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Logan Mankins Traded


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I see there is a lot of debate about Wright's value to the team, so here's my two cents.

The "move tight end" or, in other words, the big wide receiver who doesn't block and typically lines up on the inside but can be flexed out (or even occasionally put in the backfield), has become almost a regular position in the NFL. Almost all of the good offenses in the last five years have had someone at this position who makes a big impact.

Patriots- Aaron Hernandez
Saints- Jimmy Graham
Packers- Jermichael Finley
Broncos- Julius Thomas
49ers- Vernon Davis

These guys cause a big problem, as we've seen with Hernandez and Thomas first hand, since they require a defense has a freak Jamie Collins-type or a big defensive back (think Talib on Graham) to shut them down. Of course, it often requires the defense's best player to move to cover the move tight end, leaving someone else to handle the outside receivers.

Particularly with the Patriots history of the two TE offense, I think it's critical that they have someone who is a threat in that position. If Gronkowski is injured, we saw that Hernandez did a good job picking up the slack, even though he was not a blocker, the offense was still breaking records. When Gronkowski is on the field along with the TE2, the offense is running at full strength, and we've seen how unstoppable they can be.

I am guessing that Belichick brought in Brandon LaFell as a guy who could fill-in as the move tight end from time to time, but I think that Wright fits the mold better and provides depth to a position that is overlooked, as some think he is a "backup tight end" when in fact his role in the offense is critical. In addition, there are very few real "move tight ends" in the NFL that can really play the position well, which is why we've seen teams try to convert basketball players like Graham and Thomas. Basically, it is someone who is in between a WR and TE but who can handle the physicality of playing inside. Wright was a WR in college.

I don't think that he is that similar to Hernandez in the sense that he isn't as shifty or fast, so I'm not expecting miracles, but he is far better than LaFell at that position. Just because he doesn't have the talent of Hernandez doesn't mean he won't be very successful in this offense. Hernandez was more explosive, but Wright is 6'4", whereas Hernandez was 6'1". He will be difficult to cover in other ways.

Hernandez and Wright had roughly the same amount of catches, yards, and TDs in their rookie years. Hernandez had Brady, whereas Wright played in one of the worst offenses in the NFL.

Belichick likely got the inside info on Wright through Schiano.

I like this acquisition. I predict he will have a much more important role in the offense that people are forecasting.

Just a quibble. I agree that Hernandez was shiftier than Wright, but I don't think he's faster. If you watch that highlight video, Wright seems damned fast for a TE.
 
This jibber jabber continues on talk radio, so much so have to switch the channel.. the underlying argument seems to be that in his waning years BB wants to weaken the protection for Brady.. but they keep saying he allowed 11 sacks on Brady last year. Classic doublespeak...

They keep referring how BB let Welker walk, while in reality the Pats offered him more money at least twice, and his agent advised him to walk away, but they never mention that.. then they revert to Randy Moss or something else.

The underlying implication is that BB is doing this to make this team weaker... I think sometimes they should be forced to listen to themselves in some sort of "Clockwork Orange" aversion therapy sequence.

It's a goddamn continuous mensa meeting on this forum compared to talk radio.
 
This jibber jabber continues on talk radio, so much so have to switch the channel.. the underlying argument seems to be that in his waning years BB wants to weaken the protection for Brady.. but they keep saying he allowed 11 sacks on Brady last year. Classic doublespeak...

They keep referring how BB let Welker walk, while in reality the Pats offered him more money at least twice, and his agent advised him to walk away, but they never mention that.. then they revert to Randy Moss or something else.

The underlying implication is that BB is doing this to make this team weaker... I think sometimes they should be forced to listen to themselves in some sort of "Clockwork Orange" aversion therapy sequence.

These are the same clowns who on Monday we're crying about how Brady's 'window was closing' and why, oh why won't Bill get him 'MOAR WEAPONZ!!!'

So Bill get's Tom another weapon and their crying about that. Because of course you never have to give up anything to get something in the NFL, amirite?
 
A few comments on the comments of the last few pages.

1. I think it was Nunchucks who made a very insight comment (BTW an insightful comment is often equal to one I agree with. ;) ) He stated that the Pats didn't NEED a move TE, they LACKED one. I think this is an important distinction and one that should temper the expectations of fans about Tim Wright.

2. I see Wright as being a player who now creates more formation flexibility for Josh, and several more options for him down on the GL. But that's all. I have few expectations for him over the next month or so. For me, I'd be happy with 30 catches THIS year as long as 5 of those are for TD's

3. My biggest fear is having to deal with the mediots who will all be on "I told you so mode" the first time Brady is sacked, and every time he's sacked. They will instantly forget that Brady was sacked 40 times last season, and Mankins was supposedly responsible for about a quarter of them.

4. The opportunity to get a developmental move TE who has the kind of potential and proven production on the cheap for the next 3 season, combined with the elimination of big cap number from a player wasn't play up to it. (BTW- in fairness its almost impossible for a player to play up to the cap numbers some of these back end loaded contracts create) And I would hope the development of Devey, Kline, and the 3 draft picks were also part of that equation.

5. So here are my predictions (hopes) for this season. Mankins will have another solid year for the Bucs, and they will be very happy with him. Wright will catch at least 30 passes and have 5 TD. And most importantly, Brady will be sacked less than 30 times this season.

6. Like all the trades of this kind, it carries a certain level of risk and reward along with a ton of emotional baggage and regret. It should be clear to one and all that THIS day was coming for Logan Mankins because of a combination of his cap number, his unwillingness to restructure, and the fact he was no longer playing at an elite level. What is surprising is that it happened this soon and this suddenly at the end of TC.

I look forward to revisiting this this thread in the dog days of the next off season to see how it all turns out.
 
BTW- in fairness its almost impossible for a player to play up to the cap numbers some of these back end loaded contracts create

Ken, I agree with most of your post, but I don't think that Mankins' 2011 contract was particularly back-loaded. The first 2 years had a discounted base salary, but that's pretty standard, and he received a lavish signing bonus, so he had plenty of cash in the bank. The signing bonus was amortized over multiple years, as is common, but that's a cap accounting issue and doesn't affect Mankins' bottom line. The real money started kicking in last year (when Mankins was 31), and wasn't guaranteed - base salaries of $5.75, $6.25M, $6.75M and $6.75M for the last 4 years of the deal, plus $250K roster bonuses for each year). It was fairly predictable in 2011 that the odds of Mankins playing out the full duration of his contract was extremely low.

Mankins played 3 years for the Pats under his 2011 deal, and collected over $30M in signing bonus, base salary, and workout bonuses. Nothing to cry about, certainly. If his level of play remains sufficiently high that he earns the remainder of his contract, more power to him.
 
Hi I just read all 47 pages of this thread front to back and I have just one question: Was Logan Mankins traded?
 
This jibber jabber continues on talk radio, so much so have to switch the channel.. the underlying argument seems to be that in his waning years BB wants to weaken the protection for Brady.. but they keep saying he allowed 11 sacks on Brady last year. Classic doublespeak...

They keep referring how BB let Welker walk, while in reality the Pats offered him more money at least twice, and his agent advised him to walk away, but they never mention that.. then they revert to Randy Moss or something else.

The underlying implication is that BB is doing this to make this team weaker... I think sometimes they should be forced to listen to themselves in some sort of "Clockwork Orange" aversion therapy sequence.

Now the spin is the Pats would have rather had Talib on the Denver contract than Revis at all. This spinning is getting out of control.

I am tired of people pointing to Mankins trade as proof that Belichick is sacrificing the present for the future. How do we know that Belichick doesn't see Wright ad a guy who can make a significant immediate impact with the team and build on an excellent rookie season? Whether he is right or wrong, maybe he truly believes that Wright can be more valuable to this team this year. Maybe he sees Wright as a guy who can make a significant impact on this team NOW and in the future.

Obviously if the Pats have four or five legitimate receiving options on the field at a time, it makes a guard less necessary because the Pats will only see three and four man rushes mostly. When Hooman was on the field last year, opposing teams were not dropping extra guys into coverage to account for him.

I still don't get why the addition of Wright couldn't make a significant impact on the team this year. I am not expecting a Hernandez second year. But even if he gets 25-30 catches and 300-400 yards and 3-4 TDs, that would represent a major upgrade to the position was it is constituted this time last week and last year.
 
I still don't get why the addition of Wright couldn't make a significant impact on the team this year. I am not expecting a Hernandez second year. But even if he gets 25-30 catches and 300-400 yards and 3-4 TDs, that would represent a major upgrade to the position was it is constituted this time last week and last year.

I think that Wright's presence in the red zone alone will have a significant impact this year. Yards and catches are of secondary importance.
 
Well, there's one person to whom it wasn't clear, apparently -- and he's more important than any member of this forum.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2014/08/report_tom_brady_very_upset_wi.html

This is the most overblown story. Brady just lost a friend from the team. Is he upset that he feels it was a bad move or yet another one of his friends were let go. And let's not forget that was his initial reaction because he was told in practice. When he digests the situation, he may feel differently.
 
Wright's not being brought in to block in the trenches. He's a pass catcher. He will have to do some downfield blocking, but Hooman and Gronk will handle the road grading workload. Wright is the same size as Jacob Tamme, and will have a similar role.

My Pats picker is all screwed up now. Keeping three TEs? Three QBs? No Mankins? So many decisions to make, so little time.

So you are not considering him a TE but more of a WR or Hback?

By the way Tamme is 6'3 236. Wright is 6'3 220 with people saying they think thats wrong, so I'm not sure we can be sure he is the same size as Tamme.
 
I didn't see this Grantland article posted; it's a pretty interesting take:

The Genius and Stupidity of Bill Belichick

I don't know how interesting it is. It's the usual take -- not anything new.

I will say this -- Belichick obviously believes (and I agree with him) that the best way to win titles is to get to the tournament as often as you can and that the playoffs are fluky enough that going "all in" is (1) no guarantee and (2) will make it lots harder to win afterwards.
 
It says in the other thread he is actually 235, which is pretty close to 236.
 
Losing Mankins really screwed up my o-line in Madden. So many more sacks now.

Hopefully it's much different in real life.
 
in sort of related news, apparantly Tim Wright is going to wear #81 with the patriots...kind of funny considering the last move TE who wore #81
 
Did Brady tell these people that he was upset? I have not heard one word from him. I don't trust the media. PERIOD. I don't care how good people say
their credentials are. These selfish bastards only care about reporting a story they don't give a damn about the truth. Until I hear Brady confirm these reports, it is all BS to me.
 
Just a quibble. I agree that Hernandez was shiftier than Wright, but I don't think he's faster. If you watch that highlight video, Wright seems damned fast for a TE.

I think I see straight line speed in Wright's game but I don't see quickness, if that makes sense. In those balls Wright caught in the middle of the field the LBs were able to hang with him, but Wright's length helps the QB put it in a place only Wright can get it.Hernandez really had pretty special change of direction skills.
 
Huh?!? Your argument that the offense is definitely worse this year because of this trade. If you weren't sure what we are getting you wouldn't be arguing that.

I am actually arguing what you claim to be arguing even if I am optimistic about Wright.

I think my stance that we are a better team with Mankins this year has been pretty clear.
 
I think my stance that we are a better team with Mankins this year has been pretty clear.

And then you are not arguing anything except that Wright won't do much of anything and being anything but objective. The guy had arguably a better rookie season than either Gronk or Hernandez (although Gronk did have a lot more TDs) yet you think there is no way he could upgrade the offense even with the loss of Mankins.

But that is the type of rational objectivity I would expect from you after all those years of you objectively predicting doom for this team. :rolleyes:
 
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