Logan Mankins Traded

It's hard to sort out the range of opinions on the board, but there a couple themes I'd address. We have a large group of people noting that Mankins has declined in recent years, particularly in pass protection. We also have a large group of people noting that Mankins is the best interior lineman on the team and that the GOAT needs better protection more than he needs additional weapons. Both are correct. However, I'd note that there is a much larger drop-off between Mankins and his replacement when it comes to run blocking than pass blocking. Mankins is a road grader whose toughness makes the running game go, but he gets beat by inside pressure almost as much as anyone. The pass protection probably won't suffer that much with this move. (It's not like Mankins plays Center.) Of course, if 3rd and 3s become 3rd a 6s, that doesn't help Brady either.

It's not a news flash that this is a value proposition to Belichick and Kraft. Can the ~$12.5M saved on Mankins this year and next be better invested in the team? If you give that money to Revis as part of a long-term deal, maybe replacing Arrington in the process, saving another $3M next year. Let's say that we can sign Revis for several years at $14M per year. With that, you trade Mankins and Arrington for Revis, Wright, and a 4th round player. (Wright and the 4th rounder probably cost $1.2M/year combined.) That sounds like a bargain to me. Of course, there's no guarantee that we resign Revis for that price, but it's a reasonable approach to value assessment.

Marinlik said:

Sure. If we had taken someone like xavier su'a filo in the first round then I would agree with you. But we didn't. We don't really have anything behind Mankins. I wouldn't be surprised if we part with Brady before Garappollos contract is up if he looks good and Brady looks to be declining. But if all we had behind Brady was some UDFA or some just drafted late rounds pick that haven't really stood out yet then I would be suprised and shocked by his release.

I know the Pats have a habit of doing stuff like this. But you are seriously not the least bit surprised that we cut our, by a good margin, best player at a position that most consider the position of biggest weakness?

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Are you trolling with the Brady comparison? You can't compare replacing Brady to Mankins. The drop-off from Brady (or Revis) to the next player is huge. The drop-off from Mankins to Devey is large, but if the trade-off that you compare it against is Revis to Arrington, it makes sense. Of course, I want to win it all this year, so I am always put-off by these sorts of decisions, but it's not like I would cut Bill any extra slack next year if we couldn't retain the players that are going to make the 2014 defense go. It will be interesting next year, when the team has to decide whether to commit to Wilfork for two more years at $6.6M or try to sign a FA DT at a smaller number. Solid DTs aren't cheap, and Wilfork looks to my eye like he is ready to make a case that he is more like Brady and Revis than like Mankins.

DaBruinz said:

Shmessy - sometimes you should just not post if you are going to make such idiotic exaggerations and try and put words in people's mouths. It only makes you look foolish and you should know better than do try that with me.

I said that Wright wasn't covered heavily. And he wasn't. He saw one on one action 90% of the time. Could you please show me where I said no one else was covered? Nope.. you can't do that because I never did. Teams can't double cover 2 guys with man to man without leaving someone open. And even a rookie QB like Glennon could find the open guy.

Let's actually look at Wright's BEST games:
Seattle- 4 receptions for 58 yards and 1 TD.
San Fran - 7 receptions for 82 yards - 1 TD
Arizona - 5 receptions - 41 yards
New Orleans - 5 receptions for 58 yards.

Is Wright an upgrade over Hooman and the other dregs? Yep. But, guess what. I never made any comments on how good/bad Wright was. I just pointed out that there wasn't exactly a plethora of talent that he had to beat in Tampa last year so any enthusiasm should be tempered..

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You evidently don't understand a thing from my post. If there was no one else other than VJack for a defense to worry about, then they could very easily concentrate heavy coverage on Wright also. I never wrote "no one else was covered".

If an offense (like....I dunno....the Patriots???) presents an opposing defense 4 or 5 weapons to worry about, then perhaps a UDFA Rook like Wright could slide under the radar and benefit from less coverage. He did not have that advantage in Tampa Bay. The differences between the coverages he will face here and that when he was in Tampa Bay are vast.

If you want to compare the ability of a Mike Glennon in going through 3-4 reads on a given play to that of Tom Brady, I'd love to hear it.

That being said, because of the timing of this trade, he comes here in the last week of TC without knowing the system. My expectations for him in 2014 are not very high. Best to hope for is he adds another tall body who can help in the Red Zone, and hopefully by December, can be more integrated into the route tree.

Simple points. However, you have a well-known tendency to get unnecessarily riled and upset on this forum. That's OK and I understand that it takes all kinds. No need to bust an artery over this point.

pencilneckgeek said:

It's hard to sort out the range of opinions on the board, but there a couple themes I'd address. We have a large group of people noting that Mankins has declined in recent years, particularly in pass protection. We also have a large group of people noting that Mankins is the best interior lineman on the team and that the GOAT needs better protection more than he needs additional weapons. Both are correct. However, I'd note that there is a much larger drop-off between Mankins and his replacement when it comes to run blocking than pass blocking. Mankins is a road grader whose toughness makes the running game go, but he gets beat by inside pressure almost as much as anyone. The pass protection probably won't suffer that much with this move. (It's not like Mankins plays Center.) Of course, if 3rd and 3s become 3rd a 6s, that doesn't help Brady either.

It's not a news flash that this is a value proposition to Belichick and Kraft. Can the ~$12.5M saved on Mankins this year and next be better invested in the team? If you give that money to Revis as part of a long-term deal, maybe replacing Arrington in the process, saving another $3M next year. Let's say that we can sign Revis for several years at $14M per year. With that, you trade Mankins and Arrington for Revis, Wright, and a 4th round player. (Wright and the 4th rounder probably cost $1.2M/year combined.) That sounds like a bargain to me. Of course, there's no guarantee that we resign Revis for that price, but it's a reasonable approach to value assessment.



Are you trolling with the Brady comparison? You can't compare replacing Brady to Mankins. The drop-off from Brady (or Revis) to the next player is huge. The drop-off from Mankins to Devey is large, but if the trade-off that you compare it against is Revis to Arrington, it makes sense. Of course, I want to win it all this year, so I am always put-off by these sorts of decisions, but it's not like I would cut Bill any extra slack next year if we couldn't retain the players that are going to make the 2014 defense go. It will be interesting next year, when the team has to decide whether to commit to Wilfork for two more years at $6.6M or try to sign a FA DT at a smaller number. Solid DTs aren't cheap, and Wilfork looks to my eye like he is ready to make a case that he is more like Brady and Revis than like Mankins.

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No I'm not trolling. I quoted someone who originally started a thread on how no one should be surprised about these cuts or even if Brady gets released a year early rather than a year late. What I gave was a situation where I could see that happens. Why I wouldn't be as surprised if we released Brady(in 3-4 years) if Garappollo looks very good and we want to roll with him for the future while Brady is starting to decline. If you read what I wrote, rather than just freak out because it's Brady, you would probably have seen the point. But the difference here as that we don't really have that future player to move on to. So of course it's a bit more surprising when we release our best player at a position without someone that is a clear replacement. It's not like we have our next very good guard waiting in line(not from what I've seen).

I'd be extremely surprised if we decided to move on from Brady without a clear choice on who to replace him with, like with Mankins. But I'd be less surprised I if we had a clear replacement in line(think Favre to A.Rodgers without the retirement thingies).

Constants in life:

Death - Taxes - Belichick starting a forum pissing contest during pre season.

Don't fall in love with the Veterans... as much as I like Mankins his salary was a tad high, and if the money is spread elsewhere it may make more sense..

Apparently Dave Gugliemi(sp) saw enough in the young'uns to warrant this move.. no judgement yet, as we will see how this works out in about the 8th game...

strngplyr said:

I still think the OL will be:

Solder - Kline/Devey (whoever wins) - Connolly - Cannon - Vollmer

The only weak spot should be at LG, with C/RG improved. In theory, anyways.

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Whats up with Stork? Anyone know? I thought I heard his injury wasn't that bad, he may help inside.

Just a note on the trade returns.

Many people thought Mallet and a 3rd or 4th would be fair for Andre Johnson.

Marinlik said:

No I'm not trolling. I quoted someone who originally started a thread on how no one should be surprised about these cuts or even if Brady gets released a year early rather than a year late. What I gave was a situation where I could see that happens. Why I wouldn't be as surprised if we released Brady(in 3-4 years) if Garappollo looks very good and we want to roll with him for the future while Brady is starting to decline. If you read what I wrote, rather than just freak out because it's Brady, you would probably have seen the point. But the difference here as that we don't really have that future player to move on to. So of course it's a bit more surprising when we release our best player at a position without someone that is a clear replacement. It's not like we have our next very good guard waiting in line(not from what I've seen).

I'd be extremely surprised if we decided to move on from Brady without a clear choice on who to replace him with, like with Mankins. But I'd be less surprised I if we had a clear replacement in line(think Favre to A.Rodgers without the retirement thingies).

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Yeah, I'm not exactly freaking out about Brady. I do that during games when he is less than perfect. Apologies for thinking you might be trolling. After reading 20 pages, I thought it was you who had originally raised the point, so I was responding to both points in your name. (Apologies for that, especially, as the original point was a blatantly false equivalency, and I shouldn't ascribe such silly ideas to undeserving folk willy-nilly.) Anywho, Brady's $7-9M per year over the next three years will be a bargain even allowing for a fair amount of physical decline that shows no signs of starting. I doubt Grappa will get much consideration in that time unless Brady gets injured, in which case it's a different set of circumstance than Mankins. It's hard to get better than the GOAT, if you aren't getting the reps to hone your craft. It's not like Grappa just needs to beat out a pedestrian pro bowler like Bledsoe or Flacco.

The Scrizz said:

Just a note on the trade returns.

Many people thought Mallet and a 3rd or 4th would be fair for Andre Johnson.

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In other news, I hear rumors that we might trade Brady for Andre Johnson and JJ Watt.

The more I read information about the trade the more I am OK with how things have worked out. It's another example of BB assigning value to a position and once the value or level of play is not commensurate to expectation, the Patriots pull the trigger and move on.

As a sum whole, I think this trade could/should be beneficial to both parties. The Patriots clear cap space, add a young, athletic player on a team friendly contract in a position of need with the added bonus of a mid round draft pick (let's be honest guys, given Mankins' age and contract, a mid round pick as as good as we're going to get) whereas the Bucs add a proven, former All Pro and Pro Bowl LG in an area of significant need. Hell, I won't even address the cleared cap space to help retain our own soon to be extended players. If this means the Patriots retain McCourty and Revis, then thank you for your services Logan but the move is a necessity.

The Patriots obviously feel comfortable that the team has replacements at the LG/RG positions who can step in and provide a similar level of performance to Mankins/the incumbent RG at a significantly reduced rate. It's a move from the Bill Belichick book of economics. What it also means is the team may be able to keep one of its speculative/developmental Linemen rather than cutting them and running the waiver gauntlet. Teams raid cuts. We know this.

Since Hernandez went loco, people on this board have been screaming for the Patriots to do something about the Tight End depth, specifically replacing Hernandez's H-Back role. We sat and waited patiently through Free Agency and the Draft only to see speculative picks, JAGS or veterans coming back from significant injuries. The board nearly imploded with a scheme that necessitated a depth chart consisting of Gronk and Hooman. Not one person would rest easy in the notion that this would be the team's Tight End roster for 2014. Now, BB has shown he's one step ahead of everyone by adding an athletic, young Tight End to potential fill the vacated H-Back role.

In a strange comment, it's worth noting that Wright was the 14th highest scoring Tight End in Fantasy Football in 2013 scoring nearly 90 points on 14 games, catching passes from Mike Glennon in a dysfunctional team who predominantly threw the rock to Vincent Jackson. If Wright shows any aptitude for the game, he can be coached up, will be the #2 behind Gronkowski and I expect, can become a significant weapon in the second half of the season. The 2 Tight-End set could be back on the cards.

Now, Tampa Bay could be dangerous if they add Richie Incognito. Most roster moves are made with the idea that an improvement is an improvement. Lovie Smith is useless as a coach of offense but the guy sure as hell knows defense. The Bucs D is loaded. I fully expect the Bucs D to be a re-imagining of his Bears Ds. They have the cattle for the job. On O, they have a a great collection of skill players, varying skill sets and a reasonable game manager QB. What they don't have are quality guards. For the Bucs, Mankins is a step in the right direction. If they can add Incognito, it's not unreasonable to think they can compete for the NFC South division title given their strength matches up well against their opponents' strengths.

Frankly, whilst appearing to be a shocking face-value trade, this could and should be a win-win trade for both the Patriots and the Bucs. I'm excited by the move because BB just lit a fire under the rest of the team which says, perform or you're gone. Money can't buy that.

shmessy said:

You evidently don't understand a thing from my post. If there was no one else other than VJack for a defense to worry about, then they could very easily concentrate heavy coverage on Wright also. I never wrote "no one else was covered".

If an offense (like....I dunno....the Patriots???) presents an opposing defense 4 or 5 weapons to worry about, then perhaps a UDFA Rook like Wright could slide under the radar and benefit from less coverage. He did not have that advantage in Tampa Bay. The differences between the coverages he will face here and that when he was in Tampa Bay are vast.

If you want to compare the ability of a Mike Glennon in going through 3-4 reads on a given play to that of Tom Brady, I'd love to hear it.

That being said, because of the timing of this trade, he comes here in the last week of TC without knowing the system. My expectations for him in 2014 are not very high. Best to hope for is he adds another tall body who can help in the Red Zone, and hopefully by December, can be more integrated into the route tree.

Simple points. However, you have a well-known tendency to get unnecessarily riled and upset on this forum. That's OK and I understand that it takes all kinds. No need to bust an artery over this point.

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Shmessy - What was there to understand? It was exaggerative idiocy. Which was the only thing you could resort to since you couldn't prove a point.

My original statement was "He caught more passes because they didn't have anyone else other than Vincent Jackson and Tim Wright to pass the ball to." I stand by that. You are the one who came out with the garbage about 2 CBs/2 safeties being on VJack. Something I never said nor implied. And, you clearly don't know squat about defenses if you think that they don't worry about every potential receiver to some extent. Who they put on each one is a different story.

No one is "busting an artery", getting riled or upset. What is going on is you talking out your arse. Plain and simple. And that is something you have a tendency of doing. Particularly when it comes to some of the smarter posters on here when you disagree with them.

Also, the Mankins holdout was because the Pats didn't want to pay so much money for a guard. That was at the peak of his prime and at the beginning of the contract when the cap hit was less. Now he's past his prime and at the end of the contract.

I was surprised when I heard about the trade, now I'm not so surprised at the trade itself.

DarrylS said:

Don't fall in love with the Veterans... as much as I like Mankins his salary was a tad high, and if the money is spread elsewhere it may make more sense...

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It reminds me of Economics 101, with the free market always finding the magical "marginal cost = marginal revenue" price point.

BB always calculates the cost/value ratio and when it gets above 1.0, watch out.

Belichickonomics.

At first I was pretty shocked and my initial reaction was NOOOOOOOOO. But after a few hours, I'm okay with it. But I think I can speak for everyone here when I say I'll miss his tenacity. He always had great passion on the field and gave our OL some sort of edginess to it. I'll definitely miss the attitude he brought on Sundays.

So I've had time now to read through most of the thread now and I have determined that the worst thing to come from this trade is 25 posts about soccer.

Get another thread people!

Seanzayyy said:

At first I was pretty shocked and my initial reaction was NOOOOOOOOO. But after a few hours, I'm okay with it. But I think I can speak for everyone here when I say I'll miss his tenacity. He always had great passion on the field and gave our OL some sort of edginess to it. I'll definitely miss the attitude he brought on Sundays.

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Hell of a player. Hopefully the line doesn't feel this. My fingers are crossed, but I'm nervous.

DaBruinz said:

Shmessy - What was there to understand? It was exaggerative idiocy. Which was the only thing you could resort to since you couldn't prove a point.

My original statement was "He caught more passes because they didn't have anyone else other than Vincent Jackson and Tim Wright to pass the ball to." I stand by that. You are the one who came out with the garbage about 2 CBs/2 safeties being on VJack. Something I never said nor implied. And, you clearly don't know squat about defenses if you think that they don't worry about every potential receiver to some extent. Who they put on each one is a different story.

No one is "busting an artery", getting riled or upset. What is going on is you talking out your arse. Plain and simple. And that is something you have a tendency of doing. Particularly when it comes to some of the smarter posters on here when you disagree with them.

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I'm going to walk away from you on this.



.

The Scrizz said:

Just a note on the trade returns.

Many people thought Mallet and a 3rd or 4th would be fair for Andre Johnson.

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This...

BB is the master of dealing players and parlaying what he got for someone else he was thinking about getting...it will happen but on who will that 4th be spent...?...

BTW has it occurred to no one else that this move probably indicates Mallet is done here?

We are probably carrying

TE 3 WR 6 (counting Slater) OL 9 RB/FB 5. That is 23. Only room for 2 QBs unless we carry another guy on O or make a surprise cut to either WR or RB (I doubt we only go Ridley Vereen White Develin).

Cant say I am sad he is gone. Ever since the way he handled negotiations for his contract he has been low on my list of favorite Patriots. Comparing his salary , his play has been average at best. Not a difference maker in my book.
Welcome Tim Wright, more options for Brady= less time the line has to hold.