Had they both been available, would you have picked Manziel or Garoppolo?

rochrist said:

Do you know how many SBs have been won by teams with questionable QBs?

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Not many, in the past 10 years there has been 1 SB that did not include at least one of Brady, P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, or Roethlisberger and that was the 2012 SB with Flacco and Kaepernick, who are both considered franchise QBs by their teams.

AzPatsFan said:

This is confirmed by Schlecter's revelation that it wasn't that no other team wanted Ryan Mallett. It was that BB told everyone the Pats needed him for their SuperBowl run, and he wasn't for sale. Maybe not even for a number 1 pick, either.

They will lose him next year, but expect a Comp 3 or better from a trade after the post season.

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Surely, you don't really believe either of these statements, do you?

1) You honestly believe that the Patriots wouldn't have traded Ryan Mallett for a 2nd or 3rd round pick---let alone your example of a "number 1 pick?" I don't agree. There have been so many reports that have come and gone, we don't know who to believe. If the WAS Redskins were willing to deal Kirk Cousins (much more established and polished than Mallett) for a 2nd and didn't receive any takers, I'm not sure that I buy the rumors that we turned down all of these offers.

2) This high comp pick that you're expecting (the highest it could be is a 3rd) is taken into account by a forumla consisting of

A--Playing time

B--Post season award/MVP, etc

C--Price of contract

D--On field success

What in the world makes you look at this formula and immediately jump to the conclusion that our backup QB Ryan Mallett is going to factor in the compensatory pick formula in an extremely positive way?

It also should be noted that the team's overall free agent losses/gains is the biggest factor in this formula, so we aren't guaranteed anything at all for losing anyone. It will depend on the moves that we make, who comes, who leaves, and the factors from above.

At this point in time, I wouldn't expect Mallett to bring anything more than a 5th--6th round comp pick at best, and that's IF he gets the kind of 2.5--3m dollar per year borderline starter/backup pact that we all assume.

supafly said:

Surely, you don't really believe either of these statements, do you?

1) You honestly believe that the Patriots wouldn't have traded Ryan Mallett for a 2nd or 3rd round pick---let alone your example of a "number 1 pick?" I don't agree. There have been so many reports that have come and gone, we don't know who to believe. If the WAS Redskins were willing to deal Kirk Cousins (much more established and polished than Mallett) for a 2nd and didn't receive any takers, I'm not sure that I buy the rumors that we turned down all of these offers.

2) This high comp pick that you're expecting (the highest it could be is a 3rd) is taken into account by a forumla consisting of

A--Playing time

B--Post season award/MVP, etc

C--Price of contract

D--On field success

What in the world makes you look at this formula and immediately jump to the conclusion that our backup QB Ryan Mallett is going to factor in the compensatory pick formula in an extremely positive way?

It also should be noted that the team's overall free agent losses/gains is the biggest factor in this formula, so we aren't guaranteed anything at all for losing anyone. It will depend on the moves that we make, who comes, who leaves, and the factors from above.

At this point in time, I wouldn't expect Mallett to bring anything more than a 5th--6th round comp pick at best, and that's IF he gets the kind of 2.5--3m dollar per year borderline starter/backup pact that we all assume.

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I tend to believe Schlecter's story. He is pretty wired in and his stories tend to be more truthful than most. Y'all rampage about with not having an adequate backup TE, in the event Gronk gets hurt.

But y'all seem to think a backup QB is wholly uneccessary. Belichick knows better.

There is a value to be able to preserve a season because your spare QB could fill in. He is willing to pay the current cheap price for doing so. Next year after Polo has a season to digest training, he can start to assume that role. But not even Tom Brady could do so as a rookie, and he was groomed in a big time collegiate football environment.

AzPatsFan said:

Y'all rampage about with not having an adequate backup TE, in the event Gronk gets hurt.

But y'all seem to think a backup QB is wholly uneccessary. Belichick knows better.

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I think if you read any of my posts on the subject, you'll see that I have never once believed that we're trading Mallett or only keeping 2 QBs.

I'm simply disputing your notion that we wouldn't have traded him for a 1st round pick. I think that's really pushing things.

AzPatsFan said:

There is a value to be able to preserve a season because your spare QB could fill in. He is willing to pay the current cheap price for doing so. Next year after Polo has a season to digest training, he can start to assume that role. But not even Tom Brady could do so as a rookie, and he was groomed in a big time collegiate football environment.

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I hope that Mallett finishes out his career here in 2014 before heading to free agency.

supafly said:

I think if you read any of my posts on the subject, you'll see that I have never once believed that we're trading Mallett or only keeping 2 QBs.

I'm simply disputing your notion that we wouldn't have traded him for a 1st round pick. I think that's really pushing things.



I hope that Mallett finishes out his career here in 2014 before heading to free agency.

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I find it difficult to believe that Lord Belichick, career cost-benefit advocate wouldn't have traded a back-up 3rd round QB for a 1st round pick. That's a net gain of 2 rounds.

In my opinion, there is no intelligent opinion that would support such a notion.

ausbacker said:

I find it difficult to believe that Lord Belichick, career cost-benefit advocate wouldn't have traded a back-up 3rd round QB for a 1st round pick. That's a net gain of 2 rounds.

In my opinion, there is no intelligent opinion that would support such a notion.

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Agreed. While we're at it, I'm of the opinion that he'd have greatly considered a 2nd rounder, and maybe even a 3rd rounder as well.

"Money" celebration...pass
Johnny football...pass
Short, not stout, likes to run...pass
Comes from money with off the field questions...pass
Ryan Leaf anyone? Anyone?

Gets snagged on camera rolling a bill in a Vegas club...Jamarcus "purple draaaaannnnnnnnnnkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk" Russell...anyone?

Going by their college careers, I'll be honest. I seen a lot of Manziel and none of JG. JG was unknown. Played in a small college. After a couple of years he could be the next Aaron Rodgers or the next Giovanni Carmazzi. So I would have taken Manziel.

But how can one not be impressed by JG?? The kids release is awesome. He throws a much better ball than Manziel. He just seems like he gets it. As opposed to Manziel, who's a spoiled punk, who's had everything handed to him.

JIMMY football>>>>>Manziel

If it were me and both Jimmy G and Manziel were on the board, I hate to say it, but I think we would have missed our pick because I would have been in the bathroom mourning the passing of Al Davis. Think about it for a second. BB was only a draft or two away from convincing Davis to give up a first rounder for a can of magic beans. Now imagine what he would have given up to grab a guy like Manziel. We could have set ourselves up with additional first rounders for the next decade.

The kid looks good. I think the pats really refined and nailed their QB drafting strategy. They saw something most did not and went for it. You start with makeup, add the arm strength and accuracy to make all the NFL throws. Which is a given. Add mobility and leadership. Desired but optional. Then add exceptional field awareness, and a lightning release. That's why all JG's receivers seem so open. He just sees that they are open quicker, releases the rock faster and throws ropes on target. IMO it's the first two (awareness, release) which he excels, which might be the new secret formula for QBs. All combined, his skillset just gets the ball in the receivers hands faster. Which is what it's all about in the NFL. Give less time for the DBs to react, more time for your WRs to adjust and cut, and the added bonus of extra room to use your skill after the catch.

Anyone who doesn't want to have a succession plan is a moron, end of.

This 'get Brady a Superbowl' mentality is very likely to years of a losing record whilst we have ****e QB's knocking around until years later we finally get one, at which point I will have grey hair.

You could 'suck for Luck', but 'sucking for Vince Young' and 'sucking for Genoooo Smith' is more likely, and a damn site less appealing.

Let the boss pick the guy he thinks can take the franchise on for the years post Brady. Jimmy seems that man, and he gets two years at least to develop.

Good call, though I agree they would never both been around at 62. Thankfully we seem to have the better one!

supafly said:

Surely, you don't really believe either of these statements, do you?

1) You honestly believe that the Patriots wouldn't have traded Ryan Mallett for a 2nd or 3rd round pick---let alone your example of a "number 1 pick?" I don't agree. There have been so many reports that have come and gone, we don't know who to believe. If the WAS Redskins were willing to deal Kirk Cousins (much more established and polished than Mallett) for a 2nd and didn't receive any takers, I'm not sure that I buy the rumors that we turned down all of these offers.

2) This high comp pick that you're expecting (the highest it could be is a 3rd) is taken into account by a forumla consisting of

A--Playing time

B--Post season award/MVP, etc

C--Price of contract

D--On field success

What in the world makes you look at this formula and immediately jump to the conclusion that our backup QB Ryan Mallett is going to factor in the compensatory pick formula in an extremely positive way?

It also should be noted that the team's overall free agent losses/gains is the biggest factor in this formula, so we aren't guaranteed anything at all for losing anyone. It will depend on the moves that we make, who comes, who leaves, and the factors from above.

At this point in time, I wouldn't expect Mallett to bring anything more than a 5th--6th round comp pick at best, and that's IF he gets the kind of 2.5--3m dollar per year borderline starter/backup pact that we all assume.

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Re: the comp pick formula:

What you wrote is correct, but it's about 95% average annual contract value, with the rest as "tiebreakers."

I hated this draft class. I wouldn't have taken either one. I would have avoided Manziel because I don't think the guy will ever work to get to be a great QB. He is talented enough to be a stud in college on his raw abilities. He can't do that in the NFL and he seems to be way to entitled to concern himself with being a film rat and working on his skills like elite guys like Brady, Manning, and Brees do.

I would take Garoppolo just because he seems like a guy who will work his ass off to get better. I am not sure we will see either guy five years from now starting on an NFL team, but give me the guy who works his ass off than a guy who will squander his talents because he is a douche.

Rob0729 said:

I hated this draft class. I wouldn't have taken either one. I would have avoided Manziel because I don't think the guy will ever work to get to be a great QB. He is talented enough to be a stud in college on his raw abilities. He can't do that in the NFL and he seems to be way to entitled to concern himself with being a film rat and working on his skills like elite guys like Brady, Manning, and Brees do.

I would take Garoppolo just because he seems like a guy who will work his ass off to get better. I am not sure we will see either guy five years from now starting on an NFL team, but give me the guy who works his ass off than a guy who will squander his talents because he is a douche.

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What more would a rookie QB have to do in the preseason to make you think he could one day start in the NFL?

Obviously Gropp and Manziel have been placed in very different situations, but...the assumption going in to camp would likely have been that Manziel was a character question mark, but vastly "readier" than the Eastern Illinois kid.

Preseason stats lines:

............COMP .. ATT .. YDS .. AVG .. TD .. INT .. RATING
Manziel ..... 14 ... 27 .... 128 ... 4.7 ... 1 .... 0 ..... 77.4
Garoppolo .. 24 ... 37 .... 334 ... 9.0 ... 4 .... 0 .... 129.8

I would never want Manziel on the team even if he didn't cost a draft pick and played for league minimum. So I guess the answer to the original question is I would take Garoppolo.

JG looking really good in preseason and so far vindicating his selection in round 2.
I was always leery about Manziel due to the character and work ethic red flags.
Looks like we picked the right guy for our team.

Whether or not JG can 'bring it' in the regular season is hopefully a question we can avoid answering for another 3 years.

condon84 said:

Let's see...

One played against SEC defenses and excelled.

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So did Tim Tebow, arguably the greatest college QB of all time. The skills which enable a player to excel in the college ranks often don't translate into the pros.

pdangle said:

The kid looks good. I think the pats really refined and nailed their QB drafting strategy. They saw something most did not and went for it. You start with makeup, add the arm strength and accuracy to make all the NFL throws. Which is a given. Add mobility and leadership. Desired but optional. Then add exceptional field awareness, and a lightning release. That's why all JG's receivers seem so open. He just sees that they are open quicker, releases the rock faster and throws ropes on target. IMO it's the first two (awareness, release) which he excels, which might be the new secret formula for QBs. All combined, his skillset just gets the ball in the receivers hands faster. Which is what it's all about in the NFL. Give less time for the DBs to react, more time for your WRs to adjust and cut, and the added bonus of extra room to use your skill after the catch.

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I'll agree with everything except for "throws ropes," arm strength is JAG's true weakness from what i have seen. That said, with mechanics breakdown and coaching, along with some lower body and core conditioning (I promise I am not gym rat, lol), he could probably improve upon that. The kid looks good, all arrows point up in my book.

SB39 said:

So did Tim Tebow, arguably the greatest college QB of all time. The skills which enable a player to excel in the college ranks often don't translate into the pros.

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Sounds like you didn't watch Manziel in college.