2014 Practice Squad Thread

DarrylS said:

Always find these arguments somewhat silly as in the absence of some type of longitudinal study of all draft picks across the NFL makes any conclusions presumptuous..

The reality is most teams make mistakes on draft picks, make mistakes on UDFA's and trades.. overall we have had 13 winning seasons, despite what seems to be a feeling on ineptitude on the part of BB...

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The 13 consecutive winning seasons is, of course, the right and holistic way to look at this. With one very, very notable exception, the fate of sixth and seventh round picks are fairly minor when the whole picture is looked at.

So if Quarles and Butler were drafted in place of Halapio and Gallon, that would be better?

Or we'd be where we are now

Brady6 said:

Straw man, you are labeling draft picks as priority UDFA and saying that 10 spots instead of 8 is not an expanded practice squad, you might want to consider some self-reflection. As I said, 13 or 14 picks made the team in the past 2 drafts, so to have 3 times that in just this draft alone not only miss the 53-man roster but also miss the practice squad that indicates that it was poor draft choices. When a player spends 4 months with your organization and you do not even have interest in letting him join your practice squad, you made a poor decision drafting him, and if you asked Belichick, I am sure he would own it and say it was a bad decision. Comparing our failures to other failures or historical failures does not excuse or justify the failure, the historical misses were failures just like these are failures.

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B6, this is getting really argumentative. You are entitled to your opinion, but it's not constructive to the thread, IMO.

FWIW, I think that 6th and 7th round picks are very close to UDFAs for teams in terms of the amount of cap hit, likelihood of success, and emotional investment that the team makes in them. There is a large degree of chance in any draft pick, but especially for late round picks they are not necessarily expected to make the roster, and are in a "prove it" situation. That does NOT mean that they don't count, don't have value, or should be eliminated, and it certainly doesn't mean that teams can't make mistakes with those picks. But given the volatility of the situation, it's probably not something to make a huge deal of at this early juncture. As Manx suggests, it's "time to move on".

mayoclinic said:

B6, this is getting really argumentative. You are entitled to your opinion, but it's not constructive to the thread, IMO.

FWIW, I think that 6th and 7th round picks are very close to UDFAs for teams in terms of the amount of cap hit, likelihood of success, and emotional investment that the team makes in them. There is a large degree of chance in any draft pick, but especially for late round picks they are not necessarily expected to make the roster, and are in a "prove it" situation. That does NOT mean that they don't count, don't have value, or should be eliminated, and it certainly doesn't mean that teams can't make mistakes with those picks. But given the volatility of the situation, it's probably not something to make a huge deal of at this early juncture. As Manx suggests, it's "time to move on".

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I am not upset at all, if I go to the store right now and buy a scratch ticket for $5 and it is a loser, I am going to be disappointed, it does not matter that the odds of me winning are extremely low in below 0.00001%. I spent $5 of my money trying to win something and I lost, that is disappointing, the same logic applies here in my mind, the Patriots used a draft pick to get a player, are the odds low that the player turns out to be a good player, sure but it is still disappointing when it is the outcome.

I was never making a huge deal of it, I said they were disappointing and then 9 posters decided to quote my post and tell me that I am not allowed to be disappointed, and telling me draft picks were not really draft picks, and 2 more players on the practice squad was not really 2 more players. I want a successful player with every pick we make, and if we do not get one it is a disappointment for me, I can understand mistakes or failure but I not going to just accept it and say it is no biggie.

AzPatsFan said:

The Jake Bequette story is unusual. BB has waited for two years and Jake finally showed something in preseason Games 3 and 4. Maybe he is just a late bloomer and BB sensed something there, or the switch to OLB as well as DE saved his career.

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I can promise that BB did not decide to add Bequette to the PS based on his performance in Games 3 and 4.

No one seems to understand the role Jake plays on this roster, including me. The idea that he has photos of Belichick is hysterical and apt, but would only make sense if you believed that Belichick cares.

Someone should ask Jake. I can promise Belichick didn't do it thoughtlessly, or out of sentiment.

Brady6 said:

I am not upset at all, if I go to the store right now and buy a scratch ticket for $5 and it is a loser, I am going to be disappointed, it does not matter that the odds of me winning are extremely low in below 0.00001%. I spent $5 of my money trying to win something and I lost, that is disappointing, the same logic applies here in my mind, the Patriots used a draft pick to get a player, are the odds low that the player turns out to be a good player, sure but it is still disappointing when it is the outcome.

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Fair enough. I think most of us are disappointed when a pick doest pan out, regardless of how late it was made. Jon Halapio was picked right in front of one of my binkies (Antone Exum), and it hurts all the more because he flopped. But anytime you play the kind of game you describe there's an inherent understanding that the odds of success are low, and that you won't hit on every ticket; it's human to be disappointed, but unrealistic to expect success on each try. Moreover, the analogy certainly isn't exact: in this case we've also picked up "free" tickets such as Chris Jones, Sealver Siliga, Kenbrell Thompkins, Malcolm Butler, Kelcy Quarles, etc.

Brady6 said:

I am not upset at all, if I go to the store right now and buy a scratch ticket for $5 and it is a loser, I am going to be disappointed, it does not matter that the odds of me winning are extremely low in below 0.00001%. I spent $5 of my money trying to win something and I lost, that is disappointing, the same logic applies here in my mind, the Patriots used a draft pick to get a player, are the odds low that the player turns out to be a good player, sure but it is still disappointing when it is the outcome.

I was never making a huge deal of it, I said they were disappointing and then 9 posters decided to quote my post and tell me that I am not allowed to be disappointed, and telling me draft picks were not really draft picks, and 2 more players on the practice squad was not really 2 more players. I want a successful player with every pick we make, and if we do not get one it is a disappointment for me, I can understand mistakes or failure but I not going to just accept it and say it is no biggie.

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I understand the logic of your "I will be disappointed to lose no matter what the odds are to be successful" rebuttal to my previous argument and now others that even first round picks have a 30% bust rate in the NFL -and the late round picks we are talking about have a very marginal chance (20% and less) to even make it in the NFL.

But by that same logic may I ask, why do you keep making so many mistakes when buying lottery tickets? Why dont you just buy winners?

mayoclinic said:

Fair enough. I think most of us are disappointed when a pick doest pan out, regardless of how late it was made. Jon Halapio was picked right in front of one of my binkies (Antone Exum), and it hurts all the more because he flopped. But anytime you play the kind of game you describe there's an inherent understanding that the odds of success are low, and that you won't hit on every ticket; it's human to be disappointed, but unrealistic to expect success on each try. Moreover, the analogy certainly isn't exact: in this case we've also picked up "free" tickets such as Chris Jones, Sealver Siliga, Kenbrell Thompkins, Malcolm Butler, Kelcy Quarles, etc.

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That is what annoys me about the Halapio pick too because I wanted Exum as well. I would have went Exum, Garrett Scott, and Terence Fede instead of Halapio, Moore, and Thomas. I was happy with the Moore pick though he was a good selection I had him and Fede as the 2 late round DEs I liked.

I also would have taken Trey Burton over Gallon.

Danger Zone said:

I understand the logic of your "I will be disappointed to lose no matter what the odds are to be successful" rebuttal to my previous argument and now others that even first round picks have a 30% bust rate in the NFL -and the late round picks we are talking about have a very marginal chance (20% and less) to even make it in the NFL.

But by that same logic may I ask, why do you keep making so many mistakes when buying lottery tickets? Why dont you just buy winners?

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I don't actually buy lottery tickets ever I cannot even remember the last time I did. Like I said if I did lose I would understand it as the nature of the game but I would still be disappointed for at least a short period of time. I mean I love this team so I would feel odd saying that went great none of those 3 draft picks last 5 months, couldn't be happier.. .

FWIW, 26 players currently on the Pats' roster (including 2 suspended) were originally signed in the 6th or 7th round or as UDFAs: QB Tom Brady (6th), RB Brandon Bolden (UDFA), FB James Devlin (UDFA), TE Tim Wright (UDFA), WR Julian Edelman (7th), WR Danny Amendola (UDFA), WR Kenbrell Thompkins (UDFA), WR Brian Tyms (UDFA), OL Dan Connolly (UDFA), OL Ryan Wendell (UDFA), OL Jordan Devey (UDFA), OL Josh Kline (UDFA),OL Chris Barker (UDFA), DE Michael Buchanan (7th), DE Zach Moore (6th), DT Chris Jones (6th), DT Sealver Siliga (UDFA), DT Joe Vellano (UDFA), DT Kelcy Quarles (UDFA), DT Bruce Gaston (UDFA), DB Nate Ebner (6th), DB Alfonzo Dennard (7th), DB Brandon Browner (UDFA), DB Kyle Arrington (UDFA), DB Malcolm Butler (UDFA) and P Ryan Allen (UDFA). Guys originally drafted in the 5th round include DE Rob Ninkovich, OL Marcus Cannon, TE Michael Hoomanawanui and LB Darius Fleming.

Brady6 said:

That is what annoys me about the Halapio pick too because I wanted Exum as well. I would have went Exum, Garrett Scott, and Terence Fede instead of Halapio, Moore, and Thomas. I was happy with the Moore pick though he was a good selection I had him and Fede as the 2 late round DEs I liked.

I also would have taken Trey Burton over Gallon.

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I would have taken most of those guys without hesitation. But so what? You can cry over spilt milk, or you can keep churning the bottom end of the roster until you find some cream. It's important to admit mistakes and analyze what you thought you saw that wasn't there to try and avoid them in the future, but it's also important to realize that it's a crapshoot and you're never going to hit on all of your picks, and not get too caught up in retrospective analysis. There are some posters on this board who can give you lots of tips on the latter, if that's the path you want to take.

mayoclinic said:

I would have taken most of those guys without hesitation. But so what? You can cry over spilt milk, or you can keep churning the bottom end of the roster until you find some cream. It's important to admit mistakes and analyze what you thought you saw that wasn't there to try and avoid them in the future, but it's also important to realize that it's a crapshoot and you're never going to hit on all of your picks, and not get too caught up in retrospective analysis. There are some posters on this board who can give you lots of tips on the latter, if that's the path you want to take.

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I agree it is what it is and there is no way to change it. I was simply pointing out that the result was disappointing. I didn't expect it to turn into this much of a debate, I mean I didn't even blame Amendola for the failed picks when obviously it was his fault.

mayoclinic said:

FWIW, 26 players currently on the Pats' roster (including 2 suspended) were originally signed in the 6th or 7th round or as UDFAs: QB Tom Brady (6th), RB Brandon Bolden (UDFA), FB James Devlin (UDFA), TE Tim Wright (UDFA), WR Julian Edelman (7th), WR Danny Amendola (UDFA), WR Kenbrell Thompkins (UDFA), WR Brian Tyms (UDFA), OL Dan Connolly (UDFA), OL Ryan Wendell (UDFA), OL Jordan Devey (UDFA), OL Josh Kline (UDFA),OL Chris Barker (UDFA), DE Michael Buchanan (7th), DE Zach Moore (6th), DT Chris Jones (6th), DT Sealver Siliga (UDFA), DT Joe Vellano (UDFA), DT Kelcy Quarles (UDFA), DT Bruce Gaston (UDFA), DB Nate Ebner (6th), DB Alfonzo Dennard (7th), DB Brandon Browner (UDFA), DB Kyle Arrington (UDFA), DB Malcolm Butler (UDFA) and P Ryan Allen (UDFA). Guys originally drafted in the 5th round include DE Rob Ninkovich, OL Marcus Cannon, TE Michael Hoomanawanui and LB Darius Fleming.

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The Pats also have 9 rookies currently on the roster: Dominique Easley (1st), Jimmy Garoppolo (2nd), Brian Stork (4th), James White (4th), Cameron Fleming (4th), Zach Moore (6th), Malcolm Butler (UDFA), Kelcy Quarles (UDFA), and Bruce Gaston (UDFA). They currently have 13 2nd year players: Jamie Collins (2nd), Aaron Dobson (2nd), Logan Ryan (3rd), Duron Harmon (3rd), Chris Jones (6th), Michael Buchanan (7th), Kenbrell Thompkins (UDFA), Tim Wright (UDFA), Joe Vellano (UDFA), Jordan Devey (UDFA), Josh Kline (UDFA), Chris Barker (UDFA) and Ryan Allen (UDFA). That's 22 guys who are either 1st and 2nd year players. Add in 2012 players Chandler Jones (1st), Dont'a Hightower (1st), Tavon Wilson (2nd), Nate Ebner (6th), Alfonzo Dennard (7th) and Brandon Bolden (UDFA), and over half the team is in their 3rd year or less. How much younger do we want this team to be?

Brady6 said:

I was never making a huge deal of it, I said they were disappointing and then 9 posters decided to quote my post and tell me that I am not allowed to be disappointed, and telling me draft picks were not really draft picks, and 2 more players on the practice squad was not really 2 more players. I want a successful player with every pick we make, and if we do not get one it is a disappointment for me, I can understand mistakes or failure but I not going to just accept it and say it is no biggie.

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No one said you can't be disappointed, just that your feelings are disproportional to the actual likelihood of those guys making the team. And, yes, the fact that you got up in arms over my classifying them as little more than priority UDFAs absolutely demonstrates that you lack awareness of historic success rates for those selections.

Frankly, when you have several people, including two of the smartest members of this site in Patchick and Mayo, say pretty much the same thing, it is time to take a step back and ask yourself where you might be mistaken.

I'm being blunt, but this isn't meant to be insulting. None of us knows everything so drop the bravado, relax and enjoy learning about the game. Isn't sharing ideas and growing our understanding the entire point of this forum?

mayoclinic said:

Fair enough. I think most of us are disappointed when a pick doest pan out, regardless of how late it was made. Jon Halapio was picked right in front of one of my binkies (Antone Exum), and it hurts all the more because he flopped. But anytime you play the kind of game you describe there's an inherent understanding that the odds of success are low, and that you won't hit on every ticket; it's human to be disappointed, but unrealistic to expect success on each try. Moreover, the analogy certainly isn't exact: in this case we've also picked up "free" tickets such as Chris Jones, Sealver Siliga, Kenbrell Thompkins, Malcolm Butler, Kelcy Quarles, etc.

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If drafting was a perfect art then players would always be selected on the outcome of their careers before the fact. Drafting is a mountain of assessment then a best guess based on certain criteria.

mayoclinic said:

The Pats also have 9 rookies currently on the roster: Dominique Easley (1st), Jimmy Garoppolo (2nd), Brian Stork (4th), James White (4th), Cameron Fleming (4th), Zach Moore (6th), Malcolm Butler (UDFA), Kelcy Quarles (UDFA), and Bruce Gaston (UDFA). They currently have 13 2nd year players: Jamie Collins (2nd), Aaron Dobson (2nd), Logan Ryan (3rd), Duron Harmon (3rd), Chris Jones (6th), Michael Buchanan (7th), Kenbrell Thompkins (UDFA), Tim Wright (UDFA), Joe Vellano (UDFA), Jordan Devey (UDFA), Josh Kline (UDFA), Chris Barker (UDFA) and Ryan Allen (UDFA). That's 22 guys who are either 1st and 2nd year players. Add in 2012 players Chandler Jones (1st), Dont'a Hightower (1st), Tavon Wilson (2nd), Nate Ebner (6th), Alfonzo Dennard (7th) and Brandon Bolden (UDFA), and over half the team is in their 3rd year or less. How much younger do we want this team to be?

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{Insert slow clap gif of choice}

Oswlek said:

No one said you can't be disappointed, just that your feelings are disproportional to the actual likelihood of those guys making the team. And, yes, the fact that you got up in arms over my classifying them as little more than priority UDFAs absolutely demonstrates that you lack awareness of historic success rates for those selections.

Frankly, when you have several people, including two of the smartest members of this site in Patchick and Mayo, say pretty much the same thing, it is time to take a step back and ask yourself where you might be mistaken.

I'm being blunt, but this isn't meant to be insulting. None of us knows everything so drop the bravado, relax and enjoy learning about the game. Isn't sharing ideas and growing our understanding the entire point of this forum?

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I think very highly of Mayo and PC, so I agree, and for the record, I hold your opinion in high regard as well even if it does not appear so with this interaction. My initial post was a fly by comment, that it is disappointing that those 3 players could not even earn practice squad spots; the reaction was somewhat surprising you would have thought I opened a thread centered on it. In addition, my message has been consistent since May that I thought Halapio in particular was a poor choice; he lacked the athleticism and foot speed to do the things we expect of our OL, so seeing that actually be the outcome is frustrating because I feel a better decision could have been made at the time and expressed it. At which time I received a similar response as I have received here, except I was being told that it was a good selection, etc.

When I look at the team I see Barker on the roster, and I think Halapio could not beat him out, really, or I see us placing a waiver claim for Don Jones a few days after cutting Thomas. Which is why my only issue with your argument and a few others is that we have this stacked team and do not have a need for these players, because we apparently do based and have to go a different direction.

Overall though, I do not want to beat the dead horse, as I said it was a fly by comment, never intended to become 4 pages worth of posts, it was more like I spilt have my Starbucks coffee getting out of the car this morning, that really sucked and I was disappointed. It was not a we need to fire the GM and change our entire draft philosophy..

There's a finite number of spots available on the roster and on the PS. You'll always have guys who don't make it, which means if you're so inclined you can always say "man, the Pats really failed at drafting/signing UDFAs/waiver wire claims/free agency", because the guys who don't make the cut will have arrived here through one of those channels. But without context the whole sentiment is meaningless. If Halapio doesn't make it because an UDFA that was groomed on the PS for a year is better than him, is that a failure of drafting or a success of signing UDFAs and practice squad management? How an individual chooses to view that says a bit about their agenda, IMO.

All that should really matter is that you're creating competition and ensuring that the guys who get those precious few spots are really earning them. Specifically, the context needed here is: are there good players at the bottom of the roster and on the PS, who have a shot at contributing? As long as the answer to that is yes, who cares about the guys who weren't good enough to make it? Late round picks, waiver wire claims and UDFAs are flyers, no point in being upset when it turns out that every team in the league passed on them a bunch of times for good reason. If you can turn 5-10 of those picks into one good player, that's a win, and the Pats do it about as well as anyone.

BelichickFan said:

No it's not.

First it was just an unnamed source.
Second it said they hoped to get him not that there was an offer.
Third they may have only wanted one WR and didn't expect to get Boyce.
Fourth the LS may be temporarily taking the spot that he'll go to.
Fifth just because you think if you say the sky is green then it is doesn't make it so.

There's not nearly enough "out there" to be saying definitely that he turned a PS spot down.

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You're arguing against simple, basic logic, as well as the wording of my post.

1.) You wanted reports, and you got them. *****ing because the source is unnamed is just stupid.

2.) Your "second and third would fall under the "change of heart" portion of my post.

3.) To say you're reaching with your fourth would be putting it way too kindly.

4.) My logic was sound. Yours is terrible.

Deus Irae said:

3.) To say you're reaching with your fourth would be putting it way too kindly.

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I don't think many people expect a LS on the PS for very long.

Oh well, you are what you are.