The misuse of Chandler Jones week one at Miami

Ring 6 · Sep 9, 2014

TBR said:
I don't understand the logic behind that decision at all.

Could someone name 1 good reason why Belichick thought it might have been a good idea?

Is jones at 43 de a good idea? Because he played the sane technique as a 34 de that he does as a 43 de.

Ring 6 · Sep 9, 2014

mgteich said:
Was it a real 34 or one with Ninkovich simply having a hand up.

For me, the team is no suited for a true 3-4 2-gap. If they ran such a formation, then of course Jones should be an OLB.

It was a different version of 34 than we have ever seen before. Jones played the de spot the same way he does in the 43. Hightower rushed more than nink.

Ring 6 · Sep 9, 2014

iapatsfan said:
I don't know enough about the Dolphins O-line, but the only thing I can come up with is there may have been a matchup with an interior player he felt was advantageous for Jones. It didn't work.

He never lined up against an interior player. He line up over the lt all day just like he always does.

Kontradiction · Sep 9, 2014

VrabelJr said:
They weren't 2 gapping yesterday (only Wilfork was) so Chandler Jones' position was effectively unchanged. The only person affected by the use of the 3-4 was Ninkovich.

If you're going to dislike the use of the 3-4 at least dislike it for the right reasons. Bandwagon bashing is getting old. I agree we should be in more of a 4-3 look, by the way. It' suits our DL and depth at DT.

Wilfork wasn't the only one two gapping. Easley was too. Not sure about Jones, but he's not heavy enough to play DE in the 3-4 regardless of whether or not he was two gapping. The entire defensive coaching staff must have smoked crack when they came up with this game plan because I honestly cannot think of a worse way to utilize the strengths of your personnel while hiding their weaknesses like the **** they trotted out in this game. And, keep in mind, I've traditionally defended the coordinators on both sides of the ball after a loss.

PatsFan2 · Sep 9, 2014

Oh come on! practice makes perfect lets see how that 3-4 scheme work against one the best rushing attack Sunday.

PatsFan2 · Sep 9, 2014

The Scheme was so bad that it made Revis look like a average CB it didn't look like we had a Shut Down CB out there. If the Dolphin QB hit on few more throws the game could have been a ugly Blowout! Outcoached and out everything that was flat out embarasing!

makoute · Sep 9, 2014

KontradictioN said:
Wilfork wasn't the only one two gapping. Easley was too. Not sure about Jones, but he's not heavy enough to play DE in the 3-4 regardless of whether or not he was two gapping. The entire defensive coaching staff must have smoked crack when they came up with this game plan because I honestly cannot think of a worse way to utilize the strengths of your personnel while hiding their weaknesses like the **** they trotted out in this game. And, keep in mind, I've traditionally defended the coordinators on both sides of the ball after a loss.

I can't possibly read all the threads since Sunday, so this probably has already been stated, the players played like crap, but they were not place in the best position to win by the coaches.

VrabelJr · Sep 9, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
It was a different version of 34 than we have ever seen before. Jones played the de spot the same way he does in the 43. Hightower rushed more than nink.

What's so funny about all these people upset about the 3-4 we played on Sunday is that these are the same people 4-5+ years ago that kept saying "We need to play a 1-gapping 3-4, not BB's stupid old fart 2-gapping 3-4!" Now we're playing a 3-4 where the RDE is 1-gapping and the LDE is usually 1-gapping and people are all up in arms.

I said it before and I'll say it again, we didn't get ran all over because we played a 3-4. We got ran all over because our LDE sucked and LBs did a terrible job at shedding blocks and hitting gaps. Mayo had one of the worst games of his career.

VrabelJr · Sep 9, 2014

KontradictioN said:
Wilfork wasn't the only one two gapping. Easley was too. Not sure about Jones, but he's not heavy enough to play DE in the 3-4 regardless of whether or not he was two gapping. The entire defensive coaching staff must have smoked crack when they came up with this game plan because I honestly cannot think of a worse way to utilize the strengths of your personnel while hiding their weaknesses like the **** they trotted out in this game. And, keep in mind, I've traditionally defended the coordinators on both sides of the ball after a loss.

Chandler Jones was *literally* playing the same exact position in the 3-4 that he plays in the 4-3. He doesn't need to be heavier to play the same exact position.

Kontradiction · Sep 9, 2014

According to Pats Pulpit's film review, the Patriots did, indeed, have Chandler Jones two gapping...

http://www.patspulpit.com/2014/9/7/6119163/quick-take-miami-makes-the-patriots-cry

Now, for the defensive line. Oy. As Rich already said, much of the problem here comes down to scheming. The Patriots do not have the personnel to play a two-gapping 3-4 scheme. Chandler Jones should not be a two-gapping 3-4 end. Joe Vellano should not be on the Patriots in the first place. Vince Wilfork and Sealver Siliga have the capacity to play in the 3-4, but neither played well against the Dolphins. Siliga looked slowed by the club around his hand, preventing him from grabbing onto his man, and Wilfork missed at least three tackles, including one on the game-icing TD by Knowshon Moreno. Rob Ninkovich, a mainstay in 2013, was taken off the field in nickel packages and was rarely allowed to rush the passer. The Patriots are set up to play a 4-3 defense with a nose and undertackle. A front of Jones, Easley, Wilfork, and Ninkovich with the likes of Zach Moore, Siliga, healthy Chris Jones and (ugh) Vellano would at least allow for some sort of rotation to coalesce. Instead, the Dolphins were able to bully the New England front line and wear them down, sapping their energy for the remainder of the game.

So... let me get this straight. If this film study is correct, the coaching staff thought it was a good idea to take their best pass rusher (by far) and have him playing two gap discipline in an alignment where his best fit is as an OLB? I guess maybe if you hit a crack rock that would be a good idea.

Rob0729 · Sep 9, 2014

VrabelJr said:
They weren't 2 gapping yesterday (only Wilfork was) so Chandler Jones' position was effectively unchanged. The only person affected by the use of the 3-4 was Ninkovich.

If you're going to dislike the use of the 3-4 at least dislike it for the right reasons. Bandwagon bashing is getting old. I agree we should be in more of a 4-3 look, by the way. It' suits our DL and depth at DT.

The thing is even when the Pats were a two gap 3-4 team exclusively, they frequently had one or both of their DEs one gap. That really hasn't changed.

But when he plays the DE in the 3-4 his position of where he lines up does change compared to where he lines up as a DE in the 4-3. In the 3-4, he lines up in between the tackle and guard. In the 4-3, he lines up outside the tackle. This isn't 100% for each formation, but most of the time.

Yes, Jones was effective as a pass rusher inside as a DT in a four man front last year, but only as a pass rusher. And he was only used there on certain packages. He is not a guy built to play inside the tackle on a regular basis. You need a guy with much more size and speed especially on running downs.

Kontradiction · Sep 9, 2014

VrabelJr said:
Chandler Jones was *literally* playing the same exact position in the 3-4 that he plays in the 4-3. He doesn't need to be heavier to play the same exact position.

Read my post after your's. Whomever you're parroting that off of is a dunce. Jones rarely two gaps as a 5-tech in the 43.

Rob0729 · Sep 9, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
He never lined up against an interior player. He line up over the lt all day just like he always does.

I will have to go back on look at the film, but I am almost positive he lined up inside the tackle rather than outside the tackle as a DE. He was not lined up on the guard like many 3-4 DEs, but he was still inside the line.

Rob0729 · Sep 9, 2014

KontradictioN said:
According to Pats Pulpit's film review, the Patriots did, indeed, have Chandler Jones two gapping...

http://www.patspulpit.com/2014/9/7/6119163/quick-take-miami-makes-the-patriots-cry

So... let me get this straight. If this film study is correct, the coaching staff thought it was a good idea to take their best pass rusher (by far) and have him playing two gap discipline in an alignment where his best fit is as an OLB? I guess maybe if you hit a crack rock that would be a good idea.

Reiss said the similiar thing about him two gapping (although Reiss isn't the best analyst in the world):

1. The way the Patriots employed Chandler Jones as a 3-4 defensive end makes one wonder if it best maximizes his assets. Jones’ length and pass-rushing skills generally fit best as an end-of-the-line player -- 4-3 defensive end or 3-4 outside linebacker -- yet he was mostly playing 3-4 defensive end in the team’s base package. Knowshon Moreno’s 15-yard run (8:37 remaining) was a good example of how Jones isn’t best suited for the responsibility. On the play, outside linebacker Dont’a Hightower set a nice edge to force the run back inside, but Jones was turned and couldn’t control his gap responsibilities to create the opening for Moreno to surge through. Jones later made a nice play against the run (5:10 remaining), but the feeling from here is that it’s sort of a waste to play him there, almost like moving Darrelle Revis to safety or Jerod Mayo to 3-4 outside linebacker. For a coaching staff that generally gets the most out of its players, and maximizes their skills, this was one thing that was a bit puzzling in the opener (especially given the extensive time to prepare for the game).

Kontradiction · Sep 9, 2014

Rob0729 said:
Reiss said the similiar thing about him two gapping (although Reiss isn't the best analyst in the world):

1. The way the Patriots employed Chandler Jones as a 3-4 defensive end makes one wonder if it best maximizes his assets. Jones’ length and pass-rushing skills generally fit best as an end-of-the-line player -- 4-3 defensive end or 3-4 outside linebacker -- yet he was mostly playing 3-4 defensive end in the team’s base package. Knowshon Moreno’s 15-yard run (8:37 remaining) was a good example of how Jones isn’t best suited for the responsibility. On the play, outside linebacker Dont’a Hightower set a nice edge to force the run back inside, but Jones was turned and couldn’t control his gap responsibilities to create the opening for Moreno to surge through. Jones later made a nice play against the run (5:10 remaining), but the feeling from here is that it’s sort of a waste to play him there, almost like moving Darrelle Revis to safety or Jerod Mayo to 3-4 outside linebacker. For a coaching staff that generally gets the most out of its players, and maximizes their skills, this was one thing that was a bit puzzling in the opener (especially given the extensive time to prepare for the game).

If you're lining up in the 34, Jones' best use as an OLB. It's why the Pats used him there in the preseason. In the 43, it's as a one-gapping 5-tech. Under no means should Jones be used as a two-gapping DE in the 34. That is a gross misuse of his strengths.

VrabelJr · Sep 9, 2014

Rob0729 said:
The thing is even when the Pats were a two gap 3-4 team exclusively, they frequently had one or both of their DEs one gap. That really hasn't changed.

But when he plays the DE in the 3-4 his position of where he lines up does change compared to where he lines up as a DE in the 4-3. In the 3-4, he lines up in between the tackle and guard. In the 4-3, he lines up outside the tackle. This isn't 100% for each formation, but most of the time.

Yes, Jones was effective as a pass rusher inside as a DT in a four man front last year, but only as a pass rusher. And he was only used there on certain packages. He is not a guy built to play inside the tackle on a regular basis. You need a guy with much more size and speed especially on running downs.

The reason it's called "5-technique" is because the DE lines up at the 5 spot, which is the outside shade of the tackle. It's impossible for Chandler Jones to have 2 gaps if he's playing 5-tech DE unless the TE comes to his side, which case our SAM LB will come to his side to cover that gap, which means Jones is back to 1 gapping again.

I tried to make a diagram but the formatting keeps breaking.

Ring 6 · Sep 9, 2014

KontradictioN said:
According to Pats Pulpit's film review, the Patriots did, indeed, have Chandler Jones two gapping...

http://www.patspulpit.com/2014/9/7/6119163/quick-take-miami-makes-the-patriots-cry

So... let me get this straight. If this film study is correct, the coaching staff thought it was a good idea to take their best pass rusher (by far) and have him playing two gap discipline in an alignment where his best fit is as an OLB? I guess maybe if you hit a crack rock that would be a good idea.

FAIL
From the article you quoted

I really don't have too much to say right now except for a smattering of random thoughts that I Tweeted during the game, and I'm sure that once I rewatch I'll have a slightly more crystallized opinion of what happened in Miami. However, here's what I think I think.

That is not 'film study'

Ring 6 · Sep 9, 2014

KontradictioN said:
If you're lining up in the 34, Jones' best use as an OLB. It's why the Pats used him there in the preseason. In the 43, it's as a one-gapping 5-tech. Under no means should Jones be used as a two-gapping DE in the 34. That is a gross misuse of his strengths.

Agree, but he was not 2gapping

Ring 6 · Sep 9, 2014

Rob0729 said:
Reiss said the similiar thing about him two gapping (although Reiss isn't the best analyst in the world):

1. The way the Patriots employed Chandler Jones as a 3-4 defensive end makes one wonder if it best maximizes his assets. Jones’ length and pass-rushing skills generally fit best as an end-of-the-line player -- 4-3 defensive end or 3-4 outside linebacker -- yet he was mostly playing 3-4 defensive end in the team’s base package. Knowshon Moreno’s 15-yard run (8:37 remaining) was a good example of how Jones isn’t best suited for the responsibility. On the play, outside linebacker Dont’a Hightower set a nice edge to force the run back inside, but Jones was turned and couldn’t control his gap responsibilities to create the opening for Moreno to surge through. Jones later made a nice play against the run (5:10 remaining), but the feeling from here is that it’s sort of a waste to play him there, almost like moving Darrelle Revis to safety or Jerod Mayo to 3-4 outside linebacker. For a coaching staff that generally gets the most out of its players, and maximizes their skills, this was one thing that was a bit puzzling in the opener (especially given the extensive time to prepare for the game).

That does not say he played 2 gap.

TonyTucker · Sep 9, 2014

Mack Herron said:
Maybe someone in the media will ask BB? Nah...........

They would, but he'd just sniff (and you'd hear the snot in his nose) and say that they did what was best for the football team.

The misuse of Chandler Jones week one at Miami

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