PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

PFF called out by Vikings Coach (same group that called Brady "not elite")


Status
Not open for further replies.
As for this, I have no idea why some of you critics don't set up in competition. The market is there and you all think it easy to accomplish. Do it and make yourself some money. Personally I have a lot of admiration for people that identify a market, take the necessary risks and earn a good living from it.
I think you're completely misrepresenting my argument. Their idea was brilliant. Their marketing of the idea was brilliant. The risk involved was immense.

None of that means the final product is worthwhile. Perhaps the most impressive part of what they've done is convincing so many people that their product is worthwhile.
 
I thought it was odd that an NFL coach would go out of his way to shoot down some statistical site. Obviously something struck a nerve.

I've been calling out these hacks for years. They are amateurs masquerading as experts. It's a rather annoying thing. I mean, their head scout was/is an IT professional. He has no experience in football. The notion that a fan could up and become a scout overnight is a disservice to how complicated the game of football is.
 
The site itself used to admit to a 20% error rate, which itself was an incorrectly low estimate. Right here you have a coach telling you the same thing many of us have been telling you. You can call it opinion all you want. The FACT is that the site's lousy with its analysis, as has been demonstrated time and again.



How much time you waste is completely irrelevant to my posts, and it's something I don't give a damn about. You're welcome to waste your time however you wish. Your childish responses also don't miraculously make my posts trolling, though.

Sorry, but your butthurt over people bagging on that crap site is nothing more than that. You should be aiming that butthurt at the site. If you want, feel free to do it in a "positive" manner, by convincing the owner to do things better.


Well I think I'll stop wasting my time by reading your posts. Good day.
 
I think you're completely misrepresenting my argument. Their idea was brilliant. Their marketing of the idea was brilliant. The risk involved was immense.

None of that means the final product is worthwhile. Perhaps the most impressive part of what they've done is convincing so many people that their product is worthwhile.

What can I say. We differ on what their worth is. As I said, that's fair enough.
 
As for this, I have no idea why some of you critics don't set up in competition. The market is there and you all think it easy to accomplish. Do it and make yourself some money. Personally I have a lot of admiration for people that identify a market, take the necessary risks and earn a good living from it.

I'll give them credit for identifying the market. There was a huge gap between NFL scouting and football analysis presented to fans. They have filled this gap. Unfortunately, they have filled it with pure crap. Lipstick on a pig.

And I'm not a fan of the suggestion that we must endeavor on the same business as them just to have the right to criticize them. There's a lot of products in this world that are pretty crappy, and pretty successful, and I should be able to have a problem with them without changing careers. I am most certain I can cook a better burger than McDonald's, but I don't feel like I have to get into the fast-food business to assert that or complain about the quality of their meat. At the same time, I have no interest in becoming a semi-amateur scout, but I am perfectly capable of realizing that a lot PFF's analysis is terrible.
 
No, you ar
Am I the only one who's never visited their website? I've seen them mentioned plenty and know what they do but I've never looked at the site.

Is this the same site that last year for ESPN The Magazine said the Pats would win 1 game on the road (week 1 @ BUF) and lose the AFCE to MIA? And they somehow gave probability of all this happening.
No, you are not. I dont go to the TMZ football media either. Purely from the negativity from posters here. They wont get my hit. The articles mentioned about Brady are enough to keep me away
 
The ESPN magazine thing was probably Nate Silver, who bases his probabilities off a simulation model using an amalgamation of predictions and power rankings (just like he bases his political models off an amalgamation of polling data).
 
While the analysis (like any) needs to be taken with a grain of salt, PFF is at the very least an entertaining read. The more time I spend on patsfans, the more convinced I am many fans of football are in it less for entertainment and more because they have nothing else to live for, though.
 
The problem with getting deep into individual football statistics (which is what PFF is all about), is that football is the ultimate team-oriented game, which in turn makes individual statistics less meaningful and relevant than they are in other sports. For example it is not like baseball, which is for the most part one-on-one competition, pitcher versus batter. With the evolution of the internet and computers, more and more statistics are readily available compared to past generation, and current sport fans crave those stats - as do the talking heads and written media types for their professions. After all the new stats that became available and used in baseball that were not around thirty years ago, sports fans wanted the same thing for football.

Blend in the fact that the NFL has by far become the nation's most popular sport, and you had the perfect storm for a stat-driven site such as PFF to not only become popular, to be given a free pass by far too many to question the validity of their data. PFF not only took advantage of this opportunity, but also marketed themselves very well.

One way they did this when they were new was to market mainstream sports writers and give them free subscriptions to the content others had to pay for. Writers were sold on the idea that they had exclusive information, giving them a leg up on their competition, which would in turn boost readership, ratings and ad revenue. This in turn gave PFF the exposure that they wanted to a mass audience, and also created demand from those consumers that wanted access to that same content, and would be willing to pay for it.

I have no problem at all for using the site for snap counts and similar information, but to be fair, there are other sites that do offer that same information. The reality is that the people that compile the stats are not professional scouts or coaches, and they don't know what the play call or assignments were. On top of that, they don't even use the available all-22 video to make their determinations; their priority is to get those latest stats out quickly, rather than waiting to make their assessments after the all-22 game tape is available.


Exhibit A: A quarterback throws an incomplete pass, missing his receiver by 6-7 yards. Immediately PFF diagnoses the blame as being solely on the QB, without ever considering any other possibility (e.g., the receiver ran a bad route and was in the incorrect spot).

Whether that is due to lack of training (never having worked as a coach or scout at any level), laziness, marketing (a desire to avoid pointing out a potential error in their stats, which would discredit their 'research'), the bottom line is that the data is corrupt - and therefore if not worthless, at minimum very suspect.


Exhibit B: Many of their stats rely far too much on information that they can not possibly know from watching a televised game, and others are simply too subjective. For example: quarterbacks are rated on throwing under pressure, but conversely quarterbacks who sense the pressure sooner and react accordingly do not get that credit. A quarterback who maneuvers in the pocket to find a passing lane gets no credit in this instance, but a quarterback who has a pass tipped at the line gets that incomplete pass removed from his accuracy percentage. A quarterback who makes the mistake of throwing into double coverage is not chastised, but gets extra points if that pass is completed. Factors such as these make their passer ratings while under pressure questionable at the minimum, if not useless.


Exhibit C: A few years ago PFF's stats came to the conclusion that David Garrard was a better quarterback than Tom Brady; Gary Guyton was a better LB than Jerod Mayo; Stylez G. White was a better DE than Mario Williams and Jared Allen; Lamarr Woodley was better than DeMarcus Ware; Mike Vrabel (with KC) and Tamba Hali were better than Elvis Dumervil; Sione Pouha was a better DT than Vince Wilfork; and Jonathan Stewart, Justin Forsett, Jason Snelling, Ladell Betts, and Brian Leonard were all better running backs than Adrian Peterson.

Those type of rankings should have sent the developers of the site back to the drawing board, but instead they steadfastly defended them as being impeccable and beyond reproach. That stubbornness on PFF's part to defend their analysis rather than to even consider the possibility of the methodology being flawed makes me seriously doubt the validity of any of their research.
 
The problem with getting deep into individual football statistics (which is what PFF is all about), is that football is the ultimate team-oriented game, which in turn makes individual statistics less meaningful and relevant than they are in other sports. For example it is not like baseball, which is for the most part one-on-one competition, pitcher versus batter. With the evolution of the internet and computers, more and more statistics are readily available compared to past generation, and current sport fans crave those stats - as do the talking heads and written media types for their professions. After all the new stats that became available and used in baseball that were not around thirty years ago, sports fans wanted the same thing for football.

Blend in the fact that the NFL has by far become the nation's most popular sport, and you had the perfect storm for a stat-driven site such as PFF to not only become popular, to be given a free pass by far too many to question the validity of their data. PFF not only took advantage of this opportunity, but also marketed themselves very well.

One way they did this when they were new was to market mainstream sports writers and give them free subscriptions to the content others had to pay for. Writers were sold on the idea that they had exclusive information, giving them a leg up on their competition, which would in turn boost readership, ratings and ad revenue. This in turn gave PFF the exposure that they wanted to a mass audience, and also created demand from those consumers that wanted access to that same content, and would be willing to pay for it.

I have no problem at all for using the site for snap counts and similar information, but to be fair, there are other sites that do offer that same information. The reality is that the people that compile the stats are not professional scouts or coaches, and they don't know what the play call or assignments were. On top of that, they don't even use the available all-22 video to make their determinations; their priority is to get those latest stats out quickly, rather than waiting to make their assessments after the all-22 game tape is available.


Exhibit A: A quarterback throws an incomplete pass, missing his receiver by 6-7 yards. Immediately PFF diagnoses the blame as being solely on the QB, without ever considering any other possibility (e.g., the receiver ran a bad route and was in the incorrect spot).

Whether that is due to lack of training (never having worked as a coach or scout at any level), laziness, marketing (a desire to avoid pointing out a potential error in their stats, which would discredit their 'research'), the bottom line is that the data is corrupt - and therefore if not worthless, at minimum very suspect.


Exhibit B: Many of their stats rely far too much on information that they can not possibly know from watching a televised game, and others are simply too subjective. For example: quarterbacks are rated on throwing under pressure, but conversely quarterbacks who sense the pressure sooner and react accordingly do not get that credit. A quarterback who maneuvers in the pocket to find a passing lane gets no credit in this instance, but a quarterback who has a pass tipped at the line gets that incomplete pass removed from his accuracy percentage. A quarterback who makes the mistake of throwing into double coverage is not chastised, but gets extra points if that pass is completed. Factors such as these make their passer ratings while under pressure questionable at the minimum, if not useless.


Exhibit C: A few years ago PFF's stats came to the conclusion that David Garrard was a better quarterback than Tom Brady; Gary Guyton was a better LB than Jerod Mayo; Stylez G. White was a better DE than Mario Williams and Jared Allen; Lamarr Woodley was better than DeMarcus Ware; Mike Vrabel (with KC) and Tamba Hali were better than Elvis Dumervil; Sione Pouha was a better DT than Vince Wilfork; and Jonathan Stewart, Justin Forsett, Jason Snelling, Ladell Betts, and Brian Leonard were all better running backs than Adrian Peterson.

Those type of rankings should have sent the developers of the site back to the drawing board, but instead they steadfastly defended them as being impeccable and beyond reproach. That stubbornness on PFF's part to defend their analysis rather than to even consider the possibility of the methodology being flawed makes me seriously doubt the validity of any of their research.


I'd change the bolded part to "everything except the basic counting worthless" but, outside of that, I'm with you 100%.
 
The ESPN magazine thing was probably Nate Silver, who bases his probabilities off a simulation model using an amalgamation of predictions and power rankings (just like he bases his political models off an amalgamation of polling data).
I'm pretty sure it wasn't Nate Silver. I know who he is. The image was posted here last year. It was either PFF or Football Outsiders doing the "predictions."
 
Good for Mike Zimmer. He's right.

If you don't have specific knowledge of the scheme and the player's responsibility, it's tough to evaluate performance. BB has alluded to this, saying that even coaches can't always make definitive judgments of other teams on film because they don't know exactly what the players were supposed to do.


This has been my b.tch with these idiots since people started referring to them a number of years ago, they really don't know what the hell they are talking about but just continue to pretend they do because fantasy players eat it up and that means money. This site is 100% worthless and i hope people here continue to treat it as such. Any post that cites them is immediately rejected as not credible to me.
 
Exactly that.

Amateur armchair analyst sees a Tight End take in a 20 yard pass down the right hash beating a Safety to the ball - grades Safety negatively. But what if the Safety was playing the left side of the field and reacted because someone missed their assignment and ends up saving a Touchdown? Still negative? Or positive?

Without knowing what each player's responsibility is for each play, you simply cannot give an accurate grade.


I agree with this 100%, and it is one of the biggest reasons the site is a fraud.
 
Why does garbage like PFF get traction over say Football Outsiders which is actually good?
Football Outsiders acknowledges their limits and caveats the hell out of their data while PFF makes clean, clear, bold declarative statements. It is easier for numerically iffy reporters to regurgitate -- look it has a number, it must mean SOMETHING!
 
I want to know what are the 13 teams that get information from PFF. I just want to compile a list of General Managers and head coaches that need to be fired.

Information is one thing. As Manx said, there is value for counting stats (how often do the Lions stunt/twist/drop a DT into coverage and what down/distance) which could be a head start for game day scouting. If teams are getting PFF to do some of their advanced prep work, that makes sense to me,

Analysis is a different beast entirely.
 
I think you're completely misrepresenting my argument. Their idea was brilliant. Their marketing of the idea was brilliant. The risk involved was immense.

None of that means the final product is worthwhile. Perhaps the most impressive part of what they've done is convincing so many people that their product is worthwhile.

It is pretty amazing how many other media members and outlets have accepted their content as gospel. Peter King thinks they're fantastic. Chris Collinsworth just became part owner of their company. ESPN the Magazine used their full season predictions last year (This year, it's by Advanced Football Analytics). I picked up Hub Arkush's Pro Football Weekly preview magazine and they mention PFF stats throughout.
 
It is pretty amazing how many other media members and outlets have accepted their content as gospel. Peter King thinks they're fantastic. Chris Collinsworth just became part owner of their company. ESPN the Magazine used their full season predictions last year (This year, it's by Advanced Football Analytics). I picked up Hub Arkush's Pro Football Weekly preview magazine and they mention PFF stats throughout.
Lots of people own stock in companies like McDonalds and would never consider eating there so whether Peter King considers it valid and Collinsworth owns part of it, doesn't validate the products accuracy. The point is that good business means high consumer demand. It doesn't mean it's a good product.
 
It's a popular opinion as of right now. It won't be halfway through the season.

I got lazy and auto-drafted one of my FF teams this year. I apparently picked up Brady in the 9th round as my backup QB. My "real" QB: Robert Griffin III.

Over in the one where I didn't auto-draft, I took him in the 6th, just in case someone else was going to grab him as a "sleeper."
 
PFF has it's place don't see the big deal why everyone gets so worked up over it...
 
Lots of people own stock in companies like McDonalds and would never consider eating there so whether Peter King considers it valid and Collinsworth owns part of it, doesn't validate the products accuracy. The point is that good business means high consumer demand. It doesn't mean it's a good product.

I agree. My point wasn't to tout PFF because media members endorse it. I just found it a bit surprising that is had gained that amount of traction that it has. I haven't done a survey, but I can't think of a prominent media person who has criticized them. You'll hear a coach mention them negatively once in a while, but that's about it. It's a different sport, but I've seen articles criticizing the sabremetricians and the "new" stats in baseball, but nothing comparable in football. And guys like Peter King aren't even in a "Well, they have some good info, but I don't agree with these conclusions" camp. They think everything PFF does is fantastic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


MORSE: Patriots Draft Needs and Draft Related Info
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/19: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf’s Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/18/24
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/18: News and Notes
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/17: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/16: News and Notes
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/15: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-14, Mock Draft 3.0, Gilmore, Law Rally For Bill 
Potential Patriot: Boston Globe’s Price Talks to Georgia WR McConkey
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/12: News and Notes
Back
Top