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3-4 and attacking the C – the what to do when your not making your latest roster projection edition


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As I have mentioned several times, I have found that the fact the Pats have been predominately in a basic 3-4 alignment for the entire pre-season is extremely interesting as well as very puzzling. It’s not historically puzzling since BB was in the forefront of establishing the 3-4 as the go to alignment well over a decade ago. What’s puzzling is that the current roster has virtually none the front seven skill sets you’d normally expect to find in a BB 3-4. Only Vince and Hightower seem to fit the mold, but the rest of the front 7 roster just screams 4-3; especially now that the ONLY player who fit the 3-4 DE mold has been released.

We’ve come to recognize over the years, BB does nothing without a purpose. So after almost 6 weeks of seeing the 3-4, this is NOT just BB trying faking out his opponents. There is clearly a method to this seeming madness. This thread will be my attempt to explain the dichotomy.

1. Let’s start with the notion that not all 3-4’s are the same. In the past, the 3-4 that BB ran was based on 2 gaping defensive linemen, a plethora of big strong LB’s, and a secondary predominantly playing ZONE principals

But there are other 3-4 schemes and principals. **** LeBeau has been at the forefront of the 3-4 for just as long as BB, but his 3-4 was vastly different. His was a 3-4 that often one gapped his linemen, and strongly believed in an aggressive zone blitz scheme. Rex Ryan also runs a 3-4 as a base, but uses many of his father’s 4-6 principals in its execution.

So when you break down who we are likely to have playing and the vastly changed environment in which they are playing in, what is BB thinking?

2. There has been a lot of talk this season about the C position. This got me thinking about how hard a position it is to play. Beyond the issues of having to make line calls, we take for granted that the C has to snap the ball, an act that leaves him a step behind the rest of the OL in defending against a direct attack by the DL. He is especially vulnerable when he has to shotgun snap, which is about 50% of the time these days. Think about it. At the same time the rest of the OL have extended their arms to protect against the attacking D, the C has one arm fully extended between his legs with all his momentum going backwards.

When most teams played a 4-3 this wasn’t a problem as the C was uncovered and not susceptible to immediate attack. If this was 1975 a C with Ryan Wendell’s skill set would have been an all pro. Now because most teams attack the C directly, and undersized guy like Wendell has become a marginal player.

So here we are. BB is faced with a roster filled with experienced 4-3 players, yet he still wants to take advantage of 3 things a 3-4 alignment allows. First, it better allows you to disguise your pass rush. This is key given all the rules changes that make it virtually impossible to defend the pass when a QB has time and can make the right read. The sad fact is that the only way to stop a good offense today is to have them stop themselves with mistakes. Secondly, it’s traditionally stronger against the run, and finally and most importantly, it allows you to attack the C directly.

I originally thought that a big part of the reason BB moved to a 4-3 was to get 2 immediate defenders to create push up the middle. In today’s game where teams routinely pass 67% of the time, getting immediate pressure is critical. Chicks may dig the edge rushers, but its push up the middle that is the key to an effective pass rush. They may not get the sacks, but they are the ones who get the QB off is “spot”. They are the ones to force QB’s to change their arm angle, and thus create inaccuracy. They are the ones who make the QB uncomfortable and more likely to make a quick throw into tight coverage.

So what we are seeing (actually not seeing… yet), is BB setting the stage for a D that is able to immediately attack the OL at its weakest point, but with the idea of still being able to attack the middle of the OL with at least 2 immediate defenders, and thus get that “middle push” defenses so desperately try to create.

3. Side benefits of this strategy are the following:

a. The Pats have 3 LB’s who are have above average skills. In a 4-3 at least one of them would be off the field most of the time. In a 3-4 it’s more likely that 3 of them will be on the field almost all the time since 2 are good in coverage, 2 can rush the passer. And all seem to be good in run protection. So we can still have 5 DB’s on the field most of the time, and not have one of our better defenders on the sidelines.

b. In a 3-4 he X’s and O’s possibilities for a team with players who have great position flexibility is endless. And complete falls in synch for a coach whose philosophy is to create a different defensive game plan week to week.

Summary – at first I thought the 3-4 we were seeing in TC was a means to teach the basic fundamental techniques of Patriot defense. Then a few weeks later, I thought it was just a feint in preparation for the regular season. But after almost a full TC of virtually nothing but seeing a 3-4, I’m convinced for all the reasons above, that THIS is what we are going to see as our base.

That being said, I want to be clear that the 2014 version of the Pats 3-4 is going to look a LOT more like we’ve seen from the Steeler’s Jets, and Raven’s than the read and react, 2 gap version that worked so well for us in the early 2000’s

I for one will look forward to seeing all the permutations and iterations that will be created by our own resident rocket scientist. BTW- as I wrote this so many other thoughts pertaining to this topic came to mind, but in the interest of not trying the patience of my fellow Pats fans too much, I hope that most of them come out later as the discussion grows (which assumes I will remember any of them an hour from now. :) )

C’mon Ian we really need a "chalkboard forum". ;)
 
I personally don't think that we'll see the 3-4 as our base. I think we'll be multiple - that's been BB's buzzword for a while. I'm sure we'll see plenty of 3-4, along with 4-3, 5-2, 2-5, 4-2, 3-3, 2-4 and 1-5 sets. But I obviously have no crystal ball, and I have no clue why BB is doing what he is doing in the preseason.
 
We may be overanalyzing something that (as BB has noted before) is just a lineup that allows you to assess more DL at a time.
 
Can you explain who'd be playing where in this attacking 3-4? Unless you're putting Chandler Jones at DE full-time in the base, it seems like it'd be putting inferior players on the field compared to their 4-3 from last year.
 
I think it was 3-4 years ago in an interview with BB he commented on a trend of the best defenses getting pressure in the middle as opposed to from the outside.

In regards to 3-4 vs 4-3, at the end of the day I don't think it really matters. I hate to use Seattle as an example but their 4-3 is a lot more like a 3-4. It really isn't about # of DTs on the line, it is about total # of players on the line. Seattle almost always has 5 players on or right at the LOS before the snap. Sometimes 3 of those 5 are DTs but usually only 2 are DTs and the other 3 are 2 DEs and 1 LB.

I will say though that I do think BB's 3-4 that we played in the early 2000s probably doesn't fit our personnel and might not even fit the way the game is played these days. The run was much more prominent back then than it is now. Couple that with the fact that average QBs are a lot better at completing easy throws so you can't really sit back and wait for mistakes like we used to, you have to be aggressive and force mistakes.
 
Can you explain who'd be playing where in this attacking 3-4? Unless you're putting Chandler Jones at DE full-time in the base, it seems like it'd be putting inferior players on the field compared to their 4-3 from last year.

Here is my 3-4.

Strong defensive left
LOLB Ninkovich
LDE Easley
NT Wilfork
RDE Jones
LILB Hightower
RILB Mayo
ROLB Collins

Strong defensive right
LDE Nickovich
NT Wilforok
RDE Easley
ROLB Jones
LOLB Hightower
LILB Mayo
RILB Collins


In other words, you take the 43 personell, shift to strength and stand up the strongside DE and call him an OLB then call your 43 a 34
 
I agree with whole OP.
That being said, I want to be clear that the 2014 version of the Pats 3-4 is going to look a LOT more like we’ve seen from the Steeler’s Jets, and Raven’s than the read and react, 2 gap version that worked so well for us in the early 2000’s
This would explain the Easley pick and Worthy acquisition. They can't 2 gap in any scheme.
 
a. The Pats have 3 LB’s who are have above average skills. In a 4-3 at least one of them would be off the field most of the time. In a 3-4 it’s more likely that 3 of them will be on the field almost all the time since 2 are good in coverage, 2 can rush the passer. And all seem to be good in run protection. So we can still have 5 DB’s on the field most of the time, and not have one of our better defenders on the sidelines.

;)

Can you explain?
In a 43 you have Jones and Ninkovich at DEs and the 3 LBs at LB
In a 34 you are talking one of those players out for a DT if you are playing Jones and Nnkovich at OLB.
 
Can you explain?
In a 43 you have Jones and Ninkovich at DEs and the 3 LBs at LB
In a 34 you are talking one of those players out for a DT if you are playing Jones and Nnkovich at OLB.

If we were to take any player off the field for an extra DT, it should be Hightower. Definitely not Ninko or Chandler Jones. I just can't get with the idea of playing Chandler Jones at 5 tech DE in a 3-4 though. Sure, he has long arms but he's capable of so much more at 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB. If you play Chandler Jones at 3-4 5-tech DE you're basically guaranteeing he gets double teamed on every snap... which could happen anyway but I'd rather play a scheme where we can get a guy like Chandler as many 1-on-1s as possible.
 
If we were to take any player off the field for an extra DT, it should be Hightower. Definitely not Ninko or Chandler Jones. I just can't get with the idea of playing Chandler Jones at 5 tech DE in a 3-4 though. Sure, he has long arms but he's capable of so much more at 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB. If you play Chandler Jones at 3-4 5-tech DE you're basically guaranteeing he gets double teamed on every snap... which could happen anyway but I'd rather play a scheme where we can get a guy like Chandler as many 1-on-1s as possible.
But thats not really accomplishing what you imply. Taking Hightower out means taking Jones or Nink out of pass rushing and making them cover. Thats not an improvement.

Jones is essentially a 5 Tech right now as a 43 DE.
Lets be clear that in the 34 I mentioned (which by the way, is how BB played the 34 last year) he is only lined up as a DE on the weak side, and stands up as an "OLB" on the strong side.
 
But thats not really accomplishing what you imply. Taking Hightower out means taking Jones or Nink out of pass rushing and making them cover. Thats not an improvement.

Jones is essentially a 5 Tech right now as a 43 DE.
Lets be clear that in the 34 I mentioned (which by the way, is how BB played the 34 last year) he is only lined up as a DE on the weak side, and stands up as an "OLB" on the strong side.

That's a great observation about Chandler Jones that I hadn't picked up on. Using him like that probably makes more sense.
 
It does make us a faster, more explosive team that can disguise the front better. I think this is the direction BB wants to go in this passing league.
 
I agree with Mayo in that we're going to see multiple alignments this season as our base and they'll probably be matchup specific. The "3-4 question" that has come up this offseason in my opinion is answered by the players we have on the roster. I actually think our roster is more suited towards the 43 with the ability to play a 34 rather than vice versa.

4-3_Under.JPG


Here's an example of your 4-3 under "base" defense over in Seattle. Obviously Vince would be your 1 tech 2 gapping NT which are the same responsibilities that he would have in our good ole 34, fitting his skillset perfectly. Moving down the line on both sides are your 3-tech, where you want a fast, penetrating defensive tackle.This fits Easley's skillset to a T. The 2nd DT (who is listed as a 4tech which throws me off a bit) is another 2gapper. Sileaver Siliga is the 1st name that comes to mind in this spot. Obviously your Leo and SLB would flip depending upon the alignment so that could be any combination of Chandler and Nink/Hightower with Mayo and Collins as your Mike and Will. IMO this is probably the best way to get Nink and Chandler some rest without taking them off the field and having to replace them with strictly a hand in the dirt pass rusher. This also allows both to get looks playing standup or with their hand in the dirt.

Here's an article about San Francisco playing similar games with Aldon Smith and Ahmad Brookes

3-4 or 4-3 Under? | Inside the 49ers

n6s3s6.jpg



The one thing I've admired about RR and watching Seattle/San Francisco over the last few years is how they dictate where the ball is headed and how quickly they swarmed to the ball and limited YAC. If you can do both of those things you can be as close to spotless as a defense on 3rd and intermediates/longs as you can be in todays NFL. Rex would bring exotic pressures and force the QB to get rid of the ball quick underneath and it would be either incomplete or stopped short of the sticks. When you have a Revis or a Sherman, that goes along with in dictating where the ball is headed. If we can disguise and bring pressure from different places using standup ends where guys can play short zones on tight ends like Julius Thomas as Chander Jones loops around a tackle and drives him into Peyton forcing him to step right into a helmet from Dominque Easley.......alright Im done now.
 
Can you explain?
In a 43 you have Jones and Ninkovich at DEs and the 3 LBs at L
In a 34 you are talking one of those players out for a DT if you are playing Jones and Nnkovich at OLB.
The point I was trying to relate was that playing in a 3-4 makes it more likely that our 3 plus LB's will be more likely to be on the field for more downs. which would be a plus in passing situations. (which is every down these days). Having 5 DB's on the field is likely to be SOP, so most of the time either a LB or DLman is going to be off the field.

Remember, Andy, I'm not necessarily advocating playing a 3-4, I'm just trying to explain why a team with a roster that literally screams 4-3, has played a 3-4 all preseason. Personally, like most here, I expect us to be very multiple in our schemes week to week.
 
The point I was trying to relate was that playing in a 3-4 makes it more likely that our 3 plus LB's will be more likely to be on the field for more downs. which would be a plus in passing situations. (which is every down these days). Having 5 DB's on the field is likely to be SOP, so most of the time either a LB or DLman is going to be off the field.

Remember, Andy, I'm not necessarily advocating playing a 3-4, I'm just trying to explain why a team with a roster that literally screams 4-3, has played a 3-4 all preseason. Personally, like most here, I expect us to be very multiple in our schemes week to week.

But I still don't understand what you are saying.
Which 3 players would all be on the field in 34 and not a 43.
One of the 5 of Ninkovich, Jones, Hightower, Collins, Mayo would be sitting if we play a 34 with 3 true DL.
The way I am reading this your comments support a 43 not a 34.

Nickle is irrelevant to this.
 
I personally don't think that we'll see the 3-4 as our base. I think we'll be multiple - that's been BB's buzzword for a while. I'm sure we'll see plenty of 3-4, along with 4-3, 5-2, 2-5, 4-2, 3-3, 2-4 and 1-5 sets. But I obviously have no crystal ball, and I have no clue why BB is doing what he is doing in the preseason.

We may be overanalyzing something that (as BB has noted before) is just a lineup that allows you to assess more DL at a time.

I think these two posts sum it up. Likely Bill is trying to evaluate who can effectively two gap but I expect they'll be playing a 4-3 under especially with Worthy and Easley. A 4-3 under requires certain positions to two gap while others one gap. I do expect us to be multiple but I think the 4-3 under or some version with extra DBs will see the most play. Against the Vikings or a team that wants to run as their first and second options yes I can see a 3-4.
 
I agree with Mayo in that we're going to see multiple alignments this season as our base and they'll probably be matchup specific. The "3-4 question" that has come up this offseason in my opinion is answered by the players we have on the roster. I actually think our roster is more suited towards the 43 with the ability to play a 34 rather than vice versa.

4-3_Under.JPG


Here's an example of your 4-3 under "base" defense over in Seattle. Obviously Vince would be your 1 tech 2 gapping NT which are the same responsibilities that he would have in our good ole 34, fitting his skillset perfectly. Moving down the line on both sides are your 3-tech, where you want a fast, penetrating defensive tackle.This fits Easley's skillset to a T. The 2nd DT (who is listed as a 4tech which throws me off a bit) is another 2gapper. Sileaver Siliga is the 1st name that comes to mind in this spot. Obviously your Leo and SLB would flip depending upon the alignment so that could be any combination of Chandler and Nink/Hightower with Mayo and Collins as your Mike and Will. IMO this is probably the best way to get Nink and Chandler some rest without taking them off the field and having to replace them with strictly a hand in the dirt pass rusher. This also allows both to get looks playing standup or with their hand in the dirt.

Here's an article about San Francisco playing similar games with Aldon Smith and Ahmad Brookes

3-4 or 4-3 Under? | Inside the 49ers

n6s3s6.jpg



The one thing I've admired about RR and watching Seattle/San Francisco over the last few years is how they dictate where the ball is headed and how quickly they swarmed to the ball and limited YAC. If you can do both of those things you can be as close to spotless as a defense on 3rd and intermediates/longs as you can be in todays NFL. Rex would bring exotic pressures and force the QB to get rid of the ball quick underneath and it would be either incomplete or stopped short of the sticks. When you have a Revis or a Sherman, that goes along with in dictating where the ball is headed. If we can disguise and bring pressure from different places using standup ends where guys can play short zones on tight ends like Julius Thomas as Chander Jones loops around a tackle and drives him into Peyton forcing him to step right into a helmet from Dominque Easley.......alright Im done now.

Thanks for the diagram as it clarifies my point and I agree with you.
 
First of all thank you as always to the smart football guys for the chalk-talk... and cannot wait to see which we see more of after games are real. It does cross my mind that if you're in TC trying to be ready to show multiple fronts, it's likely to be harder to teach and tweak the 3-4 end of things than the 4-3, which might account for the high 3-4 count in pre-season.
 
I always thought the 3 tech was a guards inside (center side) shoulder. The diagram posted shows the 3 tech DT on the guard's outside (tackle side) shoulder. I beleived this to be 5 tech. Am I wrong is the diagram wrong?
 
I always thought the 3 tech was a guards inside (center side) shoulder. The diagram posted shows the 3 tech DT on the guard's outside (tackle side) shoulder. I beleived this to be 5 tech. Am I wrong is the diagram wrong?

As I understand it, you start with 0-tech lining up directly over centre and work your way out so the 1-tech lines up between centre and guard, the 2-tech directly over the guard and so therefore the 3-tech would line up outside the guard...4 over the tackle, 5 outside the tackle etc
 
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