Why do we once again have a FB?

shmessy said:

All this goes to the point that BB seems to down on specialists (finally). I've been arguing against the Chris White types. Give me Chung or a Devlin instead of him. Work on teaching a Wendell or Connolly or Devey to long-snap instead of using one of the 53 on Aiken. We need more versatility/Swiss Army knife type players who can fill in CAPABLY when the injuries mount. BB seems to have come around more to that thought after last year's situation.

In know we have been critical of Ben Volin, but he hit the nail on the head this morning:

Bill Belichick prioritizing Patriots' defensive versatility - The Boston Globe

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I'm not sure that's what it means.

Every team could use more versatility/Swiss Army knife type players. But they're hard to find and hard to develop.

But as far as NFL teams go, we've got a lot more than most because BB has emphasized that versatility.

It's why Ninkovich is long snapping in addition to his LB/DE duties. Or how Edelman (and Brown before him) play WR and CB. Hernandez pre-murder investigation was moved all over the place. Connolly can play center or guard. Brady can punt when necessary.

However, continuing with the Swiss Army knife analogy, it's great if you only need to do it one or two times. But if you're doing it all the time, then no, you want something else. A Swiss Army knife corkscrew is fine to open up a bottle or two while you're camping, but if you're a sommelier, you're going to want a professional-grade corkscrew. The scissors are fine if you're cutting some twine or a loose thread once or twice a year, but if you're a seamstress, it's not going to suffice.

Teaching one of the OL to long snap is a good idea. Expecting to replace your full-time long snapper with one of those guys just to save a roster spot is not.

Not sure why this is any issue, the Patriots have been on facebook for years now

I haven't seen as much as I like (which means I've only watched the preseason games once), but I like what I have seen from Devlin so far in the passing game. Perhaps BB is trying to cook up a scenario for the "move" FB. With Vereen as the RB, Devlin as the FB, Gronk at Tight End. Heck even another TE or WR, you could move from a jumbo-style package to a 4 WR package based on pre-snap reads.

ok, someone talk me down from over thinking it here

I would prefer having a hybrid FB. Actually he would be a power runner with some moves along with some length/speed/really good pass catching skills. Like 6'1 240-245 runs with power,has some quickness and elusiveness as well as TE like pass catching skills and of course a tough blocker. Kind of like Hernandez skillset as a fb but much better blocking skills. Best way to find one would be a big RB with some speed/elusiveness and pass catching skills similar to Vereen with blocking skills of a decent blocking TE or normal FB. A passcatching TE who can block and run well out of the backfield would make a nice blocking FB who is also a feared pass catcher and respected ball carrier out of the backfield

The running game will make a comeback, and have a lead fullback blocker is huge. We all want a Mike Alstott type of FB, but we have to understand that their main role is to block.

ivanvamp said:

Ok, totally unrelated question, and I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I've always wondered this. Quarterback, Halfback, Fullback. If they are in an "I" formation, based on the names of the positions, you'd think that it would go:

C
QB

HB

FB

But the normal "I" formation has the HB and FB reversed.

C
QB

FB

HB

Why is that? Just the evolution of the game while keeping the names of the positions the same?

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It goes back to the time when running the ball was the primary way the ball moved and passing it was just a small portion of the game.

The FULLBACK used to be the primary ball carrier with the half-back and quarter-back being blockers for him. Over time, the full-back and half-back switched jobs and the Quarterback began passing the ball more and more.

I would prefer Alstott blocking skills/toughness or close to it but with some more quickness/elusiveness and the feared pass catching skills of a decent TE or a Shane Vereen. That would be an awesome football player while I admit also a tough football player to find. But WOW, nfl defenses would have to respect his blocking/running skills as well as big plays in the passing game.

DaBruinz said:

It goes back to the time when running the ball was the primary way the ball moved and passing it was just a small portion of the game.

The FULLBACK used to be the primary ball carrier with the half-back and quarter-back being blockers for him. Over time, the full-back and half-back switched jobs and the Quarterback began passing the ball more and more.

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Football has continued to evolve towards speed. The rule changes favors speed on offense. WRs can practically run routes in high heels all the way to the pro bowl. Power runners are appreciated but not the single RB unless defenses also must respect his big play running ability. TEs who can dunk the goalpost are favored over a TE who is just a decent pass catcher but great blocker like Miller of the Steelers. Which is why a healthy Gronk is the unquestioned best TE in the NFL. Even if he and Graham are even big play pass catchers( which they are not, gronk is slightly better due to physicality Graham lacks) how can you compare them when Gronk can also block like a Blocking specialist TE and Graham is just a big WR. As a matter of fact I bet there are WRs who can block as well as Graham just because they give effort.

Brandon Spikes in 1987 could have been the best LB in the NFL. However he was offered much less $ than faster LBs that can cover in this fast passing league. No matter how good a run stopper he is most teams see him as a liability in the passing game.

captain stone said:

If Bill is going to more of a 3-4 base (which I still find unlikely), then where the hell are all of the LBs?
And don't say Chandler Jones, Ninko & Buchanan - they're downhill players.
And where the hell are the 3-4 DEs? Vellano, Chris Jones, Worthy? No, No and No. Tommy Kelly & Ben Bass are the only DLmen with the body type of 3-4 DEs, but nobody is projecting Bass to make the
final 53.

Bill needs to be careful that, in his search for both a 3-4 & 4-3 defense, he ends up with neither.

And Shmessy is absolutely correct: we need fewer of these ST-only "mavens" or "demons" or "aces",
and more LBs & Safeties who can actually play, you know, LB & safety.

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BB has spent a lot of time in preseason teaching his defense the principles of his 2 gap 34, even when playing a 43 base once the games start counting. As some of the better x&o posters have pointed out, his 43 tends to be a 2gap, 1gap hybrid up front, with one or two wide bodies 2 gaping while the rest of the dline is playing a more aggressive attacking style.

Do you really think BB will be having Jones dropping in coverage as regularly as in the preseason/practices, or maybe occasionally when he sends a corner and Collins?

This should be made a sticky so that we can refer to it the hundred times a year when a poster wants to reduce the number of players on the team primarily because of their special teams skills.

Every year posters want Belichick to get rid of them. Every year, roster analyses before, during and after the year show that Belichick disagrees. We've almost always had 2 players who we do not want on the field at their positions. A closer examination shows that the number of players on the team because of their special team play is usually about SEVEN (the 3 specialists plus 4 others).

The 4th and 5th safeties, and the 5th, 6th and 7th LB's are almost always special teams "mavens". This is the case also for the #5 corner (Cole last year). Part of the role of the #4 RB is special teams. I suspect that we would go without a 4th RB if he weren't also a special teamer (Bolden and Finch are the candidates for the position).

captain stone said:

And Shmessy is absolutely correct: we need fewer of these ST-only "mavens" or "demons" or "aces",
and more LBs & Safeties who can actually play, you know, LB & safety.

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mgteich said:

Every year posters want Belichick to get rid of them. Every year, roster analyses before, during and after the year show that Belichick disagrees. We've almost always had 2 players who we do not want on the field at their positions. A closer examination shows that the number of players on the team because of their special team play is usually about SEVEN (the 3 specialists plus 4 others).

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When it comes to football and assessing talent, BB probably knew more by the age of 13/14 than I currently know. so, I'll just trust him (which is why I rarely complain about the players he takes as I'm not that skilled an evaluator).

woolster22 said:

BB has spent a lot of time in preseason teaching his defense the principles of his 2 gap 34, even when playing a 43 base once the games start counting. As some of the better x&o posters have pointed out, his 43 tends to be a 2gap, 1gap hybrid up front, with one or two wide bodies 2 gaping while the rest of the dline is playing a more aggressive attacking style.

Do you really think BB will be having Jones dropping in coverage as regularly as in the preseason/practices, or maybe occasionally when he sends a corner and Collins?

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I won't be surprised to see Chandler Jones in coverage from time to time, though I would be surprised
to see him in coverage on 3rd downs. I still believe that, especially in passing situations, we will show
4 players with their hands on the ground, Jones included.

PATSYLICIOUS said:

Not sure why this is any issue, the Patriots have been on facebook for years now

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Or as BB calls it, Myface

shmessy said:

All this goes to the point that BB seems to down on specialists (finally). I've been arguing against the Chris White types. Give me Chung or a Devlin instead of him. Work on teaching a Wendell or Connolly or Devey to long-snap instead of using one of the 53 on Aiken. We need more versatility/Swiss Army knife type players who can fill in CAPABLY when the injuries mount. BB seems to have come around more to that thought after last year's situation.

In know we have been critical of Ben Volin, but he hit the nail on the head this morning:

Bill Belichick prioritizing Patriots' defensive versatility - The Boston Globe

Click to expand...

You would make a better argument if you were teaching a LB to long snap rather than an O lineman, on a punt the LS gets a free release down field he an't be touched for 2 seconds and you can't rush his gap. this give a great chance for him to get down field to cover the punt, I somehow don't see a 300+lbs Olineman being able to do that. It's a sound idea for a FG/XP but not punt. you likely make the player worse at their given role in teaching them and dedicating time to an extra skill. If we want to cut a player to make an extra spot why not cut Ryan Allen and get Gost to punt instead

He's very good in getting out in the flat and blocking on short passes.

Mark Daniels @MarkDanielsPJ
Gostkowski said Ninkovich was the long snapper on the 47-yard field goal. "He’s a good snapper. He’s such a good athlete.”

Develin rules, bow down OP.

Did you see Taylor McCuller against the Panthers? I think we have 2 FBs (one for the PS).

Mack Herron said:

Did you see Taylor McCuller against the Panthers? I think we have 2 FBs (one for the PS).

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I'm fine with giving McKullers one of the 10 PS spots in case Develin gets hurt. Develin has to be on the roster though. What Brady said in the presser the other day pretty much guarantees that.

I hate being late to parties. A couple of reasons, all already mentioned.

- When BB wants to go on 4th down, or move the chains on 3rd down, and you can count on a guy to make 2nd, 3rd, and 4th efforts...Yay. Ditto TDs from the 2. And maybe just maybe we don't have to risk the franchise every time we do it from 1 yard out this way. Brady is the best QB sneak guy in the game. But yanno... would rather risk a Develin than a Brady.

- And that's just 1 piece of it. Contrary to Shmessy's thought, I think BB is always looking for the Swiss Army knife. It's just that swiss army knives are special finds. So if he truly thinks he has one, he keeps him.

- Develin can play football. One hallmark of BB teams is that he spots what he can use a guy for, then gets creative about picking the ways to use him.

Sorry if all this has been said and I am just stating the obvious.