Gronk alarmism (or not)

Oswlek said:

Precisely. Had NE not rushed Gronk back on the field, he would have been completely fine by February and not had all the arm surgeries, or the reinjury, that color people's perception. The arm also had nothing whatsoever to do with Gronk's knee injury, and I read that current medical procedure has a negligible re-injury risk.

I'll buy the case that Gronk is an injury risk due to his style of play, but that isn't the crux of most arguments, nor is it all that particular to Rob.

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Agreed. I think the Pats are just more willing to bring vulnerable players back for the playoffs, because the stakes are that much higher. In the last two years, that's really burned them on both Gronk and Dobson, as those reinjuries have cost the players their offseasons, and have had ramifications going into the following season. Going forward, maybe they'll revise their philosophy on using reinjury-prone players in the playoffs. Or maybe not. In either case, I think that's more a reflection on the team than on Gronk/Dobson.

JR4 said:

This is True but I wonder if you did some research on injury history of NFL players if you might see
a pattern. Try Sam Bradford for starters and I believe you will find others.
By the way Sam Bradford was dealing with injuries before his 2013 ACL injury and subsequent 2014 ACL injury.
Not saying once you get a severe injury that you will definitely get another, just that there is an increased probability. IMO.
Of course non professionals don't usually get all the rehab work that pros get.

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For every Sam Bradford or Thomas Davis that you can point to in the last 7-8 years, you could point to 5-10x as many Tom Bradys and Adrian Petersons. In the vast majority of cases, once the player is fully recovered he's no more prone to reinjury than the average player.

I feel (even)stupider for having read that. So big guys will never be healthy? Then substitute welker. OK, small guys will never be healthy?

KontradictioN said:

Gronk's injury prone due to three things. You've touched on two of them...

1. The way he plays ("smash and dash" style).

2. Bad luck.

3. His size and strength.

Unfortunately, due to #3 being correct as well on top of the fact that DB's will draw a flag for hitting high now, we should continue to see Gronk suffer through injuries when you take the other two into account. Hopefully they will be of the more nagging variety going forward.

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I would agree he needs to modify his style. He can be just as effective without thrashing his limbs around every play. most vets that lasted have modified their style to take less (and dish out more)punishment

RayClay said:

I would agree he needs to modify his style. He can be just as effective without thrashing his limbs around every play. most vets that lasted have modified their style to take less (and dish out more)punishment

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He needs to study Gonzalez. Earlier in his career, Gonzalez played with a sort of reckless abandon before he modified his to play it more safe. The result was a long, Hall of Fame career. Gronk can certainly stand to take notes but he won't. The result will, unfortunately, be more injuries in all probability.

I'm thinking the special IR return designation may b reserved for Gronk in case something happens earlyish in the season, so that we can still get him back for POs

KontradictioN said:

He needs to study Gonzalez. Earlier in his career, Gonzalez played with a sort of reckless abandon before he modified his to play it more safe. The result was a long, Hall of Fame career. Gronk can certainly stand to take notes but he won't. The result will, unfortunately, be more injuries in all probability.

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The thing is there isn't one injury that Gronk has suffered that you can attribute to his reckless abandon style. He broke his arm blocking. He rebroke it catching a ball falling out of bounds (closest thing to reckless abandon, but we see receivers do this all the time). He sprained his ankle with Polllard diving at his legs from behind. He tore his ACL running in the open field (although you may argue he might have been able to see Ward and jump up to avoid having his foot planted).

The plays where you see Gronk go down and you hold your breath, he usually bounces right back up. That one where he goes over end like this:



He bounces right back up.

Rob0729 said:

The thing is there isn't one injury that Gronk has suffered that you can attribute to his reckless abandon style. He broke his arm blocking. He rebroke it catching a ball falling out of bounds (closest thing to reckless abandon, but we see receivers do this all the time). He sprained his ankle with Polllard diving at his legs from behind. He tore his ACL running in the open field (although you may argue he might have been able to see Ward and jump up to avoid having his foot planted).

The plays where you see Gronk go down and you hold your breath, he usually bounces right back up. That one where he goes over end like this:

He bounces right back up.

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The ankle was the fault of his reckless style. He kept trying to drag Pollard for more yards. The forearm was just bad luck. The knee was a cross between his strength and his size. Again, all three of those are the reasons why Gronk has been injury prone to date (outside of the 2010 season and postseason). Gronk will still continue to be big and he'll still have a reckless style, according to him. If the bad luck doesn't change then I don't see why his injury habit would either.

I've watched this play numerous times (both before and against right now) and I can't see how recklessness has anything to do with the injury.



What should he have done differently?

KontradictioN said:

The ankle was the fault of his reckless style. He kept trying to drag Pollard for more yards. The forearm was just bad luck. The knee was a cross between his style and his size. Again, all three of those are the reasons why Gronk has been injury prone to date (outside of the 2010 season and postseason). Gronk will still continue to be big and he'll still have a reckless style, according to him. If the bad luck doesn't change then I don't see why his injury habit would either.

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I don't consider any of them being reckless though. What TE doesn't try to run through a tackle? I don't call that reckless because most TE would have done the same thing. And the knee injury was an open field tackle where the defender went low. If Ward tackled him in the chest area, no one would have thought anything about the play at least his running style.

Oswlek said:

I've watched this play numerous times (both before and against right now) and I can't see how recklessness has anything to do with the injury.



What should he have done differently?

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You might want to re-read my post. Both of them, actually. I highighted three things in particular as being the reasons why Gronk has been injury prone. That one wasn't due to recklessness. It was due to his strength and size.

Rob0729 said:

I don't consider any of them being reckless though. What TE doesn't try to run through a tackle? I don't call that reckless because most TE would have done the same thing. And the knee injury was an open field tackle where the defender went low. If Ward tackled him in the chest area, no one would have thought anything about the play at least his running style.

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1. Most TE's wouldn't have done the same thing. They probably would have went down because a guy sliding down your hips leaves you open to a twisted/sprained/broken ankle when gravity evetually does it's work. That injury had everything to do with Gronk's style of play.

2. What sort of safety in their right mind is going to hit a 6'7" prototype barrelling full speed down the seam in the chest? If I was coaching the Browns defense and Ward did that and Gronk went on to gain more yards after the initial contact, I would have benched Ward. Gronk's superior size is a blessing and a curse. Unfortunately, do to that and the rules changes, he's going to continue to be hit low in the open field.

With more weapons to throw to Brady can spread the ball out. This will make it easier for Gronk he will not need to be the focus of the offense. He will get his catches, but he won't have to take so many hits. Will he play all 16 games probably not, but 12-14 would be nice.

Rob0729 said:

If Ward tackled him in the chest area, no one would have thought anything about the play at least his running style.

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I second what Kontra said why would Ward do that? He would be on the streets if I was the Coach and he Tackled Gronk the way you think he should have. You are Coached to take the Big Boys down by their legs or ankles. No defender is going to win taking on Gronk up high. Gronk also had a injury history in College with his back..

KontradictioN said:

You might want to re-read my post. Both of them, actually. I highighted three things in particular as being the reasons why Gronk has been injury prone. That one wasn't due to recklessness. It was due to his strength and size.



1. Most TE's wouldn't have done the same thing. They probably would have went down because a guy sliding down your hips leaves you open to a twisted/sprained/broken ankle when gravity evetually does it's work. That injury had everything to do with Gronk's style of play.

2. What sort of safety in their right mind is going to hit a 6'7" prototype barrelling full speed down the seam in the chest? If I was coaching the Browns defense and Ward did that and Gronk went on to gain more yards after the initial contact, I would have benched Ward. Gronk's superior size is a blessing and a curse. Unfortunately, do to that and the rules changes, he's going to continue to be hit low in the open field.

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1. I totally disagree. Maybe a smaller WR might, but most TEs and bigger WRs fight through tackles. But you mischaracterized what happened. Gronk kept running while Pollard had him wrapped around his waist and Pollard didn't slide down his body until he was bringing down Gronk. And he landed on Gronk's ankle which could have happened if Gronk didn't fight through the run:



2. I am not saying a safety would tackle him around the chest area. I am just giving a different scenario. But he could have tackled him around the hips and thigh area and would have done what most safeties do in that situation and the likelihood of Gronk tearing his ACL would have gone down exponentially.

PatsFan2 said:

I second what Kontra said why would Ward do that? He would be on the streets if I was the Coach and he Tackled Gronk the way you think he should have. You are Coached to take the Big Boys down by their legs or ankles. No defender is going to win taking on Gronk up high. Gronk also had a injury history in College with his back..

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And no one has really come up with what could Gronk have done different. It was a bang bang play. He caught the ball ran about two steps and was hit.

Gronk had one significant injury in college, but again, it isn't what Freeman suggests that he is constantly getting injured. He had three injuries in the Pros and only two knocked him out. His career will probably be like this for the foreseeable future. He will either got for years without missing a game or he will have a significant injury that knocks him out. I do not worry about injuries that will knock him out for several games. It will either be a season ender or he will not miss a game and probably nothing in between.

Rob0729 said:

1. I totally disagree. Maybe a smaller WR might, but most TEs and bigger WRs fight through tackles. But you mischaracterized what happened. Gronk kept running while Pollard had him wrapped around his waist and Pollard didn't slide down his body until he was bringing down Gronk. And he landed on Gronk's ankle which could have happened if Gronk didn't fight through the run:

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Again, I have to wonder what people are looking at when they post videos and GIF images. It's plain as day what is right there. Pollard hits Gronk, Gronk takes exactly four steps, in those four steps, a force called gravity takes effect, and Pollar slides down on top of Gronk's foot which then twists. If you want proof, stop the video right at the 7 second mark. Gronk is still on his feet and Pollard's ass is on top of Gronk's twisted ankle. Gronk has his playing style to thank for that injury. And I played TE on top of DE. One thing I learned when playing TE is when to go down. Gronk has freely admitted that is not his style.

2. I am not saying a safety would tackle him around the chest area. I am just giving a different scenario. But he could have tackled him around the hips and thigh area and would have done what most safeties do in that situation and the likelihood of Gronk tearing his ACL would have gone down exponentially.

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When you're moving at that speed, all you know is that you're trying to hit the other guy low. You're not really aiming unless your processing speed is near super human. It seems pretty clear cut that that's what Ward was trying to do. The reason he was trying to do it was due to Gronk's size.

KontradictioN said:

Again, I have to wonder what people are looking at when they post videos and GIF images. It's plain as day what is right there. Pollard hits Gronk, Gronk takes exactly four steps, in those four steps, a force called gravity takes effect, and Pollar slides down on top of Gronk's foot which then twists. If you want proof, stop the video right at the 7 second mark. Gronk is still on his feet and Pollard's ass is on top of Gronk's twisted ankle. Gronk has his playing style to thank for that injury. And I played TE on top of DE. One thing I learned when playing TE is when to go down. Gronk has freely admitted that is not his style.

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I saw exactly as I saw it he kept running with Pollard around his waist. Pollard doesn't start to slide down his leg until he trying to bring Gronk down. But it was Pollard's ass that landed on Gronk's ankle. Whether Gronk went down or dragged him for four steps, there was probably as good a chance that as Pollard lands on on Gronk's ankle a he brought him down.

But no matter how you look at it. If you consider this a reckless play by Gronk, it is time to turn the game into two hand touch or teach Gronk just to flop when he catches the ball. I expect receivers to do exactly what Gronk did. Pollard did not get a clean hit on Gronk and odds are better if he runs through that play that Pollard loses his grip and Gronk runs for another ten yards or a TD than Gronk getting injured.

You teach receivers to run through the play. You go down if a defender is coming at you full speed and you cannot avoid the hit to protect your body. But if a defender has you around the waist and isn't bringing you down, you keep running. If he was wrapped around his legs, that might be another story. But that wasn't the case.

When you're moving at that speed, all you know is that you're trying to hit the other guy low. You're not really aiming unless your processing speed is near super human. It seems pretty clear cut that that's what Ward was trying to do. The reason he was trying to do it was due to Gronk's size.

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Whatever Ward was trying to do, you still haven't said anything that Gronk could have done different. If you look at the replay, it was literally a second from when Gronk looked back for the ball and when he turned and Ward hit him. Gronk was running at full speed and probably didn't even see Ward until he was about to hit him.

If anything, I think Brady had more control on whether Gronk was going to get hit at knee level than Gronk did. If Brady got him the ball a second earlier (if that was possible), Gronk would have had more time to react.

Rob0729 said:

I saw exactly as I saw it he kept running with Pollard around his waist. Pollard doesn't start to slide down his leg until he trying to bring Gronk down. But it was Pollard's ass that landed on Gronk's ankle. Whether Gronk went down or dragged him for four steps, there was probably as good a chance that as Pollard lands on on Gronk's ankle a he brought him down.

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No. If Gronk is down, Pollard's landing probably doesn't twist the ankle like that due to the angle that the foot is pointing in.

But no matter how you look at it. If you consider this a reckless play by Gronk, it is time to turn the game into two hand touch or teach Gronk just to flop when he catches the ball. I expect receivers to do exactly what Gronk did.

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I never said Gronk was reckless in this play. I said his style can be reckless but never made a claim that he was reckless on this play. In this play, his style did him zero favors. How you can disagree with that is beyond me.

Pollard did not get a clean hit on Gronk and odds are better if he runs through that play that Pollard loses his grip and Gronk runs for another ten yards or a TD than Gronk getting injured.

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Pollard got about as clean of a hit as one can expect from a defender trailing the play.

Whatever Ward was trying to do, you still haven't said anything that Gronk could have done different. If you look at the replay, it was literally a second from when Gronk looked back for the ball and when he turned and Ward hit him. Gronk was running at full speed and probably didn't even see Ward until he was about to hit him.

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There's nothing Gronk could have done differently outside of losing a few inches and pounds. This was an injury in which his size coupled with the rules changes to neuter defenders ultimately did him in. You'll remember I highlighted three reasons why the guy is injury prone.

I know DB's are supposed to target low now due to the rules against headshots BUT, i'm pretty sure you arent taught to launch yourself helmet first at someones knee....that was a dirty/stupid play IMO.

he couldve easily tried to tackle Gronk by the legs rather than just launch himself at Gronk head first. that kind of play is dangerous and will wreck anyone

KontradictioN said:

This was an injury in which his size coupled with the rules changes to neuter defenders ultimately did him in. You'll remember I highlighted three reasons why the guy is injury prone.

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Understandable, but it isn't specific to Gronk in any way. You might as well be explaining why all bigger receivers in the NFL are higher injury risks than they used to be. Something I don't necessarily disagree with, BTW, I just don't think it is a valid reason to claim Gronk is injury prone relative to his peers.

RIpats88 said:

I know DB's are supposed to target low now due to the rules against headshots BUT, i'm pretty sure you arent taught to launch yourself helmet first at someones knee....that was a dirty/stupid play IMO.

he couldve easily tried to tackle Gronk by the legs rather than just launch himself at Gronk head first. that kind of play is dangerous and will wreck anyone

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It's actually a play that football players consider dirtier than a head shot. Stay the F away from my knees, man!