Had they both been available, would you have picked Manziel or Garoppolo?

Ivan said:

Favre at least had the size to weather the beating that comes with that style of play, manziel lacks both the size to take that beating and the maturity to play the position in the NFL. he may mature, i doubt it though, he will never be big enough to take the beating that running around in the NFL carries with it.

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He lacks the size AND the arm.

primetime said:

Bryan Cox, Ty Law, Corey Dillon, Chad Johnson, Aaron Hernandez, Albert Haynesworth, Aqib Talib, Alfonzo Dennard, Randy Moss, Michael Buchanan

The idea that the Patriots of the Belichick era go for squeaky-clean types is wholly fallacious. Hell, the current Manziel controversy is something Bryan Cox famously did right before he joined the Patriots.

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You are cherry picking the exceptions. But lets take a look at those.

1. Corey Dillon, Haynesworth, Talib, Hernandez, Moss and Johnson were at least publicly consummate Patriots.
2. Haynesworth was released and was still very respectful of his time here.
3. Johnson was released and was incredibly respectful of his time here.
4. Law was allowed to leave
5. Cox was allowed to leave after 1 year.
6. Moss was traded when his diva started showing.
7. Hernandez was threatened with being fired after his domestic abuse charges

The Patriots have a "way" that has little to do with being a goody-goody-two-shoes and infinitely more to do with:

A. Team first selflessness
B. Not being a diva
C. Acting in a way that's best for the team
D. Acting in a way that doesn't embarrass the team or cause distractions
E. With the Patriots a players past history is just that -in the past. In fact giving troubled NFL players a second chance is part of the enigmatic Patriots Way in that the Patriots don't care nearly as much about a player's past as they do about how he behaves while they are on their roster.

Polo no question. I saw Polo as about a 2nd round talent and went right were I thought he might. On the otherhand I have been on the Manziel bust train for a long time. I would not have even considered drafting him till round 5 and probably would have let him do undrafted.

I just don't see it. He is gonna get killed at this level due to his style and has no leadership ability.

RayClay said:

Imagine a spot where we were picking and both were available.

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Actually the Pats had the choice of Teddy Bridgewater, Derek Carr and Polo. Only Bortles was gone very early, and if BB wanted Johnny Leaf, he could have traded up to the area Manziel went, for not an exorbitant price. Only Bortles was really out of reach.

In a couple three years Polo might be the answer.

I never would have picked Mansell. Never. Not after he showed up drunk to Peyton Manning's passing camp from partying the night before and got sent home. Nothing good is going to come from an alcoholic NFL QB prospect.

Didn't like Manzel prior to the draft and less now.

MAnzel is not the type of player BB wants especially at QB. HE wants to freelance BB wants intelligence and discipline not a Brett Farve type qb.

rochrist said:

He lacks the size AND the arm.

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How does he lack arm strength? For starters, that same exact criticism was leveled at guys like Brady and Luck, and even Rodgers (who, depending on the scout, had anywhere from avereage to 'good' arm strength), coming out of college. It basically means nothing, provided that you have functional arm strength better than someone like Chad Pennington or Christian Ponder, and you're willing to work on an NFL training regimen to improve it. Most of the elite QBs in the NFL today weren't noted for having exceptional arms in college.

Also, according to his NFL.com draft profile: "Exceptional pro day performance, displaying much improved footwork in the pocket, superb deep-ball accuracy and arm strength and supreme confidence on a big stage."

Ivan said:

I never said a smaller QB couldn't win in the NFL, Brees and Wilson both have Lombardi's, what i said was that they won't hold up running around the way Vick and RGIII do, and that's the comparison for Manziel, he has not shown the pocket composure Brees and Wilson show and I doubt he ever will.

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Did you watch Manziel play at A&M? I only did a few times, because that's all I cared to watch, but he clearly doesn't play anything like RG3 or Vick did in college. The best comp to his style of play is probably Russell Wilson. He isn't a pocket QB, but neither is Wilson. They both scramble to buy time and create lanes to make throws. That exact skill is what's kept Wilson alive the last two years, behind a pretty bad pass blocking line.

FWIW, I think the size criticisms would have had a lot more validity 20 (or even 10) years ago. But in today's NFL, short, pass-first scramblers can succeed just fine. Russell Wilson has proved that about as thoroughly as it can possibly be proven.

rochrist said:

There was no way on earth that BB was going to draft Johny ****up.

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If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that nobody really knows what Belichick would never do. Until it happened, everyone said that he would never trade for Moss, would never trade for Haynesworth, would never trade for Ochocinco, would never sign Revis, would never sign Tebow, would never draft Mallett, etc. etc. If you wrote down everything that people said Belichick would never do, you could probably wallpaper a room with it.

Belichick drafted Alfonzo Dennard almost immediately after he fought a cop, and Hernandez despite him being a notorious ******* who failed multiple drug tests. I think you guys have an unrealistic picture of his personal conduct requirements in potential draftees. If he thinks someone can play, and they represent good value at their draft position, he'll take them even with character concerns.

Less than a picosecond to go with JAG.
At the time I was wicked pissed we "wasted" a 2nd round pick on a QB given needs at safety and TE2

rochrist said:

I wouldn't touch Manziel with a ten foot pole. Even if I was wearing rubber gloves !

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Sounds like a Polish joke, but did you know Aggie jokes are probably recycled ethnic jokes? Do I need to remind you Manziel IS an Aggie joke?

Long List Of Aggie Jokes

Got an Aggie joke: Hear about the Professor of Advanced Mathematics was arrested for indecent exposure when he illustrated how to count to 21?

BradyFTW! said:

Just to get a picture of the full span of possible outcomes, he's also pretty reminiscent of young Brett Favre. Sometimes immature players grow up. And sometimes they don't, and remain dipshits for their entire adult lives, but at least grow up enough to be really good players.

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Favre and Manziel have little in common. Favre is three inches taller, and 30 pounds heavier. Favre sits in the norm for NFL signal callers. Johnny is an undersized, scrawny, shrimp by comparison.

AzPatsFan said:

Favre and Manziel have little in common. Favre is three inches taller, and 30 pounds heavier. Favre sits in the norm for NFL signal callers. Johnny is an undersized, scrawny, shrimp by comparison.

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The post that I was replying to specified that the comparison was strictly re: maturity, without regard for size. My comparison was with the same caveat. Immaturity issues aside, you'd have a hard time finding three more dissimilar QBs than Favre, Leaf and Manziel.

This is all 20/20. Now I'd take Garopollo.

But IMO it would have been a no brainer ant the time and take Manziel purely from a football perspective.

He has a ton of talent (but is an idiot). He would have 2+ years to learn the playbook. Also for those traders out there if he looked good after year 2 and showed he could play he'd be worth a 1st+ to some team who needed Johnny football.

Manziel might turn out to be great qb but he's not our type of guy and not sure he'd be able to learn the playbook. Very impressed with Garp so far. He kinda plays like Brady too, especially how he moves around the pocket. Plus he's not an idiot.

AzPatsFan said:

Favre and Manziel have little in common. Favre is three inches taller, and 30 pounds heavier. Favre sits in the norm for NFL signal callers. Johnny is an undersized, scrawny, shrimp by comparison.

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Undisciplined and not really smart, that they have in common, although I don't reacll Farve being late for 4 meetings during his first camp.

Compare Manzel's demeanor and work ethic to Brady, then ask if you can see BB drafting a QB who don't take his responsibilities seriously.

RayClay said:

Imagine a spot where we were picking and both were available.

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They were separated by 40 picks it is as imaginable as me asking if you would have taken Clowney or Easley at #29.

patsfan13 said:

Compare Manzel's demeanor and work ethic to Brady, then ask if you can see BB drafting a QB who don't take his responsibilities seriously.

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Ralph Waldo Emerson? Lao Tzu? Frank Outlaw? Gautama Buddha? Bishop Beckwaith? Father of Margaret Thatcher? said:

Watch your thoughts for they become words.

Sorry - I don't think it's allowed to post the birdie at the Washington game​

Watch your words for they become actions.

Watch your actions for they become habits.

Watch your habits for they become your character.

And watch your character for it becomes your destiny.

What we think, we become.

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I would have drafted Manziel if he fell to where Garopollo was picked. Not sure BB would have though.

Brady6 said:

They were separated by 40 picks it is as imaginable as me asking if you would have taken Clowney or Easley at #29.

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If you understand what the word imagine means, you understand why I used it. It's a hypothetical.

Here's my problem with the OP... Most people who never heard of JAG prior to the draft will swear up and down (now) that they would have made the pick. And now that Manziel has (further) exposed himself to be a jackass, it's easy to be super smart in retrospect. But there's no way in hell.

Some of the real draftnik fans on this site who did extensive scouting of the candidates will own up to the fact that Manziel was kinda intriguing predraft...remember BB brought him in to Foxboro for a face to face, which caused a stir. And some of them actually realized then what we all figure now as obvious: BB would have been frustrated coaching Manziel, especially off the field.

But still... There's no saying that Johnny Football wouldn't have behaved differently this preseason if he had Brady as a role model, and Belichick as a boss. Gronkowski spends his summers and weekends almost exactly as recklessly as Manziel, and I'm not seeing Pats Fans vilify Gronk as incongruous with the Patriots Way. Talib was an ass on the field, too, and is still remembered fondly by the fans. Spikes had his porno thing. Welker did that media thing mocking Ryan's foot fetish. That stuff makes BB nutty. But doesn't make those players undraftable.

Myself, I was thinking McCarron or Savage all the way, and I saw Garoppolo as a small school risk that I was okay to pass on. But when BB drafted Jimmy, I was cool with that. And if BB had drafted Manziel I would have been totally okay with that, too, because he knows what he's getting into, thinks it can be managed and presumably it would have meant he believes in the upside...which is still there!

Just comes down to: BB knows football and these players better than I ever will. The fact that he pulled the trigger on Polo in the 2nd seemed like a 'meh' idea to me on draft day. But then I was skeptical when he drafted Mankins (who?... a OG in the 1st?), and so I've given up the idea of second guessing him. Garoppolo is another BB pick that got lots of criticism in the media at the time, but starting to look damn smart in retrospect.