Excellent Analysis of Patriots D by Bedard

Ring 6 · Sep 12, 2014

Mack Herron said:
While not taking anything away from the Dolphins, this is an oversimplification that lays it all on the players not being good enough. Do you really believe that?

In that game, there is no question the players were not good enough.
How do you expect the coach to make them not get blocked by their man?

VrabelJr · Sep 12, 2014

Deus Irae said:
It means that, because of the needed personnel for a Bill Belichick 3-4, the basic 3-4/4-3 difference is significant. Belichick's not using 230lb linebackers.

Name me some 4-3 teams that have all 230 pound linebackers. It's typically just the Will that is 230-240 pounds.

You're showing your ignorance about defensive schemes if you think "heavy LBs = 3-4." Look how small the Ravens have gone at ILB and they are still a 3-4. Willis and Bowman are both 240. The Mike and Will are the same exact positions in the 3-4 and 4-3.

varjao · Sep 12, 2014

Watching the Ravens defense playing yesterday, so physical, always close to the ball, there's only 3 players remaining from their SB run 2 years ago, they totally rebuilt the defense in 2 years and it looks like a top one. Their DL is awesome, Elvis Dummervil creating havoc yesterday.

We are so far away from that.

PittPatriot · Sep 12, 2014

Unfortunately, the days of Bruschi, Vrabel, and McGinnist voicing their displeasure of certain schemes or gameplans in the meeting rooms are gone. Do you think Mayo or Ninko carry that kind of clout with the current coaching staff that they can say, "Hey, this isn't working - we might do better with..."?

Ring 6 · Sep 12, 2014

VrabelJr said:
Name me some 4-3 teams that have all 230 pound linebackers. It's typically just the Will that is 230-240 pounds.

You're showing your ignorance about defensive schemes if you think "heavy LBs = 3-4." Look how small the Ravens have gone at ILB and they are still a 3-4. Willis and Bowman are both 240. The Mike and Will are the same exact positions in the 3-4 and 4-3.

Some people think that everything you call a 43 and everything you call a 34 are the same thing, and that they are widely different.
Ignorance is the villain in this discussion.

Ring 6 · Sep 12, 2014

varjao said:
Watching the Ravens defense playing yesterday, so physical, always close to the ball, there's only 3 players remaining from their SB run 2 years ago, they totally rebuilt the defense in 2 years and it looks like a top one. Their DL is awesome, Elvis Dummervil creating havoc yesterday.

We are so far away from that.

You mean the defense that got torched by the Bengals last week?

Deus Irae · Sep 12, 2014

VrabelJr said:
Name me some 4-3 teams that have all 230 pound linebackers. It's typically just the Will that is 230-240 pounds.

You're showing your ignorance about defensive schemes if you think "heavy LBs = 3-4." Look how small the Ravens have gone at ILB and they are still a 3-4. Willis and Bowman are both 240. The Mike and Will are the same exact positions in the 3-4 and 4-3.

First show me where I said all 3-4 teams use nothing but huge lbs.

Second, show me where I said 4-3 defenses use nothing but 230 pound lbs.

Third, when you figure out that I said neither, realize that the ignorance on display is yours.

pencilneckgeek · Sep 12, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
Its not a matter of guys not knowing where they are supposed to be. They got blocked. They lost their one on one battles, particularly when they were worn down in the second half. You don't scheme out of that.

Mack Herron said:
While not taking anything away from the Dolphins, this is an oversimplification that lays it all on the players not being good enough. Do you really believe that?

There is a difference between knowing your assignment and being good at executing a technique in the run of play. Run fits can be particularly challenging in a zone blocking scheme, as the defense doesn't always know where their blocker is coming from. The players were not good enough at recognition of the blocking patterns and execution of their techniques to defend it and thus were often out-of-position. They don't have to be way out-of-position, just far enough to make fighting-off blocks difficult, which in turn can lead to being way out-of-position, or it can lead to fighting-off blocks late and diving to make the tackle as the RB goes past. Practice improves recognition and execution, so the players who were not good enough last week may be this week or, at least, may not be beat quite so often.

Midship · Sep 12, 2014

varjao said:
Watching the Ravens defense playing yesterday, so physical, always close to the ball, there's only 3 players remaining from their SB run 2 years ago, they totally rebuilt the defense in 2 years and it looks like a top one. Their DL is awesome, Elvis Dummervil creating havoc yesterday.

We are so far away from that.

I agree, unfortunately. Baltimore's front 7 looks like it would run train on our oline right now. Had bad flashbacks to two years ago - losing to Flacco

VrabelJr · Sep 12, 2014

Deus Irae said:
First show me where I said all 3-4 teams use nothing but huge lbs.

Second, show me where I said 4-3 defenses use nothing but 230 pound lbs.

Third, when you figure out that I said neither, realize that the ignorance on display is yours.

Typical pedantic reply from you.

I would normally entertain you, but I'm getting tired of threads turning into Deus Irae versus The World on the basis of sentence structure rather than what the thread was intended to be about. I'm pretty sure everyone else on this forum is sick of it as well.

varjao · Sep 12, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
You mean the defense that got torched by the Bengals last week?

Where 23 points is getting torched? The problem in that game, looking only to the numbers, was the offensive side of the ball for the Ravens since they got shut out in the first half. That can only mean the offense was not working at all, like the Patriots against Miami.

Losing a game for the good regular season team Bengals doesn't mean their defense is crap. They limited the Steelers to only 6 yesterday.

Ring 6 · Sep 12, 2014

varjao said:
Where 23 points is getting torched? The problem in that game, looking only to the numbers, was the offensive side of the ball for the Ravens since they got shut out in the first half. That can only mean the offense was not working at all, like the Patriots against Miami.

Losing a game for the good regular season team Bengals doesn't mean their defense is crap. They limited the Steelers to only 6 yesterday.

They allowed over 400 yards to the Bengals.
Its just ironic that you look at one game and say we are nowhere near them when they played pretty much equally to how we did in week 1.

varjao · Sep 12, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
They allowed over 400 yards to the Bengals.
Its just ironic that you look at one game and say we are nowhere near them when they played pretty much equally to how we did in week 1.

One or two games is a very small sample size and I didn't watch the game against the bengals so I can't say much about that game but yesterday they did show that they can pressure the QB and the Steelers actually have a good O-line, in our case we are not able to generate pressure on the QB for years, it's not a new problem. That's why I'm envy.

mayoclinic · Sep 12, 2014

varjao said:
One or two games is a very small sample size and I didn't watch the game against the bengals so I can't say much about that game but yesterday they did show that they can pressure the QB and the Steelers actually have a good O-line, in our case we are not able to generate pressure on the QB for years, it's not a new problem. That's why I'm envy.

There's an irony here, but I'm missing it.

Saint Pat · Sep 12, 2014

mayoclinic said:
There's an irony here, but I'm missing it.

So big win for the pats against the vikes and the defense shuts down Adrian Peterson on Sunday?

shmessy · Sep 12, 2014

goheels22002 said:
The Patriots defense looked fine in the 1st half. Then they came out and played slow, reactive and sloppy in the second half. It seemed like they became complacent while the Miami Dolphins adjusted and started sending running backs and receivers at what they thought correctly were mismatches up front and on the the second level. The Patriots did not respond by changing up things or ratcheting up the intensity at the point of attack. I blame the coaching staff for that.

Vince Wilfork looked pretty good in the early going, but got pushed off the point of attack in the 2nd half. That's an issue that he needs to address, or the coaching staff needs to sort out by using more big 4-3 with Wilfork and Siliga side-by-side in the middle.

Bedard's comment about Collins was interesting to me. He's got the height and speed to do great things in the passing game, but on running plays he's just not the kind of presence you need to stay out of the wash when trying to fill gaps full of OL and blocking backs that a guy like Hightower can sort through to get to the ball carrier. I'd like to see Ninkovich over there when teams start to run at Collins.

Easley and Jones on the ends with Siliga and Wilfork inside would be an athletic and tough front four when teams start loading up to run. A trio of Ninkovich, Mayo and Hightower on the next level give the Pats all sorts of blitz options.

It will be interesting to see how they stack the box with AP on tap this weekend.

.
Pats D in 1st half - 12 minutes
Pats D in 2nd half - 19 minutes.

The difference was the Pats offense putting them on the field much more in 89 degree 61% Miami Weather.

THAT is what results in arm tackling and fatigue.

.

PatFanCraig · Sep 12, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
They allowed over 400 yards to the Bengals.
Its just ironic that you look at one game and say we are nowhere near them when they played pretty much equally to how we did in week 1.

Since I live in Baltimore most of the time, in some ways I envy them to. Aside from them drafting players I wanted Bill to draft, they have built a dominant OLine and actual starters on defense including cornerbacks,an up and coming safety and 3 down LBs that can stop the run cover very well and blitz. AND they generate a pass rush while their DLine isnt blown off the ball. And they actually stick to a plan. And they aren't fascinated with certain colleges. Part of bills Drafting issues is being more concerned who coached a player in college more than the players actual talent and skillset to make an impact and compete in the NFL all the tasks the position in the NFL demands. Example other than the Rutgers players Bill drafted Hightower who was similar to Spikes and was terrible in coverage. Would Bill have drafted Hightower if he played for Miami as opposed to playing in SABAN'S system and being partially coached up for his system.

JMC00 · Sep 12, 2014

PatFanCraig said:
Since I live in Baltimore most of the time, in some ways I envy them to. Aside from them drafting players I wanted Bill to draft, they have built a dominant OLine and actual starters on defense including cornerbacks,an up and coming safety and 3 down LBs that can stop the run cover very well and blitz. AND they generate a pass rush while their DLine isnt blown off the ball. And they actually stick to a plan. And they aren't fascinated with certain colleges. Part of bills Drafting issues is being more concerned who coached a player in college more than the players actual talent and skillset to make an impact and compete in the NFL all the tasks the position in the NFL demands. Example other than the Rutgers players Bill drafted Hightower who was similar to Spikes and was terrible in coverage. Would Bill have drafted Hightower if he played for Miami as opposed to playing in SABAN'S system and being partially coached up for his system.

So go be a ravens fan

Rob0729 · Sep 12, 2014

PatFanCraig said:
Since I live in Baltimore most of the time, in some ways I envy them to. Aside from them drafting players I wanted Bill to draft, they have built a dominant OLine and actual starters on defense including cornerbacks,an up and coming safety and 3 down LBs that can stop the run cover very well and blitz. AND they generate a pass rush while their DLine isnt blown off the ball. And they actually stick to a plan. And they aren't fascinated with certain colleges. Part of bills Drafting issues is being more concerned who coached a player in college more than the players actual talent and skillset to make an impact and compete in the NFL all the tasks the position in the NFL demands. Example other than the Rutgers players Bill drafted Hightower who was similar to Spikes and was terrible in coverage. Would Bill have drafted Hightower if he played for Miami as opposed to playing in SABAN'S system and being partially coached up for his system.

I don't know why you would be jealous of the Ravens. I have a ton of respect for Ozzie Newsome, but I don't know if I would like being a fan of a team that seems to go from Super Bowl contender to average as much as the Ravens do.

Yeah, they have one more ring than the Pats do over the last 10 years, but it is funny that they won the Super Bowl in a year no one thought they would going into the playoffs.

BradyFTW! · Sep 12, 2014

PatFanCraig said:
Since I live in Baltimore most of the time, in some ways I envy them to. Aside from them drafting players I wanted Bill to draft, they have built a dominant OLine and actual starters on defense including cornerbacks,an up and coming safety and 3 down LBs that can stop the run cover very well and blitz. AND they generate a pass rush while their DLine isnt blown off the ball. And they actually stick to a plan. And they aren't fascinated with certain colleges. Part of bills Drafting issues is being more concerned who coached a player in college more than the players actual talent and skillset to make an impact and compete in the NFL all the tasks the position in the NFL demands. Example other than the Rutgers players Bill drafted Hightower who was similar to Spikes and was terrible in coverage. Would Bill have drafted Hightower if he played for Miami as opposed to playing in SABAN'S system and being partially coached up for his system.

I'm not jealous of the Ravens, but I do think they give us a bit of cause for optimism, if only because they show how quickly an OL can be turned around once it's acknowledged as a problem. What did it take them to go from horrible last year to looking pretty damn good so far? They traded for Eugene Monroe and signed Jeremy Zuttah. That just about covered it.

Bottom line: the Pats need their own Zuttah. Maybe Stork's the guy, or maybe a FA will have to be. But this OL is about 1-2 players away from potentially being really good again. I have more faith in the team's ability to fix it once they decide to than I have in its ability to recognize the problem in the first place.

To a lot of us, it's been clear that the interior of the line needs a talent infusion ever since Ryan Wendell stepped foot on the field. And while I couldn't really blame them in 2012, since they expected Waters back and seemed to have been kinda blindsided by that, they've now had two full offseasons where they've chosen to run the same old guys back out there.

Eventually, Belichick will realize that he's trying to get water out of a stone with some of these guys, and when he does I expect to see a pretty quick turnaround. At this point, I would be both not shocked and very happy if we made an in-season trade for an impact guard, kinda like what Belichick did with Talib a couple of years ago.

Excellent Analysis of Patriots D by Bedard

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