Where will the Patriots rank on Defense in 2014?

Saint Pat · Sep 5, 2014

If the Patriots don't end up in the top five defensively, Matt Patricia be like:

FourierSeries · Sep 5, 2014

NordicVoyager said:
Let's say the 2014 Patriots D is top 5 (by points scored against). Which other teams are part of that elite five group? Seattle? Bengals?

Arizona.

Brady6 · Sep 5, 2014

VrabelJr said:
The difference between a 3-4 and a 4-3 is so slim these days it almost isn't even worth talking about. Some 3-4's look more like a 4-3 (think Houston when JJ Watt is at RDE) and some 4-3s look more like a 3-4 (think Seattle).

I do not care how similar they are scheme is inconsistent, and Patricia should have a scheme in place by now. There is a difference between adding, removing and tweaking your scheme and starting over repeatedly. We finished last season as a 4-3 team, we have spent the 4 preseason games as a 3-4 team, we have essentially the same personnel, if anything players like Spikes fit better in a 3-4, so if a 3-4 was the better scheme why have we been in a 4-3 for the past 2-3 years?

Brady6 · Sep 5, 2014

NordicVoyager said:
Let's say the 2014 Patriots D is top 5 (by points scored against). Which other teams are part of that elite five group? Seattle? Bengals?

Outside of us, I would say the better defenses are:

- Seattle
- San Francisco
- St. Louis
- Carolina
- Arizona

VrabelJr · Sep 5, 2014

Brady6 said:
I do not care how similar they are scheme is inconsistent, and Patricia should have a scheme in place by now. There is a difference between adding, removing and tweaking your scheme and starting over repeatedly. We finished last season as a 4-3 team, we have spent the 4 preseason games as a 3-4 team, we have essentially the same personnel, if anything players like Spikes fit better in a 3-4, so if a 3-4 was the better scheme why have we been in a 4-3 for the past 2-3 years?

I think that's a bias from:

A) Watching our defense play a lot more than watching Seattle's defense or any other defense
B) Our defense hasn't been successful lately so we tend to over scrutinize it

Seattle changes things up just as much as we do.

Regarding your Brandon Spikes example, I think that is another flaw in thinking we Pats fans have because Spikes is similar to a player of Patriots past when we did play the 3-4. Spikes' position is the same in both the 3-4 and 4-3. It was just hard to pencil Spikes in at MLB because Mayo and Hightower were both better than him at that position as well as their positions.

VrabelJr · Sep 5, 2014

Brady6 said:
Outside of us, I would say the better defenses are:

- Seattle
- San Francisco
- St. Louis
- Carolina
- Arizona

New Orleans and Baltimore could also be as good or better than us.

I would remove St Louis from that list because I think their offense is going to put their defense onto the field way too often for them to hold up.

Brady6 · Sep 5, 2014

JMC00 said:
Not to certain National and Boston Mediots.

I begrudgingly had to listen to douche and squeaky on 98.5 yesterday as my choice was either listen or look like an idiot with his fingers in his ears at a HVAC supply house.

Anyways they were rattling off what that Pats defense ranks have been the past few years and not one time did I hear them mention where they had ranked in PA. Which has been

'13- #10
'12- #9
'11- #15 (Even with that bad defense they were sill in the top half the league in PA)
'10- #8

I guess beating a team 38-7 isn't good if you allow the opposing QB to throw for 300 yards and convert on a few third downs when the opposing team has to come out and sling in the 2nd half because they are down 20-0 at HT and you just go into sort of a vanilla, prevent and keep everything in front of you defense.

I do think yards per game are important, and I am not an advocate for the bend but not break philosophy. As we have seen in the past if you play near fire long enough you end up getting burned, when you let a team get within scoring distance you allow the other team to rise up and make a play over our player when he has too.

More important than that the burden on the team is heavy, last season the Patriots had 1118 plays run against them, which was the third most in the NFL. Compare that to the Seahawks who had 990 plays run against them, can you imagine if Chandler Jones had played 120 less snaps last season? He would have been fresher when it mattered most during the playoffs.

Time of possession also plays; the longer an offense is on the field the less time Brady and our offense have out there to score points.

Honestly, I get your point, points per game are the most significant factors, but allowing a ton of yardage is not a good thing and not something that should be considered insignificant.

Brady6 · Sep 5, 2014

VrabelJr said:
I think that's a bias from:

A) Watching our defense play a lot more than watching Seattle's defense or any other defense
B) Our defense hasn't been successful lately so we tend to over scrutinize it

No it is not a bias, it is a why if we finished last season as a 4-3 team, would we lose 2 of our top 5 linebackers and think, gee this is a great time to convert to a 3-4 team. It has nothing to do with Seattle or their scheme.

patsfanincleveland · Sep 5, 2014

JMC00 said:
Not to certain National and Boston Mediots.

I begrudgingly had to listen to douche and squeaky on 98.5 yesterday as my choice was either listen or look like an idiot with his fingers in his ears at a HVAC supply house.

Anyways they were rattling off what that Pats defense ranks have been the past few years and not one time did I hear them mention where they had ranked in PA. Which has been

'13- #10
'12- #9
'11- #15 (Even with that bad defense they were sill in the top half the league in PA)
'10- #8

I guess beating a team 38-7 isn't good if you allow the opposing QB to throw for 300 yards and convert on a few third downs when the opposing team has to come out and sling in the 2nd half because they are down 20-0 at HT and you just go into sort of a vanilla, prevent and keep everything in front of you defense.

Actually, it's not just national and Boston. patsfans.com has plenty riding in the clown car with them.

These are the same people who so fixate on the yardage and other dinosaur stats that they think it's a great idea to get stops so the offense can take over in garbage time.

That way Gronk can be out there with a few minutes left and up by over 30 points (2012 vs Colts)...and he can break his arm.

So what if it cost a Super Bowl. Yards allowed were limited.

VrabelJr · Sep 5, 2014

Brady6 said:
No it is not a bias, it is a why if we finished last season as a 4-3 team, would we lose 2 of our top 5 linebackers and think, gee this is a great time to convert to a 3-4 team. It has nothing to do with Seattle or their scheme.

The answer is: defensive linemen dictate whether you play a 30 or 40 front, not linebackers. After all, 2 of your "linebacker" spots in a 3-4 are played by defensive linemen anyway.

Brady6 · Sep 5, 2014

VrabelJr said:
The answer is: defensive linemen dictate whether you play a 30 or 40 front, not linebackers.

You think are DL fit better in a 30 front than a 40?

Vince Wilfork
Dominique Easley
Sealver Siliga
Chris Jones
Joe Vellano

Outside of Wilfork and maybe Siliga I do not see it at all, and I think Wilfork is more disruptive as a 1-Tech DT.

cstjohn17 · Sep 5, 2014

Top 10 in points
Top 20 in yards

patsfanincleveland · Sep 5, 2014

Brady6 said:
I do think yards per game are important, and I am not an advocate for the bend but not break philosophy. As we have seen in the past if you play near fire long enough you end up getting burned, when you let a team get within scoring distance you allow the other team to rise up and make a play over our player when he has too.

More important than that the burden on the team is heavy, last season the Patriots had 1118 plays run against them, which was the third most in the NFL. Compare that to the Seahawks who had 990 plays run against them, can you imagine if Chandler Jones had played 120 less snaps last season? He would have been fresher when it mattered most during the playoffs.

Time of possession also plays; the longer an offense is on the field the less time Brady and our offense have out there to score points.

Honestly, I get your point, points per game are the most significant factors, but allowing a ton of yardage is not a good thing and not something that should be considered insignificant.

Actually no

The reality is "hurry up" is a two sided transaction. Any offense playing the Patriots will be forced to adopt more plays or never have any hope. Fewer plays in Seattle is a function of how they played offense.

Your real problem is you don't understand how modern football operates and are stuck with the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" paradigm.

The reality is the perceived yardage problem of the past few years is more of function of blow outs vs anything fundamental. Back in 2011, if one excludes the 90 minutes of garbage time and prorates the balance over a full 16 game/960 minutes played....the Patriots defense was about top 10.

Why anybody would fixate on Vince Young throwing for 400 yards down 40 points has always been a complete source of amazement.

VrabelJr · Sep 5, 2014

Brady6 said:
You think are DL fit better in a 30 front than a 40?

Vince Wilfork
Dominique Easley
Sealver Siliga
Chris Jones
Joe Vellano

Outside of Wilfork and maybe Siliga I do not see it at all, and I think Wilfork is more disruptive as a 1-Tech DT.

I think we'll be in the nickel so much that the difference between being in a 3-4 or a 4-3 will be whether Chandler Jones is standing (3-4) or has his hand in the dirt along with whoever is playing LDE. If that LDE is Ninkovich then we're in a 4-3. If that LDE is a DT then we're in a 4-3 under, which is a lot like a 3-4 anyway.

BobDigital · Sep 5, 2014

Well after looking at it really closely I think we SHOULD (if assuming) be the 2nd best defense in the NFL in PPG this season.

Here is why. The top Ds going into the year were Seattle, SF, Carolina, Cinci, Arizona. All of them have very legit Ds IMO.

However lets look at each.

Seattle - Just about as good as last year. Should be the top D again.
SF - Missing Aldon Smith will hurt. Also Justin Smith is a year older.. 34 now. I think they decline a bit
Cinci - A very good D last year even with missing Atkins half they year. However their DBs are still meh IMO.
Arizona - They would have been #2 IMO but missing 2 or so starting LBs will knock em down a bit.
Carolina - The D should be as good as last year but that O is won't. That D is gonna see more time on the field because of it which leads to more points given up.

So on paper I think health permitting we are the 2nd best D. in reality probably the 3rd best right now due to other team's injuries/suspensions. It will be good enough though.

Brady6 · Sep 5, 2014

patsfanincleveland said:
Actually no

The reality is "hurry up" is a two sided transaction. Any offense playing the Patriots will be forced to adopt more plays or never have any hope. Fewer plays in Seattle is a function of how they played offense.

We used the hurry up very little in 2013.

Your real problem is you don't understand how modern football operates and are stuck with the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" paradigm.

Gee thanks for telling me I do not know how modern day football works, I would be willing to bet I have forgotten more about football than you have ever known.

The reality is the perceived yardage problem of the past few years is more of function of blow outs vs anything fundamental. Back in 2011, if one excludes the 90 minutes of garbage time and prorates the balance over a full 16 game/960 minutes played....the Patriots defense was about top 10.

I am not talking about 2011; I am talking about 2013, when we won 4 games by more than 10 points and 2 by more than 20 points, so blowouts were not a factor.

Brady6 · Sep 5, 2014

VrabelJr said:
I think we'll be in the nickel so much that the difference between being in a 3-4 or a 4-3 will be whether Chandler Jones is standing (3-4) or has his hand in the dirt along with whoever is playing LDE. If that LDE is Ninkovich then we're in a 4-3. If that LDE is a DT then we're in a 4-3 under, which is a lot like a 3-4 anyway.

The scheme should be more consistent, I do not care what it is 3-4, 5-2, 4-3, 2-5, it really does not matter to me, but to be as good as Seattle we need to have a consistent scheme that players can master.

ausbacker · Sep 5, 2014

patsinthesnow said:
HOF Talent:
Revis

All-Pro Talent:
Mayo
McCourty

Probowl Talent:
Jones
Wilfork

Solid Starters:
Ninkovich
Dennard
Browner
Arrington (slot)

Young talent that could prove to be solid starters or above:
Hightower
Collins
Easley
Butler
Ryan
Siliga/Jones

BB is to blame if this defense isn't top 3-5. The only spot were talent deficient is SS.

Oswlek said:
Hmmmm... Not sure about Mayo. He was terrific last season - probably his best - and I think he was peaking at pro-bowl level. He's definitely not All-Pro without another up-tick.

It is also possible that the young talent adds another term:
Young talent that could prove to be solid starters or above or below.

I think we can safely say HT is starting caliber, but thus far he's been a mediocre starter. I'm high on Collins, but he's only had one great game. Ryan/Siliga/Jones all flashed, but you need more than that speak with any confidence about. And Butler is a UDFA who hasn't even played a game yet. Sure he had a promising camp, but every team in the league has a Butler at some position.

Yes, I know you said "could", but there are numerous scenarios I can see where a few youngsters disappoint. Not that I'm not confident, I'm just not ready to say that there is no way this defense is outside of the top 5 just yet.

Edit: Oh, and injuries could make a huge impact due to depth issues. Imagine if just Collins and MCourty get hurt early. As good as Revis is, just that would give NE real problems stopping the pass.

The level of under-appreciation shown to Jerod Mayo continues to boggle the mind. He absolutely is an All Pro level talent/performer. It is my hope that he will be allowed to roam more now he has a compliment of similarly talented linebackers around him.

Oswlek · Sep 5, 2014

ausbacker said:
The level of under-appreciation shown to Jerod Mayo continues to boggle the mind. He absolutely is an All Pro level talent/performer. It is my hope that he will be allowed to roam more now he has a compliment of similarly talented linebackers around him.

No. If anything, Mayo is overrated, though I liked what I saw of him last year a good deal.

ausbacker · Sep 5, 2014

Oswlek said:
No. If anything, Mayo is overrated, though I liked what I saw of him last year a good deal.

No, Mayo is a fantastic player and thoroughly deserving of All Pro status. I cannot wait to see his talent next to Jamie Collins for an extended period of time.

Where will the Patriots rank on Defense in 2014?

In the Starting Line-Up

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

Pro Bowl Player

Pro Bowl Player

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

Pro Bowl Player

Pro Bowl Player

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

Pro Bowl Player

PatsFans.com Supporter

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

Pro Bowl Player

Pro Bowl Player

Pro Bowl Player

TB12

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

TB12

Similar threads