Miami game."

I'm submitting a few general thoughts here:
- Pull Mankins, reap the whirlwind, for a certain amount of time at least. Okay. The season is more than 1 game.
- Scar's gone. This is new territory. He had the perfect name. Cut us, do we not Scar? But we'll have to see what happens to the OLine's collective ability to heal/gel without the Scar difference.
- Can't break down Brady into a has-been w/this amount of data. But w/overwhelming amount of opinion I'm seeing here, we'll keep an eye on it. But all you chicken littles re: Brady... think about him in kelly green. Just got a lot scarier, right?
- The big unknown as of last year was the Dobsons and Thompkins wild card. Again, we all have a whole game to go by. I generally don't trust these guys until they show something special. Not competent, special. But there's upside there held in abeyance until the national media allow us to notice it.
- Defense spent a game sucking. On paper, defense should not suck. Let's see.
- TFB spent a half a game sucking. On paper, I've seen breakdowns that say, yeah, he does actually suck now. I've seen counters as well as to why his stats aren't breaking any fantasy records. Once again, let's hope we see catches outside the numbers and a few downfield. Let's hope we see the traditional bounceback game, where the team after the team that beats us wishes they played us any other time. Would like a good beatdown like that (going the other way) to get the balance back into the threads.
- BUT - my spoiled brethren and sistren - we will not see the 2007 squad marauding through the league again. There's not a "Pats Supremacy" that other people have to disprove. We're the past. Until we decide we're not
- And no, that doesn't mean Jimmy Grapefruit, at least not after one down half.

Are we good enough to take out Minnesota without AD? If not, er, time to be truly worried.

It's SUNDAY people. Mope on Monday, if need be. Time to get your homer on - worried as you may be. Try to remember that 2 weeks ago people were wondering why nobody pencilled us in for the Super Bowl.

Jesus. Week 2. I can't take 15 more of these.

Snake Eyes said:

Mankins was very good in his quarter and Devey was crap in his four.

Do I need more than that?

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Oh, so we're going by quarters now? How did the offensive line do in the 1st half of the Miami game? Zero sacks....well, I guessed they played awesome then.

BTW, did the offensive line miss Mankins today against Minnesota? I ask because on the Vikings Forum they were complaining that their defensive line couldn't get any pressure on Brady.