Malcolm Butler!!!

Marqui said:

It really isn't.

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No, it really is.

Marqui said:

Either way, I was right about Butler and you were wrong.

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Feel free to go back and find anything I said specifically about Butler that was wrong. It certainly wasn't the post where I pointed out your insanity. In fact, I've been talking positively about Butler:

Butler stood out to me in camp.

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http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/the-official-patriots-vs-redskins-preseason-game-thread.1111178/page-7#post-3868389

Butler and Hawkins are the two guys I thought stood out, from what I saw in T.C..

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http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/the-official-patriots-vs-redskins-preseason-game-thread.1111178/page-11#post-3868484

Joey007 said:

I know it's preseason but I'm very unimpressed with what I see from the guys out there, I can't find anything positive that's happened yet

Deus Irae said:

Butler
Moore
Wilfork
Kelly

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In short, you're getting just about everything about my posting wrong. You started with the crazy in the training camp thread. You've continued it here. There's no need for it. If we need that level of insanity, we can go read Jets boards.

patsinthesnow said:

With Ryan and Arrington being full time slot/safety hybrids based on these two games/TC,the only player in the way of Butler starting across Revis is Dennard.

I don't know if there is even a competition between them, but if Butler starts again next week and plays well, nothing would surprise me with BB.

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Luxusdk said:

Infact I think he's number 3 on the outside for the first 4 games. Revis, Dennard and Butler - Browner after 4 games. Both Arrington and Ryan getting snaps NeXT to McCourty at safety, aswell as the nickel job. ( I like the ide with them as part CB part S)

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patman52 said:

We are starting to see Arrington playing more split safety, I think he will become McCourty's B/U saving a spot in the backfield.

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Belichick claims that Ryan/Arrington's work at safety was "more of a formality than anything," and that it was due to the fact that they went with 3 and 4 receiving options that forced them to go to "sub like situations," much more than "usual base sets with 2 safeties."

Make of it what you will. I still think Harmon is our safety.

Ryan/Arrington could provide help there, like in the past, when we face higher passing teams with 3 and 4 decent receiving options.

Bill Belichick says Kyle Arrington and Logan Ryan's work at safety was more of a formality | The Providence Journal

supafly said:

Belichick claims that Ryan/Arrington's work at safety was "more of a formality than anything," and that it was due to the fact that they went with 3 and 4 receiving options that forced them to go to "sub like situations," much more than "usual base sets with 2 safeties."

Make of it what you will. I still think Harmon is our safety.

Ryan/Arrington could provide help there, like in the past, when we face higher passing teams with 3 and 4 decent receiving options.

http://www.providencejournal.com/sp...ns-work-at-safety-was-more-of-a-formality.ece

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Man, the thing that irks me about BB saying Arrington is a good fit at safety because he can tackle just brings me back to the 2010 Dolphins game watching Arrington getting piggy-back rides by B.Marshall all game long. Then again, I guess I should expect that from someone his size against Arrington, but Arrington's tackling has NEVER been something I viewed as a strong suit, quite the opposite.

I'm a much bigger fan of Arrington's ball-skills than I am of his tackling ability, I like both qualities about Ryan better.

I can't lie though when I say I'm kind of liking the hits that Chung can bring at the 2nd safety spot as long as he isn't asked to cover a deep 3rd of half of the field. Let DMC read the play and help whoever he feels needs help deep and the other safety play the run and short stuff.

Edit: And yes, i'm aware this is completely off top for the purpose of the thread.

strngplyr said:

I'm a much bigger fan of Arrington's ball-skills than I am of his tackling ability, I like both qualities about Ryan better.

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I'm not really sold on either player at safety in regular, (whatever that means anymore) traditional 2 safety sets.

I do like the idea of having versatility there vs. teams who have a plethora of receiving options (3 WR sets / 3 WR sets + 1 TE), where we can use speedier CBs to help cover.

I like Arrington's ability to play different positions in the secondary, but I feel that this is his last year here; particularly under that outrageous deal.

strngplyr said:

I can't lie though when I say I'm kind of liking the hits that Chung can bring at the 2nd safety spot as long as he isn't asked to cover a deep 3rd of half of the field. Let DMC read the play and help whoever he feels needs help deep and the other safety play the run and short stuff.

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As much as we all hate the idea of Chung playing again, I will admit that it's possible that he could do better as the more typical "in the box" safety playing closer to the line. I still think we're going to see him get beaten plenty of times, but that may be true no matter who it is.

I would imagine that Belichick has some type of role for him, and I think he stays for sure now.

Maybe this Butler will represent the Patriots a bit better than 2009 second rounder, Darius Butler. Its up to him to unsully the name.

supafly said:

As much as we all hate the idea of Chung playing again, I will admit that it's possible that he could do better as the more typical "in the box" safety playing closer to the line. I still think we're going to see him get beaten plenty of times, but that may be true no matter who it is.

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Hard to argue. At this point, our S2 WILL be beat, no matter who it is, probably often. Chung, in my opinion, brings the biggest game changing capability to the position.

Chung has good ball skills, he knows how to tackle (maybe not take the best angle, but he can tackle), and he is a good special teams player. He's strong, he's fast, and he has the best size of anyone in the secondary not named Brandon Browner, who, by now, most agree is strictly a corner back. Nothing else.

I'm not a Chung fan, don't misunderstand me, but I'm starting to like Chung more than the other options available for that second safety spot. If he's asked to play a lesser role in coverage and asked to lay the wood more often, he won't be bad for the position.

As much as everyone wants to pencil in another player for the role trying to mimic someone from Seattle's defense, that player isn't on the roster. We can only start the players we have. Chung very well may be the best fit.

Fans might just need to accept it.

strngplyr said:

Hard to argue. At this point, our S2 WILL be beat, no matter who it is, probably often. Chung, in my opinion, brings the biggest game changing capability to the position.

Chung has good ball skills, he knows how to tackle (maybe not take the best angle, but he can tackle), and he is a good special teams player. He's strong, he's fast, and he has the best size of anyone in the secondary not named Brandon Browner, who, by now, most agree is strictly a corner back. Nothing else.

I'm not a Chung fan, don't misunderstand me, but I'm starting to like Chung more than the other options available for that second safety spot. If he's asked to play a lesser role in coverage and asked to lay the wood more often, he won't be bad for the position.

As much as everyone wants to pencil in another player for the role trying to mimic someone from Seattle's defense, that player isn't on the roster. We can only start the players we have. Chung very well may be the best fit.

Fans might just need to accept it.

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I'm still under the impression that Duron Harmon gets the main bulk of the S2 reps, but that said, I also think that it may be spread out more than in the past; especially more than last year when the S3 and S4 saw 36% and 2% of the overall reps, respectively.

I just have a feeling that we're going to see more of a rotational role at the position opposite McCourty, but that's just a hunch.

While I'm not quite as high on Chung as you may be, I do think that he'll be in there for plenty of situations over the course of the season. I suppose the main questions are still to be answered though, so we'll know within the next 13 days one way or the other.

Don't be so quick to write off Harmon either.

supafly said:

I'm still under the impression that Duron Harmon gets the main bulk of the S2 reps, but that said, I also think that it may be spread out more than in the past; especially more than last year when the S3 and S4 saw 36% and 2% of the overall reps, respectively.

I just have a feeling that we're going to see more of a rotational role at the position opposite McCourty, but that's just a hunch.

While I'm not quite as high on Chung as you may be, I do think that he'll be in there for plenty of situations over the course of the season. I suppose the main questions are still to be answered though, so we'll know within the next 13 days one way or the other.

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Don't mistake me, I'm not exactly high on Chung, I just don't think anyone else has really separated themselves.

Chung has ball skills that only the corner-safety potential conversions have shown and he also hits harder than any of them. He should be equal to or ahead of Harmon based on knowledge of the defense and well, Tavon Wilson is Tavon Wilson. Ebner isn't really part of the conversation.

I simply like Chung as the LB/S hybrid role better than the other S/CB and feel like the potential cover 3 zone/cover 1 man will override the traditional cover 2 zone/man with 2 safeties and Chung is the best option among the other safeties for the minor role.

I'd personally much rather see a 1 safety defense with extra corners given our personnel over a multiple safety look. Corner is easily a strength, while Safety is not. Very similar to how I think it's obvious we're going to run multiple 3-4 WR sets over 2 TE sets like many posters still seem stuck to. The multiple TE set died when Hernandez thought he could get away with murder. It's not coming back.

The 2nd safety position probably died with Gregory, while he obviously wasn't the most physically gifted player, BB talks him up as he's one of the smartest players that he's ever coached.

2014 will be a lot of Cover 1 with DMC deep or cover 3 with a pair of corners playing deep, the 2nd safety role will be minimized because the CB position is deep.

Makes team. Doesn't start. My prediction.

Either way if a #2 or #3 CB drops in our laps out of nowhere I'm not checking this horses teeth. We've had a bit of bad run with CBs last 5 years, so we're due maybe? Think about it though, have anyone EVER heard of a UFA winning the #2 CB job on a top team? Or crappy team even? I don't recall such a thing. But then I hear this voice... Sudfield, suuuudfield, Sudfieeeeeeeeeld the new poster boy for the "beware of small sample size in the preseason" association 2014 calender. Haha. He looks good though. It would be great to catch a break.

I was on the 'Studfeld' bandwagon last year, but based largely on his showings in practise and the media reports. He didn't really shine in the pre-season games (less than 10 catches in total I think?) though from what I remember. Butler has looked exceptional for a rookie UDFA. I think that's the difference.

I think using Sudfield as a cautionary tale is a bogus comparison. Sudfield flashed with some nice catches, but that was it. He didn't consistently beat his man or make great blocks. We noticed his good plays, because that's the nature of his position.

Butler, on the other hand, has shown consistent coverage and rarely gets beat. As a CB, he is being tested almost every passing play and coming out looking good. I'd be stunned if he suddenly regressed.

pdangle said:

Either way if a #2 or #3 CB drops in our laps out of nowhere I'm not checking this horses teeth. We've had a bit of bad run with CBs last 5 years, so we're due maybe? Think about it though, have anyone EVER heard of a UFA winning the #2 CB job on a top team? Or crappy team even? I don't recall such a thing. But then I hear this voice... Sudfield, suuuudfield, Sudfieeeeeeeeeld the new poster boy for the "beware of small sample size in the preseason" association 2014 calender. Haha. He looks good though. It would be great to catch a break.

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Yes his name is Tramon Williams and he was one of the starters at the cornerback position for the Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers.

Yes his name is Randall Gay and he was one of the starters at the cornerback position for the Super Bowl Champion New England Patriots.

MrNathanDrake said:

I like Boyce. I've been rooting for him. He just doesn't have any sense of urgency for a guy who is on the bubble. He still makes too many mistakes for a guy who has been around for over a year now. He will flash here and there but then he fades into the background. Injuries sure haven't helped his case. Reminds me a bit of Taylor Price in that regard.

Meanwhile, Tyms came out of nowhere and might steal Boyce's spot. Tyms would be a tough guy to cut. If you were to ask me who will help the team more this season, I would say Tyms at the moment. He has good size and he's catching a lot of deep passes, which offers good variety from our "pygmy" WR's. Tyms downfield blocking has also been really good tonight.

Jonas Gray has had a couple nice runs tonight as well. Someone to keep an eye on. Could be competing with Bolden and Finch for that last RB spot.

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Yep, I had Boyce making this team heading into camp but Tyms has clearly outplayed him in the pre-season and most of the reports on Boyce have been underwhelming. gray looked good but they are really taking a long look at Finch who has shown real explosion. I'm not sure they can expose either Tyms or Finch to the waiver wire without losing them.

Tramon Williams was cut out of camp by the Texans in 2006 and didn't start for the Packers until 2008.
Randall Gay was the fourth CB on the Pats out of camp behind Ty Law, Tyrone Poole, and Asante Samuel.

Melvin White started 10 games for Carolina last year, again due to injuries, but he's their #2 CB now.
Chris Harris became the Broncos' #2 CB around midseason 2011 after Champ Bailey got injured, and he started 14 games the next year.
Sam Shields won the nickel spot with the Packers in 2010 and started the first game of the season.
Jabari Greer was the Bills' nickel CB out of camp in 2004.
Same thing for Leigh Bodden in 2003 for the Browns.

So no, couldn't find any UDFA CB that won the #2 job out of training camp.

Any recent UDFA CB, at any rate:

Night Train Lane presumably won a starting job for the Rams out of training camp in 1952, since he finished with an NFL record 14 interceptions (in only 12 games) that year.

Has looked really good as has Tyms but won't get too excited. Remember "Studfeld" and Bam Childress? Has Butler been playing on ST? I haven't paid that close attention to who was out there. I'd say he's a definite lock if he can play ST and doesn't regress much.

Froob said:

Has looked really good as has Tyms but won't get too excited. Remember "Studfeld" and Bam Childress? Has Butler been playing on ST? I haven't paid that close attention to who was out there. I'd say he's a definite lock if he can play ST and doesn't regress much.

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Sean Morey comes to mind.

In any case, Tyms would never active. 4 out of this top 5 would be active: Edelmen, Amendola, Thompkins, LeFell, and Dobson.

Boyce is considered as a possibility for a roster spot because he is our kick returner. Otherwise, he also would be inactive in every game, even if we had one of the WR's out with an injury.

The bottom line is that we could add Tyms after 4 weeks, if there are injuries. Barring two injuries, I would think that we would be waived. He could be signed to our Practice Squad or to another team or to another team's Practice Squad.