How has Jake Bequette been doing?

ATippett56 said:

As for "studs" in the first round, the New England Patriots have five starters on defense that were originally selected in the first round:

Wilfork
Mayo
McCourty
Jones, Chandler
Hightower

In addition, the New England Patriots have three defensive players, currently on the roster, that were originally selected in the second round:

Chung
Wilson, Tavon
Collins

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What's even more telling, IMO, is that of those 5 starters, four of them are really good. Hightower's the only one who has even debatably not lived up to his draft spot. Whatever reservations anyone may have about the Pats' drafting, they kill it in the first round. I know some people like to hand-wave that away by saying that you should nail all of your first-round picks, but there's about 25-30 franchises that simply don't, even when they consistently draft much higher than the Pats do.

BradyFTW! said:

What's even more telling, IMO, is that of those 5 starters, four of them are really good. Hightower's the only one who has even debatably not lived up to his draft spot. Whatever reservations anyone may have about the Pats' drafting, they kill it in the first round. I know some people like to hand-wave that away by saying that you should nail all of your first-round picks, but there's about 25-30 franchises that simply don't, even when they consistently draft much higher than the Pats do.

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First round selections by the New England Patriots organization, currently on the roster, on defense prior to 2014:

Wilfork
Mayo
McCourty
Jones, Chandler
Hightower

Second round selections by the New England Patriots organization, currently on the roster, on defense prior to 2014:

Chung
Wilson, Tavon
Collins

Third round selections by the New England Patriots organization, currently on the roster, on defense prior to 2014:

Bequette
Ryan
Harmon

The excuses for the New England Patriots defense is starting to wear thin.

ATippett56 said:

First round selections by the New England Patriots organization, currently on the roster, on defense prior to 2014:

Wilfork
Mayo
McCourty
Jones, Chandler
Hightower

Second round selections by the New England Patriots organization, currently on the roster, on defense prior to 2014:

Chung
Wilson, Tavon
Collins

Third round selections by the New England Patriots organization, currently on the roster, on defense prior to 2014:

Bequette
Ryan
Harmon

The excuses for the New England Patriots defense is starting to wear thin.

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What excuses? That's a good collection of talent. The only thing that stopped them from being a top-tier unit last year was injuries to Wilfork, Kelly, Mayo, and Talib. There isn't a defense in the NFL that could have weathered that type of injury bug without being turned into an ordinary unit. Going into last season, the only areas where I didn't feel they had a lot of talent were safety and DE depth. If they're even reasonably healthy this year--and especially if it turns out that they've fixed DE depth and interior pass rush issues--they'll be one of the best defenses in the league. And that's even if Harmon plateaus as a decent safety and still starts.

BradyFTW! said:

I guess he's saying that our first round picks should be as good as other teams' second round picks, our second round picks should be as good as their thirds, etc. I may be totally off, there, but if he's not saying that then I really dunno what he's trying to say.

Which... fine, okay, I guess that sorta makes sense. But my response would be that our first round picks ARE better than everyone else's second round picks, our second round picks are better than their third round picks, etc. etc., right down the line. That should generally be true for most teams, and it definitely is true for the Pats. As much as people crap on our second round picks, that's where we got Gronk, Vollmer, and Collins. That's a good haul over the past 5 years, and will look even better if Dobson pans out. Even if there are a handful of Dowlings, Butlers, and Chungs in the mix. It's pretty clear that the Pats hit a rough patch in the draft from 2005-2008 or so, but they've been very good at worst since then.

Secondly, I wish people wouldn't get so caught up in Pete Carroll's drafting. Yeah, when you've spent the last 10 years coaching/coaching against these guys, and scouted/recruited them through high school, you have an advantage. I believe that this past draft class was the first that he never scouted/recruited, since he's now been in the NFL long enough for that advantage to be basically gone. We'll see how he does going forward.

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The team does draft later in the rounds, however let's not forget he has had picks higher through trades. As well as multiple picks in the first 3 rounds several times. As a GM he is great at acquiring more picks while also retaining early picks while getting more for the following draft. His dealing for more picks has been very smart most of the time. And that's the basic reason he got a rep as a great gm. But even then let's keep some things in mind. 2009 trades down and surrenders the pick that became Clay Matthews. OUCH! Then in 2010 he surrenders the pick that became Dez Bryant. TERRIBLE MOVE! If they had those 2 players on the roster the franchise has at least 2 more championship trophies maybe more! Both moves Bellichick is criticized for and rightfully so. But mostly his dealing for extra picks is brilliant. Like trading Seymour at 30 yes old for a #1 that SHOULD HAVE BEEN A TOP 7-9 PICK. STILL PISSED ABOUT THAT!

While Bellichicks dealing and getting an xtra boatload of picks was mostly brilliant, his judgement of talent and drafting is average at best to be polite about it. Dismal at times even. Most of his fans defend his drafting for drafting in the mid to late 20s every year. Which does happen to be true. However he did have an abundance of top 80 picks in many drafts as well as multiple Round One and Round2 draft picks several times. I don't think any team in the NFL has pi$$ed away more picks in rounds 1-3 than bellichick in the last 9-10 drafts.

In 2005 he drafted a very good Guard in the opening round. The rest of the draft was a washout. He trashed the entire 2006 and 2007 drafts. Zero longterm starters. That's 2 straight drafts completely wasted. That is unheard of and note is expected from a genius. Most GMs, almost any gm would have been fired. 2008 he found a pro bowl LB with a. Top 10 pick. After that nothing of use. To be fair he was stripped of a pick. 2009 Was a terrible draft. 4 #2 picks and a pair of #3s and hit on One. He also traded away the pick that became Clay Matthews. 2010 he had a ton of picks but did find Gronk/Hernandez. Gronk was a grand slam minus injuries which he knew were already causing gronk to miss games. Hernandez I don't think was really special before he went all OJ. Just a good open field runner. McCourty is where it gets interesting. Yeah he is a top FS but let's not forget in 2011/2012 he was far from a #1 corner. That was my favorite draft probably because I loved so many players. Bill drafted Spikes over Bowman. Price over Decker/Mike Williams and traded Dez Bryant pick away. Also drafted Jermaine Cunningham over Dunlap/Atkins while we needed edge rushers and DTs. Atkins still haunts me,I had a man crush on him. I hope Easley fixes that but recent pics of Easley looks like a highschool DT. Doesn't even look his listed 288-290 or even close. Anyways Bellichick could have had any players he wanted in that draft. He could have traded up for Suh if he wanted as he had a ton of picks.

In 2011 he could have traded up for any player he wanted. Any 2 players he wanted! Quinn/Julio Jones, green/watt or any combination. And we did need a pass rusher and a #1 WR. The jets handled his guys in the 2010 playoffs mostly due to a lack of a big complete WR and a useless shameful pass rush. He could have got at least a WR or pass rusher. Even his fan on NFL heath Evans said they need difference makers at the prime positions like pass rusher/#1WR and suggested trade up for both. He also missed on Justin Houston who was explosive and raw. Instead Bill got cute and pretty much botched the entire draft. Oh yeah I forgot! Solder and the RBs! Solder is serviceable and he could be replaced rather easy. He also found 2 RBs for his committee of RBs. 1000 yard rushers are all over from late round to undrafted to cheap free agents. There's probably 10 backups at RB right now that could gain 1000 yards. I'm saying in a loaded draft like that how can you trash 3 early round picks on RBs and a backup QB. Drafting at 26 spot is no excuse. Bellichick could have traded up and had any player(s) he wanted in that draft as well as a couple other drafts. There's no excuse for not finding impact players. He preferred more late #one draft picks and #2 picks than trading into top 10-12. He thought he knew something extra and could find very good/great talent later in round one then round but he was wrong on his ideas at the time. As most of them flopped.

In 2012 there's Tavon Wilson debacle as well as Hightower a bust for a round one LB you traded up for. As a matter of fact 4 LBs from that draft that was drafted after Hightower have outplayed him. He was also a Spikes clone without the nasty edge. My guess is Hightower will be considered a bust by week 9-10.

PatFanCraig said:

The team does draft later in the rounds, however let's not forget he has had picks higher through trades. As well as multiple picks in the first 3 rounds several times. As a GM he is great at acquiring more picks while also retaining early picks while getting more for the following draft. His dealing for more picks has been very smart most of the time. And that's the basic reason he got a rep as a great gm. But even then let's keep some things in mind. 2009 trades down and surrenders the pick that became Clay Matthews. OUCH! Then in 2010 he surrenders the pick that became Dez Bryant. TERRIBLE MOVE! If they had those 2 players on the roster the franchise has at least 2 more championship trophies maybe more! Both moves Bellichick is criticized for and rightfully so. But mostly his dealing for extra picks is brilliant. Like trading Seymour at 30 yes old for a #1 that SHOULD HAVE BEEN A TOP 7-9 PICK. STILL PISSED ABOUT THAT!

While Bellichicks dealing and getting an xtra boatload of picks was mostly brilliant, his judgement of talent and drafting is average at best to be polite about it. Dismal at times even. Most of his fans defend his drafting for drafting in the mid to late 20s every year. Which does happen to be true. However he did have an abundance of top 80 picks in many drafts as well as multiple Round One and Round2 draft picks several times. I don't think any team in the NFL has pi$$ed away more picks in rounds 1-3 than bellichick in the last 9-10 drafts.

In 2005 he drafted a very good Guard in the opening round. The rest of the draft was a washout. He trashed the entire 2006 and 2007 drafts. Zero longterm starters. That's 2 straight drafts completely wasted. That is unheard of and note is expected from a genius. Most GMs, almost any gm would have been fired. 2008 he found a pro bowl LB with a. Top 10 pick. After that nothing of use. To be fair he was stripped of a pick. 2009 Was a terrible draft. 4 #2 picks and a pair of #3s and hit on One. He also traded away the pick that became Clay Matthews. 2010 he had a ton of picks but did find Gronk/Hernandez. Gronk was a grand slam minus injuries which he knew were already causing gronk to miss games. Hernandez I don't think was really special before he went all OJ. Just a good open field runner. McCourty is where it gets interesting. Yeah he is a top FS but let's not forget in 2011/2012 he was far from a #1 corner. That was my favorite draft probably because I loved so many players. Bill drafted Spikes over Bowman. Price over Decker/Mike Williams and traded Dez Bryant pick away. Also drafted Jermaine Cunningham over Dunlap/Atkins while we needed edge rushers and DTs. Atkins still haunts me,I had a man crush on him. I hope Easley fixes that but recent pics of Easley looks like a highschool DT. Doesn't even look his listed 288-290 or even close. Anyways Bellichick could have had any players he wanted in that draft. He could have traded up for Suh if he wanted as he had a ton of picks.

In 2011 he could have traded up for any player he wanted. Any 2 players he wanted! Quinn/Julio Jones, green/watt or any combination. And we did need a pass rusher and a #1 WR. The jets handled his guys in the 2010 playoffs mostly due to a lack of a big complete WR and a useless shameful pass rush. He could have got at least a WR or pass rusher. Even his fan on NFL heath Evans said they need difference makers at the prime positions like pass rusher/#1WR and suggested trade up for both. He also missed on Justin Houston who was explosive and raw. Instead Bill got cute and pretty much botched the entire draft. Oh yeah I forgot! Solder and the RBs! Solder is serviceable and he could be replaced rather easy. He also found 2 RBs for his committee of RBs. 1000 yard rushers are all over from late round to undrafted to cheap free agents. There's probably 10 backups at RB right now that could gain 1000 yards. I'm saying in a loaded draft like that how can you trash 3 early round picks on RBs and a backup QB. Drafting at 26 spot is no excuse. Bellichick could have traded up and had any player(s) he wanted in that draft as well as a couple other drafts. There's no excuse for not finding impact players. He preferred more late #one draft picks and #2 picks than trading into top 10-12. He thought he knew something extra and could find very good/great talent later in round one then round but he was wrong on his ideas at the time. As most of them flopped.

In 2012 there's Tavon Wilson debacle as well as Hightower a bust for a round one LB you traded up for. As a matter of fact 4 LBs from that draft that was drafted after Hightower have outplayed him. He was also a Spikes clone without the nasty edge. My guess is Hightower will be considered a bust by week 9-10.

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Now go and find a single team in the NFL for whom you can't cherrypick suboptimal picks in the exact same way.

Look, nobody's claiming that he's perfect. In the post that you quoted, I outright said that the Pats drafted poorly over a four year stretch from 2005-2008. But if the above post is your basis for saying "his judgement of talent and drafting is average at best to be polite about it" then you're simply wrong. Objectively so, unless you can name at least 12-16 other teams who have drafted better over the past five years. And since you can't, that's pretty much the end of it.

Don't even bother replying with anecdotal accounts of where you don't think Belichick did a good enough job, because those are useless. If he's really "average at best", then name the half of the league that does a better job than he does. Otherwise, take note of your inability to do so and revise your opinion accordingly.

I think that Belichick's been pretty decent overall, at least in terms of comparable hit vs miss stats in the rest of the 31 teams. I believe that @Danger Zone posted some stats about a month ago that showed Belichick being in the top 5 (possibly even higher) of all GMs over the past 10 years or so in terms of draft picks. I'm not one hundred percent sure of the exact specifics (timeframe), but I do know that it was somewhat eye-opening in my opinion.

The obvious low point during his tenure, was from '05/'06 through '09. That was ugly.

supafly said:

I think that Belichick's been pretty decent overall, at least in terms of comparable hit vs miss stats in the rest of the 31 teams. I believe that @Danger Zone posted some stats about a month ago that showed Belichick being in the top 5 (possibly even higher) of all GMs over the past 10 years or so in terms of draft picks. I'm not one hundred percent sure of the exact specifics (timeframe), but I do know that it was somewhat eye-opening in my opinion.

The obvious low point during his tenure, was from '05/'06 through '09. That was ugly.

Click to expand...

I agree, although I'd argue that 2009 wasn't exactly bad. It certainly wasn't stellar, but five years after the fact we have two better-than-league-average starters from that draft. In my book, that makes it at least decent, and probably the point where the team's drafting started turning the corner to where it became a real asset in building the roster that's currently constructed.

I think either claim is defensible, though, so I can see where you were coming from. It was generally better than the drafts that came before it, but generally worse than the drafts that came after it.

BradyFTW! said:

I agree, although I'd argue that 2009 wasn't exactly bad. It certainly wasn't stellar, but five years after the fact we have two better-than-league-average starters from that draft. In my book, that makes it at least decent, and probably the point where the team's drafting started turning the corner to where it became a real asset in building the roster that's currently constructed.

I think either claim is defensible, though, so I can see where you were coming from. It was generally better than the drafts that came before it, but generally worse than the drafts that came after it.

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To me, it's more of a continuation of a poorer draft period where we had like, 7 picks in the top 125 selections and came away with ONE starter (Vollmer) who has an injury history.

One would assume that with SIX picks inside of the top three rounds and SEVEN inside of the top four rounds, we would do better than:

2a Pat Chung, SS, Oregon
2b Ron Brace, DT, Boston College
2c Darius Butler, CB, Connecticut
2d Sebastian Vollmer, OL, Houston
3a Brandon Tate, WR, North Carolina
3b Tyrone McKenzie, LB, South Florida
4 Rich Ohrnberger, OL, Penn State

That's a lot of wasted opportunities, although I understand where you're coming from. Vollmer and Edelman offset things a bit, but the sheer number of high picks is what's bothersome to me.

The problem with some of this draft analysis is that people expect performance of an NHL goalie, where a save percentage above .900 is expected, rather than the expected completion percentage of an NFL quarterback (above .600) or a baseball all star (above .300).

For whatever reason these numbers and percentages of hits and misses is thrown out (despite no standard of what was a great pick or a bust), but more remarkably it is done without any comparison to know what is a good or bad percentage.

.900?
.600?
.300?

Without that knowledge, a goalie who is making a save on 88% of the shots he faces seemingly is doing better than the QB who completes 65% of his passes, and both blow away a baseball batter who hits .400.

I would also hesitate to read too much into a period of three or four years for evaluating a team or GM. While the Seahawks have had a nice run the last couple of years, which is a more reasonable expectation: that their trend will continue, or that they will regress to the norm and draft like they have for the rest of their franchise history? The Packers were lauded very recently, and now all of a sudden the vultures are circling in regards to their drafts. Prior to that the Steelers were the gold standard, but not so much anymore - and we all know what happened to Bill Polian after the Colts were said to have been the greatest drafters of the modern era.

The small sample size of a draft - or even three or four of them - makes me skeptical of any grading of the general manger or director of player personnel in regards to those drafts. To me that just scratches the surface.

supafly said:

I think that Belichick's been pretty decent overall, at least in terms of comparable hit vs miss stats in the rest of the 31 teams. I believe that @Danger Zone posted some stats about a month ago that showed Belichick being in the top 5 (possibly even higher) of all GMs over the past 10 years or so in terms of draft picks. I'm not one hundred percent sure of the exact specifics (timeframe), but I do know that it was somewhat eye-opening in my opinion.

The obvious low point during his tenure, was from '05/'06 through '09. That was ugly.

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I agree about that period. But you have to remember the situation. The Superbowl squads were aging, so he tried to extend them with veteran patches usually paid for in draft picks. Then there was the NYJ and NY media farce, that stripped him of a carefully created First Round pick too.

No one gives him any credit for Rosey Colvin, Wes Welker, Randy Moss or Adalius Thomas. Those were only the most prominent ones, but do you recall the failures like Doug Gabriel and the perpetually injured CB, name escapes me, a precurser of Ras_I etc, too?

Part of the dearth of those years was that the heart of those drafts were traded or stripped away.

It is simply impossible to "hit" on all draft picks. The season wins totals in the last decade+ is amazing. Therefore, player selection isn't, nor has it ever been, the problem. The fact that other teams are hungry and have excellent talent evaluators is much more of the story.

BB has missed on draft picks - and if you look closely, he's hit more often than most NFL decision makers.

PatsFan2 said:

The point is other Teams have done better than average with Third Round picks.

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Fencer said:

I would guess that almost half of them have.

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Nice!!

It is not the number of picks that is important. Belichick chose trading down to get more shots at potential players.

OK, so this was Belichick's worst effort? This draft produced 2 top starters and a backup, all of which are still with team 5 years later. Another backup (Pryor) is long gone.

supafly said:

To me, it's more of a continuation of a poorer draft period where we had like, 7 picks in the top 125 selections and came away with ONE starter (Vollmer) who has an injury history.

One would assume that with SIX picks inside of the top three rounds and SEVEN inside of the top four rounds, we would do better than:

2a Pat Chung, SS, Oregon
2b Ron Brace, DT, Boston College
2c Darius Butler, CB, Connecticut
2d Sebastian Vollmer, OL, Houston
3a Brandon Tate, WR, North Carolina
3b Tyrone McKenzie, LB, South Florida
4 Rich Ohrnberger, OL, Penn State

That's a lot of wasted opportunities, although I understand where you're coming from. Vollmer and Edelman offset things a bit, but the sheer number of high picks is what's bothersome to me.

Click to expand...

Bequette plays football, but he isn't a football player.

supafly said:

2a Pat Chung, SS, Oregon
2b Ron Brace, DT, Boston College
2c Darius Butler, CB, Connecticut
2d Sebastian Vollmer, OL, Houston
3a Brandon Tate, WR, North Carolina
3b Tyrone McKenzie, LB, South Florida
4 Rich Ohrnberger, OL, Penn State

That's a lot of wasted opportunities, although I understand where you're coming from. Vollmer and Edelman offset things a bit, but the sheer number of high picks is what's bothersome to me.

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That was a terrible draft class. Look at the 1st rd....

MrNathanDrake said:

That was a terrible draft class. Look at the 1st rd....

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Belichuck didn't make an error in the first round.

mgteich said:

Belichuck didn't make an error in the first round.

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I believe he meant look how bad the overall talent in the 1st round was that season. Not Patriots but big picture.

AzPatsFan said:

I agree about that period. But you have to remember the situation. The Superbowl squads were aging, so he tried to extend them with veteran patches usually paid for in draft picks. Then there was the NYJ and NY media farce, that stripped him of a carefully created First Round pick too.

No one gives him any credit for Rosey Colvin, Wes Welker, Randy Moss or Adalius Thomas. Those were only the most prominent ones, but do you recall the failures like Doug Gabriel and the perpetually injured CB, name escapes me, a precurser of Ras_I etc, too?

Part of the dearth of those years was that the heart of those drafts were traded or stripped away.

Click to expand...

I keep trying to tell you that Adalius Thomas was a free agent acquisition in 2007, but you keep choosing not to believe me

Rosey Colvin was also a free agent acquisition that happened way back in 2003, so I don't think he's relevant to the drafting conversation of 2005--2009.

I will give you (and Belichick) the credit that both Wes Welker and Randy Moss were TRADES that happened in the 2007 season. Other than that, your other examples are not pertinent to the situation, and to take it one step further--it still doesn't let anyone off the hook for the entire period of 2005, 2006, 2007 (Welker/Moss trades), 2008, and 2009.

That's a five year period with one year that was balanced by the trades of Welker/Moss. If you wish to cross 2007 off the list for the exercise I would certainly understand, but either way you look at it, the drafting classes were still pretty lousy for that 5 yr stretch. I'm not choosing to cherry pick or meaning to come down on one of the more successful GMs in the past 10 years. I'm just attempting to tell the truth that they were lousy drafts.

mgteich said:

It is not the number of picks that is important. Belichick chose trading down to get more shots at potential players.

OK, so this was Belichick's worst effort? This draft produced 2 top starters and a backup, all of which are still with team 5 years later. Another backup (Pryor) is long gone.

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No one is saying anything about it being his "worst effort." Those are words that are from you.

My response was to a poster who claimed that it wasn't that bad. If you have to bring Myron Pryor into the conversation to help back the point up, that's not a good sign

We hit on ONE starter in the SIX picks through the high rounds (1-3), who has been seriously injured in two different years here. To me, that's an example that states that the 2009 draft class should be included in the conversation. It's possible that you feel differently.

I apologize. I shouldn't have let myself get sucked into another "our drafts have been terrible" discussion. There is a small group who thinks that Belichick drafts badly. Almost all of them post on patriot message boards. The rest of the world (who, of course counts for nothing), think that Belichick know how to draft, to trade, and in general how to secure talent.

supafly said:

No one is saying anything about it being his "worst effort." Those are words that are from you.

My response was to a poster who claimed that it wasn't that bad. If you have to bring Myron Pryor into the conversation to help back the point up, that's not a good sign

We hit on ONE starter in the SIX picks through the high rounds (1-3), who has been seriously injured in two different years here. To me, that's an example that states that the 2009 draft class should be included in the conversation. It's possible that you feel differently.

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