Tight end Shuffle: Hartsock, Maneri, Terrence Miller in; Jones, Watson, RB Houston out

AndyJohnson said:

Good post.
If you ranked backup TEs, other than a couple of good ones, you can just throw a blanket over the rest of them, because the difference is minor, and with any of them replacing Gronk our offense would change dramatically. Whether that would be a guy catch 14 passes or 23 isn't very relevant to me.

I would love to have a great backup TE, but looking over the league, those guys are getting starters jobs. Yes, we could have drafted a TE, but again, is backing up Gronk a position you use a high pick for (I saw no one that I would consider converting back to a 2 TE offense for) and by the 3rd round, what was left seemed to be about the same as what came as UDFAs.

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I personally think the quality of backup TE's is being underestimated. I think early in the season you'll see Kelce in KC, Bostick in GB, Ertz in Phlilly, Green in SD and possibly Wilson in SEA pushing the starters if not outright winning the starting jobs. Ourlads has Escobar listed as a starter so Dallas is apparently already going to more of a 2 TE offense. Carlson, a 2014 FA, who like Hooman signed a 2 year contract this offseason, will make the near identical amount in 2014 as Hooman will (Hooman has $500,000 guaranteed, Carlson only $100,000) is listed as a starter. Having a better backup than Hooman isn't or wasn't the near impossibility some are making it out to be. Even with limited options at this point, I have to believe they'll make a move within the next week or two to improve depth at TE, especially with Gronk questionable for week one. Only time will tell.

supafly said:

I wonder if Belichick really does take the "unwritten rule" into account---for anyone? In other words, we've seen him grab injured players from the waiver wire before, but would he do it to certain teams? Is there a line that wouldn't get crossed--or is it just open season in any attempt to make the team better?

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When asked about the opinion that it might be inappropriate to claim an injured player from another team, Belichick said, "First of all, there aren't any unwrittens. ... You can't negotiate a contract, release him, and then re-negotiate another contract with him that was already done in advance. I'm sure the Giants weren't doing that. So the player is on waivers, he's on waivers -- ours or anybody else's. I don't know what unwrittens you're talking about. ... Any time you put a player on waivers, you know there are 31 teams out there that can take him if they want him. We all know that. There is no secrets about that."

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http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4723798/belichick-no-unwritten-rules

A fair question, but I have a hard time believing that Belichick has a set of unwritten rules that would override his goal of improving the ball club, but anything is possible.

supafly said:

I wonder if Belichick really does take the "unwritten rule" into account---for anyone? In other words, we've seen him grab injured players from the waiver wire before, but would he do it to certain teams? Is there a line that wouldn't get crossed--or is it just open season in any attempt to make the team better?

No one will agree on this answer due to personal opinion, but it's something I've pondered before.

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I do not think that there are unwritten rules. HOWEVER, I expect that Belichick treats different teams differently. There are positive relationships between Belichick and other teams that benefit the patriots. There are other teams that Belichick especially likes to needle. We can make believe that Belichick should ignore consequences other than that having to do with a present decision. I think that this position is naive.

Of course, Belichick ALWAYS does what he views is in the best interests of the patriots. For example, Belichick thinks that releasing vets early instead of keeping them as insurance benefits the team. It is not clear why this is so, other than to perhaps build better relationships with his current players.

Armchair Quarterback said:

I personally think the quality of backup TE's is being underestimated. I think early in the season you'll see Kelce in KC, Bostick in GB, Ertz in Phlilly, Green in SD and possibly Wilson in SEA pushing the starters if not outright winning the starting jobs. Ourlads has Escobar listed as a starter so Dallas is apparently already going to more of a 2 TE offense. Carlson, a 2014 FA, who like Hooman signed a 2 year contract this offseason, will make the near identical amount in 2014 as Hooman will (Hooman has $500,000 guaranteed, Carlson only $100,000) is listed as a starter. Having a better backup than Hooman isn't or wasn't the near impossibility some are making it out to be. Even with limited options at this point, I have to believe they'll make a move within the next week or two to improve depth at TE, especially with Gronk questionable for week one. Only time will tell.

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You are projecting some guys who have not done much to bust out.
Even then there are only a handful of guys that are really anything significantly different.
John Carlson isn't the answer, even if the starter in front of him stinks.
TE depth sucking does not mean all 32 are awful, it means you have to scrape the bottom of the barrell with Carlson and Escobar (9 catches last year) Bostick (7 carrer catches in 2 seasons) Kelce (0 NFL catches) etc.
You listed 6 TEs above in your attempt to show there is good TE depth in the NFL.
Those 6 guys that were the best you could come up with combined last season to catch 101 passes last year, or an average of 17. Thats your list, not mine. 4 of them combined to catch 16.
If I give you 2 and call them great backups the next 4 best you could find caught 16 passes combined last year.
How can you call that anything but a tremendous lack of depth at the position?

mgteich said:

I do not think that there are unwritten rules. HOWEVER, I expect that Belichick treats different teams differently. There are positive relationships between Belichick and other teams that benefit the patriots. There are other teams that Belichick especially likes to needle. We can make believe that Belichick should ignore consequences other than that having to do with a present decision. I think that this position is naive.

Of course, Belichick ALWAYS does what he views is in the best interests of the patriots. For example, Belichick thinks that releasing vets early instead of keeping them as insurance benefits the team. It is not clear why this is so, other than to perhaps build better relationships with his current players.

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Releasing players early that could still make the team so they have a better chance to find a job is not a Bellechick habit, it is something made up by fans.

AndyJohnson said:

You are projecting some guys who have not done much to bust out.
Even then there are only a handful of guys that are really anything significantly different.
John Carlson isn't the answer, even if the starter in front of him stinks.
TE depth sucking does not mean all 32 are awful, it means you have to scrape the bottom of the barrell with Carlson and Escobar (9 catches last year) Bostick (7 carrer catches in 2 seasons) Kelce (0 NFL catches) etc.
You listed 6 TEs above in your attempt to show there is good TE depth in the NFL.
Those 6 guys that were the best you could come up with combined last season to catch 101 passes last year, or an average of 17. Thats your list, not mine. 4 of them combined to catch 16.
If I give you 2 and call them great backups the next 4 best you could find caught 16 passes combined last year.
How can you call that anything but a tremendous lack of depth at the position?

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Well, you trashed all the guys who did do something too. It's not just me pulling names out of a hat. If you follow the league these guys are expected to be possible starters or see significant playing time. Because you don't know who they are or are hung up on 9 catches doesn't make that less so. And BTW Carlson would be an upgrade over Hooman. You're not acknowledging 2013 starters or high upside players who are possible starters in 2014 as an upgrade over Hooman, you're just saying everybody else stinks. As I said, time will tell.

patchick said:

Totally agree on CJF -- not only was he NOT a 2nd-round talent, if they had been so rash as to draft him there the board would have exploded in cries of "REACH!! He would have been available later!"

As for the the other UDFAs, I'm surprised how many people suggest that could have been some kind of solution to the position. This is a draft where even a stiff like Lynch went in round 5. Sure, statistically it's likely that one of the many UDFAs will develop into something, but even that something will probably be the next Michael Hoomanawanui, not an immediate legit backup to Gronkowski.

IMO if you want to argue that the Pats "ignored opportunities" at TE, free agency is the only place to look.

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I would've drafted Lynch before I drafted Fleming, that's for sure. And to claim that none of the available UDFA TEs would've fared any better here than Watson & Jones is wishful thinking, at best.

AndyJohnson said:

Releasing players early that could still make the team so they have a better chance to find a job is not a Bellechick habit, it is something made up by fans.

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Completely made up?

You mean just wishful thinking by doe-eyed fans that their coach has a heart?

Belichick after releasing TE Marcus Pollard said:

"There are still a couple of preseason games left and time before the season opener. I think there are some other teams that are looking for tight ends, and maybe there is a better opportunity for him somewhere else. We felt like, in fairness to him and out of respect for Marcus and what he has done in his career —he's had an outstanding career, coming from a small school, and has become a very productive player - he deserved that."

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98% sure Belichick made very similiar comments in a Football Life -if framed in broader philosophical terms.

Danger Zone said:

98% sure Belichick made very similiar comments in a Football Life -if framed in broader philosophical terms.

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That is fine but that was a player who was not going to make the team. My response was to the idea that he would cut a guy who stood a chance if making the team so he could catch on elsewhere
I have no doubt he will let a guy loose as soon as he knows he isn't in the plans. What i was responding to was the implication that he would cut a guy who still had a chance to make the team because he was behind in the battle.

Christian Fauria said he is willing to suit up @ TE

Everyone Ive ever seen mention this has always used it to defend Belichicks timing about a premature release when keeping the veteran for that few extea weeks would have offered the team some injury insurance/depth.

Steve Maneri, Part Deaux = Fail.

Try something else, Bill.

Maneri blocked really well tonight. Sealed the edge on a lot of those cutback runs that sprang Gray for a bunch of yards. Yeah, he was to blame for the interception without question, but you have to take into account the fact that he just joined the team less than a week ago.

captain stone said:

And to claim that none of the available UDFA TEs would've fared any better here than Watson & Jones is wishful thinking, at best.

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Heavens, Cap'n, I would never claim that! Of course, some of the other UDFAs would have fared better. Heck, just making it to the 2nd preseason game would have qualified.

Here's what I said, and still believe:

patchick said:

As for the the other UDFAs, I'm surprised how many people suggest that could have been some kind of solution to the position.
...
Sure, statistically it's likely that one of the many UDFAs will develop into something, but even that something will probably be the next Michael Hoomanawanui, not an immediate legit backup to Gronkowski.

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IOW, the big complaint is that Hooman isn't a quality backup to Gronk. I'm skeptical that better trawling in the UDFA pond would have yielded a 2014 TE better than Hooman.

Acknowledging that priority UDFAs choose their teams rather than the other way around, are there 2-3 players who you think could have stabilized the #2 TE spot?

primetime said:

Maneri blocked really well tonight. Sealed the edge on a lot of those cutback runs that sprang Gray for a bunch of yards. Yeah, he was to blame for the interception without question, but you have to take into account the fact that he just joined the team less than a week ago.

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I am still hoping Dustin Keller is healthy to play and the Patriots sign him (1yr is not out of question).

So far all of the TEs Patriots has brought in are ZERO's.

zipster9 said:

I am still hoping Dustin Keller is healthy to play and the Patriots sign him (1yr is not out of question).

So far all of the TEs Patriots has brought in are ZERO's.

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Yeah, they've been nothing short of terrible. That Hooman can miss time and still come back and retain his spot on the roster as the TE2 speaks volumes to just how badly the other options have sucked. If the team doesn't make another move, then pray that Gronk doesn't get injured again.

patchick said:

Acknowledging that priority UDFAs choose their teams rather than the other way around, are there 2-3 players who you think could have stabilized the #2 TE spot?

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The following UDFAs might or might not have Stabilized the position, but they at least
might have Improved it:

Gator Hoskins
Anthony Denham
Marcel Jensen
Jake Murphy
Mike Flacco
Jordan Najvar
Xavier Grimble
Trey Burton
Blake Annen
Jake Pederson

And I still don't know why Justin Jones & Asa Watson were so quickly given the heave-ho in favor of
Maneri, Hartsock & Terrence MIller.

primetime said:

Maneri blocked really well tonight. Sealed the edge on a lot of those cutback runs that sprang Gray for a bunch of yards. Yeah, he was to blame for the interception without question, but you have to take into account the fact that he just joined the team less than a week ago.

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And that there is zero chance he will be split out and the first read in a real game.
His ONLY job as the third TE will to block. Ok maybe a play action pass from the 1.
He should solely be judged on that as well as the fact that his experience as an OT can save a roster spot and maybe game day active spot because he can be an emergency OT.

captain stone said:

Steve Maneri, Part Deaux = Fail.

Try something else, Bill.

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Why?
He blocked very well. That's his job.
I think he makes the team.