Ref on illegal contact: "It's an offensive game."

Rob0729 said:

The thing I don't get is they are going to be throwing flags like crazy to make it an offensive game, but all it does open more opportunities for games to be decided on phantom or ticky-tack PI calls. There were already too many questionable PI calls impacted games last year. There should be exponentially more this year.

If I was an OC, any third and very long not in field goal range I would send all my receivers down the field and have my QB air it out. Odds are good to draw a PI call if they truly are going to crack down. Worst thing that probably happens is an INT that would be like a punt.

If the league is going to throw a lot of flags for PI, they need to adopt the college rules. I mean how is a play where an offense picks up 30 yards on a phantom PI call on 3rd and 8 on a drive at the end of the game with the team on offense being down by a TD or less better than aggressive defense shutting down that play? I guess the college rules wouldn't stop the the third down conversion, but it would only net the offense 15 yards.

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Worst case scenario would be that the QB gets sacked... but hey, there's a 50/50 shot that someone's fingertip grazed his helmet for a free 15 yards anyway, so who cares. First down.

BSR said:

Because you are totally ignoring the superbowl two years previously where they won due in good part to their ability to play defense in that style.

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I'm not ignoring anything. The best defenses in the league will still be the best defenses in the league. The fact that the Patriots had a top caliber defense before the original rules emphasis, and maintained a top caliber defense after the rules emphasis, pretty much proves that point.

They had to adjust their style, but they were still among the best. I expect the same this year. You may think Belichick is a babbling idiot completely unable to adjust to new rules emphasis but I have more faith in him than you. History is on my side.

BSR said:

Plus if you go back through Belichick's history with the Giants he won at least one other superbowl playing that style. I think only someone being painfully obtuse wouldn't recognize the fact that Belichick has had much more success in the playoffs when his team is able to play a physical style. This isn't whining its just recognizing reality. Personally, I don't think this emphasis is going to last into the playoffs so I am not particularly worried.

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Congratulations, now you sound like the "they haven't won a Super Bowl since spygate" crowd. I think only someone being painfully obtuse wouldn't recognize that the Patriots after the (original) rules emphasis have been as good as, if not better than, they were before the rules emphasis.

SB39 said:

I'm not ignoring anything. The best defenses in the league will still be the best defenses in the league. The fact that the Patriots had a top caliber defense before the original rules emphasis, and maintained a top caliber defense after the rules emphasis, pretty much proves that point.

They had to adjust their style, but they were still among the best. I expect the same this year. You may think Belichick is a babbling idiot completely unable to adjust to new rules emphasis but I have more faith in him than you. History is on my side.
Congratulations, now you sound like the "they haven't won a Super Bowl since spygate" crowd. I think only someone being painfully obtuse wouldn't recognize that the Patriots after the (original) rules emphasis have been as good as, if not better than, they were before the rules emphasis.

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How is history on your side? Its pretty clear its not. Prior to rules emphasis 6-0, Two superbowl wins and defense allows an average of 17 pts per game in the playoffs. After rules emphasis 12-8, One superbowl and allow defense allows 21 points per game in the playoffs. If you have paid any attention to Belichick's career you would know that he has pulled off two big superbowl upsets because of his physical press defenses. There is no need to throw up strawmen about him becoming a babbling idiot because nobody is saying anything of the sort. The fact of the matter is that Belichick's team have had their greatest successes in the post season when they have been able to play a physical style.

BSR said:

How is history on your side? Its pretty clear its not. Prior to rules emphasis 6-0, Two superbowl wins and defense allows an average of 17 pts per game in the playoffs. After rules emphasis 12-8,

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Like I said, congratulations on sounding exactly like the "Patriots haven't won since spygate!" crowd - only your logic isn't even as good as theirs since the Patriots have won a Super Bowl since the previous rules emphasis.

SB39 said:

Like I said, congratulations on sounding exactly like the "Patriots haven't won since spygate!" crowd - only your logic isn't even as good as theirs since the Patriots have won a Super Bowl since the previous rules emphasis.

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Your analogy is ridiculous as it would imply that there were little causation with the rules emphasis and a decrease in effectiveness in the Patriot's defense. Its clear that Belichick's secondary has become less and less physical since the rules emphasis and with it less effective. Its once physical secondary was replaced by players that played a different coverage style over time. This style showed it was less effective. Its not only a matter of counting superbowl victories but also points allowed in the postseason, defensive passer rating and other statistical measures.

SB39 said:

I am not saying that bad calls don't happen but, as another poster pointed out, that call had nothing to do with the renewed "emphasis" of a few years earlier.

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It sure as hell did. One team was getting penalizied for ticky tack and/or invalid PI/holding/illegal contact penalties (Pats) while the other team was getting away with murder (Colts).

Bad calls are an unavoidable part of the game. A bad call is a bad call, whether it is throwing a flag on a clean play or not throwing the flag on what should have been an infraction.

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This is precisely why an extra point of emphasis on a such a subjective call is a horrible idea.

The best QB's in the league are still going to be the best QB's in the league. The best defenses in the league are still going to be the best defenses. I know you paranoid homers want to delude yourselves into thinking this is all one giant conspiracy to help Manning and hurt the Patriots but last time I checked, we had a pretty decent guy under center as well who will benefit as much as anyone else from a renewed emphasis on illegal contact.

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1. I believe this is the first time anyone on this forum has accused me of being a homer. This should tell you how off base and desperate your argument is.

2. Nobody has to delude themselves into anything. The original changes made by the competition committee were spearheaded by Bill Polian on Manning's behalf after he got his ass kicked in the 2003 AFCCG. This is something that's well known. It's also the reason for Bruschi's "if you want to change the rules, then change them!" comment a year later. Now that Manning got embarrassed on national television by a similar style of defense, they come out with a point of emphasis on the rules change ten years later. One needn't be a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

3. As I pointed out, recent history has shown that the zebras don't call illegal contact the same way for every team. There will surely be a team that benefits more from it than other teams.

All the whining in this forum is better suited for an Oakland Raiders group. You'd feel quite at home there no doubt.

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That tiny pee pee is bothering you again today?

I'm seriously thinking about writing a hand written letter to the nfl.. I don't care if it gets thrown away. Something needs to be done by the fans..


The only other I thing I thought was.. What if the coaches actually decline all of the defensive holdings?

MossWelkowski said:

I'm seriously thinking about writing a hand written letter to the nfl.. I don't care if it gets thrown away. Something needs to be done by the fans..


The only other I thing I thought was.. What if the coaches actually decline all of the defensive holdings?

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BB would be fined 500k and the patriots would send their first round pick to Denver, make that their first two picks, one for Goodell, and one for embarrassing Manning in the playoffs.

BSR said:

Your analogy is ridiculous as it would imply that there were little causation with the rules emphasis and a decrease in effectiveness in the Patriot's defense. Its clear that Belichick's secondary has become less and less physical since the rules emphasis and with it less effective.

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Everyone's defense is less effective due to the rules change/emphasis.

BSR said:

Its once physical secondary was replaced by players that played a different coverage style over time. This style showed it was less effective. Its not only a matter of counting superbowl victories but also points allowed in the postseason, defensive passer rating and other statistical measures.

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You're clearly not getting the points being made. Everyone's defense is less effective since the refs started increasing the calls, not just the Patriots. Your stat that they went from 17 PPG to 21 PPG proves absolutely nothing because overall scoring has sizably increased across the league over the past decade (for a variety of reasons, not just the rules emphasis). The best defenses in the league are still the best defenses in the league, even if they are giving up 4 PPG more because everyone else is also giving up 4 PPG more.

Furthermore, I submit that it simply cannot be denied that the talent level this team has had on defense over the past 7 years or so is not even close to the talent level they had the previous 7 years or so. Maybe that has something to do with the overall decrease in this team's defensive effectiveness.

I have no doubt that if we could grab the 2003 Patriots defense, bring them into the present day, you'd have the best defense in the NFL. Yes, you would have to adjust their style a bit and yes the PPG they give up would be higher (because overall scoring is higher leaguewide), but that wouldn't change the fact they were the best defense in the NFL.