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PFF called out by Vikings Coach (same group that called Brady "not elite")


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I want to know what are the 13 teams that get information from PFF. I just want to compile a list of General Managers and head coaches that need to be fired.

I was a bit dubious of that as well. We really don't know what this "information" is or how they use it, if it all. It could be the PR department with a paid subscription that just wants to know what is being said about them.
 
I wrote a couple posts about a month ago about how PFF can be useful for fans but is not really statistical analysis and shouldn't be viewed as such. I'll repost them here.

It's not "advanced stats." It's qualitative analysis made up to look like statistics. Think grading essays using a rubric. That doesn't mean I think PFF is useless, it just means I think it tries to be something it's not.

This isn't even what PFF tries to do analytically [note: was responding to someone talking about how it was quantitative analysis], and you're making the mistake they want you to make by equating numbers with true statistical analysis - which, I'll add, is very powerful even in football. Statistical analysis generally requires probabilistic statements - we can never be one hundred percent sure that X is true, but we can say that it will occur given A, B, and C with N degree of certainty. Generally, there's a great deal of statistical error - randomness - in these models when it comes to sports (or anything, really) and the job of the statistician/sabermetrician is to find what other variables can go into the model to better explain phenomena. To get this sort of analysis, you need to read research papers of the kind that are presented at the Sloan MIT Analytics conference. DVOA and DYAR and the like come closer because they use a model to generate advanced analytics, and those analytics feel reliable, but outside of QBs, they're mostly team metrics.

Pro Football Focus, on the other hand, has volunteers sitting there and watching each play of a game and grading players on every play. This is inherently valuable. I don't watch every play to see if Dan Connolly messed up, but the PFF folks do. Now, of course, they're working with incomplete information so they have to make subjective calls as to whether someone screwed up. We don't know what the rubric they're grading from looks like. Like any grading, it's subject to individual preference - an A in one class is not an A in another class, just like a +10 for one grader at PFF may not be a +10 for another grader. Tom Brady and Drew Brees could have the same exact game but the former could receive a +8 and the latter a +11 just because the Patriots grader is more stingy or critical than the Saints grader.

Moreover, the numbers aren't really scalar metrics, despite appearing as such. There's no logical way to differentiate said +11 from +8; does it mean that Brees was "3" better than Brady? 3 of what? It's really just a stand-in to say "this player performed very well" or "this player was slightly above average" or "this player was crap." This is why presenting their grades as sortable and rankable is total bunk, done to generate conversation and website clicks (Brady is #98 and Rivers is #44, for example)

However, the value is that you know that players who were awarded good grades or bad grades for a given game probably played well or played poorly because their performance was pored over by people who have a lot more free time than any of us (except maybe Brady6). PFF's volunteers are the sort of weird OCD people who spend an hour grading the performance of a right guard 16 weeks a year. Just by virtue of having their eyes on every play multiple times, they see performances that we don't just because we don't have time to rewatch games over and over. It's an alternative to a lot of the narrative-driven analysis you get at places like ESPN, where groupthink about a particular player overrides the truth. "Tony Romo isn't clutch" is the perfect example of that. You just have to triangulate PFF analysis with other sources.

That's why I like the site, but it's important to keep in mind that their grades aren't statistics (some of their advanced statistics are indeed statistics, but it's hard to differentiate them and they aren't transparent with their calculations or rubric) and that the grades should be used as a general guide to who's a good player rather than as a way to say good player X is better than good player Y because that's an exercise in futility no matter what stats you're using to justify it.

For example, JJ Watt, Lavonte David, Darrelle Revis, and Richard Sherman all graded out extremely well in PFF and they're known to be outstanding players anyways. Revis is interesting because the narrative analysis was that he had "a down year" last season, but this analysis says Devin McCourty graded very well. Then there are some guys you never really hear about who graded very well like Stephen Tulloch, Dontari Poe, Damon Harrison, and Jason Kelce. That's interesting, and it encourages me to take a closer look at those players from other sources, like their local media or fanbase who may already know that they're a diamond in the rough who you never hear about because they're not part of the narrative.
 
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I would like more people in positions of power to call out PFF for the **** heap ratings services that is truly is.
 
I think there is some truth to what you say but that type of data is not what they typically promote. Instead we get the Tom Brady is no longer elite nonsense which they have been saying for years. The bigger problem is how some media take their grading as gospel.

Well that's a charge you should be targeting at the media, not PFF. Like any good business, PFF promote their USP and it seems that it works considering how many members of the media accept their stats. And this is the crux. Because it's next to impossible to watch every single NFL player across every game, there's a need for some form of objective analysis. PFF have tried to fill that void and have thus increased our knowledge about the game (I can now have some information about how my draft binkies are performing - Terrence Fede and Caraun Reid are doing very nicely so far). It might not be perfect, but I'd prefer this situation than being completely in the dark.
 
I have no idea why people make such a big deal about PFF. It's just one data point useful for things like snap counts, of some use for information like how many hurries a defensive player has (for example, it's just told me that one of my pre-draft banks Caraun Reid has the most QB hurries of any DT during this pre-season, something of interest to me) and less useful for it's grading. It certainly doesn't deserve the weird bigotry so many on Patsfans have against it. It is neither The Gospel, nor is it a complete waste of time.
I prefer that my data points have something supporting their credibility at evaluating football and don't have a history of pushing ridiculous agendas to cover up their own inadequacies. It says a lot about the sad state of NFL media that all it takes to gain a substantial following is an idea, free time, and one guy who can do the math behind it all.
 
I prefer that my data points have something supporting their credibility at evaluating football and don't have a history of pushing ridiculous agendas to cover up their own inadequacies. It says a lot about the sad state of NFL media that all it takes to gain a substantial following is an idea, free time, and one guy who can do the math behind it all.

I feel that way about certain sections of the media and of course, that's entirely up to you. For me, I find that it has some use to me and treat it accordingly

It says a lot about the sad state of NFL media that all it takes to gain a substantial following is an idea, free time, and one guy who can do the math behind it all.

As for this, I have no idea why some of you critics don't set up in competition. The market is there and you all think it easy to accomplish. Do it and make yourself some money. Personally I have a lot of admiration for people that identify a market, take the necessary risks and earn a good living from it.
 
I have no idea why people make such a big deal about PFF.

Because it took a useful notion (snap counts, basic numbers) and ruined it for money.

And, yes, outside of snap counts, it pretty much is a complete waste of time.
 
So bearing in mind that PFF grades Zach Kerr the best 3-4 DE in pre-season, Terrence Fede the 6th best 4-3 DE in pre-season and Caraun Reid the best DT in pre-season and bearing in mind they were all major binkies of mine, I'm going to stick with supporting PFF :p
 
Because it took a useful notion (snap counts, basic numbers) and ruined it for money.

And, yes, outside of snap counts, it pretty much is a complete waste of time.

Not for me it isn't.
 
Not for me it isn't.

Yes, even for you it is. Your willingness to accept shoddy work doesn't make that shoddy work a non-waste of time.
 
Why does garbage like PFF get traction over say Football Outsiders which is actually good?

If you want to ruin your morning, take a look at the Historical DVOA of Champions. 58th out of 64 is the 2011 Giants. 62nd out of 64 is the 2007 Giants (2007 Pats were #2 in overall DVOA ever). On the other hand the 2001 Pats were 59th out of 64, so...

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS | Historical DVOA Estimates
 
I think PT and Max have gotten it right. It's simply too easy to summarily dismiss sights like PFF, especially when their conclusions don't match our own. The key phrase to remember from PT's well written explanation is "SUBJECTIVE analysis". PFF offers detailed analysis based on someone's OPINION.
It's a starting point, NOT the gospel.

The problem arises when mediots and experts take his "subjective analysis" and treat it as the gospel. Why are we shocked, when we live in a world where rumor is routinely reported as fact. :eek: Its our responsibility as knowledgeable fans to sift through the BS and determine what is valuable and what isn't. Unfortunately, too many of mediots and some of us, are simply too lazy to make that effort. We just eat up whatever pablum the mediots feed us like a hungry 10 month old.

The internet has a lot of useful information, but not all the information on the internet is useful or even factual. We should always take any so called "anaylsis" we hear in the media with a grain of salt. One person's opinion doesn't make it a fact. By the same token, a person's opinion or analysis shouldn't be dismissed either. It has value as a discussion point.
 
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Reading PFF is like talking to a medium. It's not that there's anything wrong with believing in ghosts, it's just incredibly dangerous to base any decisions in your life on the word of someone who can claim to speak to them.
 
Yes, even for you it is. Your willingness to accept shoddy work doesn't make that shoddy work a non-waste of time.

I think I'll be the judge of what wastes my time or not thank you Deus.
 
I think I'll be the judge of what wastes my time or not thank you Deus.

You confuse "I'm fine with that wasting my time" with "I decide what's a waste of time." Watching the Kardashians on TV is a time waster, whether you love the show or not. Going to a site that pimps horrible, wrong analysis is a waste of time, whether you think the place is the greatest thing since sliced bread or now.

And, if you were going to take the "I'll be the judge" approach, you shouldn't have given me the original answer you did, since it would be a given for everyone on an individual level.
 
You confuse "I'm fine with that wasting my time" with "I decide what's a waste of time." Watching the Kardashians on TV is a time waster, whether you love the show or not. Going to a site that pimps horrible, wrong analysis is a waste of time, whether you think the place is the greatest thing since sliced bread or now.

And you seem to be confusing opinion and fact. That PFF is a waste of time is your opinion, nothing more. Considering you know nothing about how much time I spend on PFF (I'll give you a clue, today was the first time in months) any comment about whether I'm wasting my time is nothing more than worthless. Sorry Deus but you can do better than that.
 
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I view the two very differently. Football Outsiders tried to bring something new to football by doing statistical analysis of play results. Its also far from perfect but gives a data point and comparative that you might not otherwise see. PFF on the other hand tries to replicate what scouts and coaches do but based on some of their conclusions/grades they are obviously missing something in their system. There seems to be a serious flaw there.

An example is that their system of rating QBs gives value to making a poor throw into coverage instead of throwing to a wide open receiver by downgrading the correct decision as not being a 'difficult throw'.
I don't know if you need to see any more than that to know the people producing their ratings do not understand the game.
 
I want to know what are the 13 teams that get information from PFF. I just want to compile a list of General Managers and head coaches that need to be fired.
I would imagine it is snap counts, which is the only number they produce that is reliable and accurate.
 
I have no idea why people make such a big deal about PFF. It's just one data point useful for things like snap counts, of some use for information like how many hurries a defensive player has (for example, it's just told me that one of my pre-draft banks Caraun Reid has the most QB hurries of any DT during this pre-season, something of interest to me) and less useful for it's grading. It certainly doesn't deserve the weird bigotry so many on Patsfans have against it. It is neither The Gospel, nor is it a complete waste of time.

The issue isn't its existence, but its usage. Its poor rating system is regurgitated as if it were fact.
We have had numerous people on this board make claims, based upon that, such as Ryan Wendell was the best C in the NFL in 2012.
Also, the example you give of "QB pressures' has to also be taken with a grain of salt, because it is an objective analysis of what constitutes 'pressure' or not, and these numbers are coming from people who clearly do not understand the game.
 
And you seem to be confusing opinion and fact.

The site itself used to admit to a 20% error rate, which itself was an incorrectly low estimate. Right here you have a coach telling you the same thing many of us have been telling you. You can call it opinion all you want. The FACT is that the site's lousy with its analysis, as has been demonstrated time and again.

That PFF is a waste of time is your opinion, nothing more. Considering you know nothing about how much time I spend on PFF (I'll give you a clue, today was the first time in months) any comment about whether I'm wasting my time is nothing more than worthless trolling. Sorry Deus but you can do better than that.

How much time you waste is completely irrelevant to my posts, and it's something I don't give a damn about. You're welcome to waste your time however you wish. Your childish responses also don't miraculously make my posts trolling, though.

Sorry, but your butthurt over people bagging on that crap site is nothing more than that. You should be aiming that butthurt at the site. If you want, feel free to do it in a "positive" manner, by convincing the owner to do things better.
 
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